Booming Blade + Extra attack

[Douche]

I'm sure this has been answered elsewhere.... but can you use booming blade and then still have your extra attack?

Say a bladelock has taken thirsting blade as an invocation - then he casts booming blade. That spell costs one action. He doesn't get another attack in, does he? What if he missed? Can you declare BB after you hit?

Asking for a friend who just started playing. Trying to help him optimize since he has some conflicting strategies... Also, would you recommend Agonizing Blast to a bladelock?

[SliceandDiceKid]

No dude. You use your action to cast the cantrip. You aren't taking the attack action...

No
You can't attack, then change your mind about what action you were taking.

If he wants to use his pact weapon AND eldritch blast regularly, agonizing blast could be a really good invocation (for a well-rounded character). Honestly, if you're optimizing, repelling blast is probably better (especially early level or if his/her cha is 15 or less).

[PeteNutButter]

Repeat of above. BB is a cantrip, not the attack action. It does not benefit from extra attack nor can you do anything like TWF, after using it since you didn't take the attack action.

Agonizing blast is good to the point of out-classing the bladelock's melee attacks at various levels. If it were me, I'd probably look for other invocations, just so I would stick to swinging my weapon, and not be tempted by doing more damage at range.... That being said it is very good.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

To use BB and get an attack in, you'd need to be a level 7 Eldritch Knight or a level 14 Valor Bard.

[Arkhios]

To use BB and get an attack in, you'd need to be a level 7 Eldritch Knight or a level 14 Valor Bard.

It wouldn't still be extra attack as the class feature, but a bonus action to make an attack in both cases.

To answer the OP, no.
BB is a spell (cantrip) that is cast as an Action. The spell itself includes the attack with a weapon. The spell doesn't give you Attack Action which is just one option for your Action on your turn. You used your Action to cast a Spell. You can't get another Action unless you are a 2nd level fighter who uses his Action Surge.

[SliceandDiceKid]

To use BB and get an attack in, you'd need to be a level 7 Eldritch Knight or a level 14 Valor Bard.

More important than saying it can be done, is the distinction for the general reason it cannot be done.

Yes, eldritch knight and valor bard can pull it off with SPECIFIC class features that modify the base mechanics of the game.

[SliceandDiceKid]

It wouldn't still be extra attack as the class feature, but a bonus action to make an attack in both cases.

To answer the OP, no.
BB is a spell (cantrip) that is cast as an Action. The spell itself includes the attack with a weapon. The spell doesn't give you Attack Action which is just one option for your Action on your turn. You used your Action to cast a Spell. You can't get another Action unless you are a 2nd level fighter who uses his Action Surge.

Or the target of HASTE!!!! <33333333

And again, to OP, it's CRUCIAL to understand the basic action economy of 5E for new and veteran players. If there's any combat in your campaign, it's the first thing players should learn.

1 action
1 bonus action
1 move action

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

More important than saying it can be done, is the distinction for the general reason it cannot be done.

Was already covered by previous posters. Was simply adding.

[RickAllison]

Or the target of HASTE!!!! <33333333

And again, to OP, it's CRUCIAL to understand the basic action economy of 5E for new and veteran players. If there's any combat in your campaign, it's the first thing players should learn.

1 action
1 bonus action
1 move action

And the reaction! Though there isn't a move action anymore, just movement.

Other action options that can show up but are dependent on certain circumstances are Action Surge actions, Haste actions, and Legendary actions (for powerful NPCs).

[SliceandDiceKid]

And the reaction! Though there isn't a move action anymore, just movement.

Other action options that can show up but are dependent on certain circumstances are Action Surge actions, Haste actions, and Legendary actions (for powerful NPCs).

Sorry for saying move action instead of movement. Also, omitted reaction, because it isn't something a player can do on their turn.

[PeteNutButter]

Sorry for saying move action instead of movement. Also, omitted reaction, because it isn't something a player can do on their turn.

Umm, actually... ever see the college humor sketches? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qam4iiya1q0&list=PL7TikPw7P73B83a1-6Y6RO2F8s0aoOv2T

You can totally use a reaction on your turn, such as counterspelling a counterspell, or taking an opportunity attack against a foe fleeing from your dissonant whispers, etc...

[RickAllison]

Sorry for saying move action instead of movement. Also, omitted reaction, because it isn't something a player can do on their turn.

True, though it is an important part of an action economy. In a session yesterday, my minotaur got toasted by a black dragon's Acid Breath for more than half his health because he decided to take an attack of opportunity rather than hold back a reaction for Absorb Elements. Did not pay attention to action economy there...

[DanyBallon]

Actually if you want to be really accurate, a round is:

- moving a number of feet equal to your movement score
- 1 Action
- up to 1 bonus action (you only get one if something gives you one)
- up to 1 reaction (you only get one under certain conditions)

[SliceandDiceKid]

Umm, actually... ever see the college humor sketches? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qam4iiya1q0&list=PL7TikPw7P73B83a1-6Y6RO2F8s0aoOv2T

You can totally use a reaction on your turn, such as counterspelling a counterspell, or taking an opportunity attack against a foe fleeing from your dissonant whispers, etc...

If someone counterspells your spell (assuming it isn't a cantrip), you cannot counterspell it as a reaction on your turn because you've already cast a spell on your turn.


My bad:

"Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else’s." PHB

[PeteNutButter]

If someone counterspells your spell (assuming it isn't a cantrip), you cannot counterspell it as a reaction on your turn because you've already cast a spell on your turn. I've never heard of using a reaction on your own turn, and as a DM, wouldn't allow it at my table.

It's RAW allowed. Check phb page 202 again. It's restriction on more than one noncantrip spell is for bonus action casting, nothing about reactions.

Here is the official ruling saying its legit: http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.0.pdf

[Douche]

Yeah, guys, I figured there was no way to get that extra attack in.. That's why I offered to help the dude clean up his abilities n such.

We're level 6, fyi. I just told him to drop booming blade and do fighter 2/warlock x, since that's a pretty common build. He wants to be a polearm combatant and use warlock spells to buff himself, pretty much (so a gish?)

[SliceandDiceKid]

It's RAW allowed. Check phb page 202 again. It's restriction on more than one noncantrip spell is for bonus action casting, nothing about reactions.

Here is the official ruling saying its legit: http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.0.pdf

Already fixed it. Is that only regarding bonus action casting? That's a foolish distinction...

[PeteNutButter]

Already fixed it. Is that only regarding bonus action casting? That's a foolish distinction...

It's intentional. Reaction casting shield for an enemy's AoO, counterspell etc are all defensive. The bonus action cantrip rule is to prevent super nova sorcery.

I guess they let it work with action surge as well just since its a once per rest ability.

[SliceandDiceKid]

It's intentional. Reaction casting shield for an enemy's AoO, counterspell etc are all defensive. The bonus action cantrip rule is to prevent super nova sorcery.

I guess they let it work with action surge as well just since its a once per rest ability.

1/rest until high level when it's 2/rest.

My issue is that someone with a brain and ambition will action surge while hasted and triple fireball...

Battlemaster3/WizardX would wreck the world in mid levels.

[DanyBallon]

1/rest until high level when it's 2/rest.

My issue is that someone with a brain and ambition will action surge while hasted and triple fireball...

Battlemaster3/WizardX would wreck the world in mid levels.

I know it's an houserule, but as simple fix, is to say that a spell take some toll on the body and prevent you to cast more than one on your turn (or round if you want to be more restrictive). This way, however how many action you can get in a turn, a character won't be able to cast more than one spell (cantrip do not count as they do not require much on the caster).

Until I saw the Sage Advice anwser, I thought that was the intent behind the limitation about spell as bonus action.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I know it's an houserule, but as simple fix, is to say that a spell take some toll on the body and prevent you to cast more than one on your turn (or round if you want to be more restrictive). This way, however how many action you can get in a turn, a character won't be able to cast more than one spell (cantrip do not count as they do not require much on the caster).

Until I saw the Sage Advice anwser, I thought that was the intent behind the limitation about spell as bonus action.

Naw, I'm sticking to the rules as closely as I can manage. Just means my players will face more evil eldritch knights and get BURNED. A lot.

Edit: Also haven't looked at haste much. Can't cast a spell with it.

[PeteNutButter]

1/rest until high level when it's 2/rest.

My issue is that someone with a brain and ambition will action surge while hasted and triple fireball...

Battlemaster3/WizardX would wreck the world in mid levels.

Fortunately haste doesn't allow any extra spell casting. There is a short list of options of what you can do with your haste action: Single attack, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.

I think the whole Action Surge casting is pretty balanced by putting the wizard behind on spells for most of his career.

[DracoKnight]

I'm sure this has been answered elsewhere.... but can you use booming blade and then still have your extra attack?

Say a bladelock has taken thirsting blade as an invocation - then he casts booming blade. That spell costs one action. He doesn't get another attack in, does he? What if he missed? Can you declare BB after you hit?

Asking for a friend who just started playing. Trying to help him optimize since he has some conflicting strategies... Also, would you recommend Agonizing Blast to a bladelock?

I'm gonna be controversial and say: "YES!"*

*This is not however, from the Thirsting Blade invocation. Warlock 17/Sorcerer 3 allows this. In fact, if he grabs twin and quicken metamagic, then he can have 3 attacks a round. And if he sacks out spell slots for sorcery points, he's fine.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I'm gonna be controversial and say: "YES!"*

*This is not however, from the Thirsting Blade invocation. Warlock 17/Sorcerer 3 allows this. In fact, if he grabs twin and quicken metamagic, then he can have 3 attacks a round. And if he sacks out spell slots for sorcery points, he's fine.

I love this! But wouldn't you be better off grabbing action surge from 2-3 fighter rather than finishing out warlock? If you're utilizing booming blade, screw extra attack. I'd stop with warlock pretty early. More sorc is the way to go (OP requested optimized).

[PeteNutButter]

I'm gonna be controversial and say: "YES!"*

*This is not however, from the Thirsting Blade invocation. Warlock 17/Sorcerer 3 allows this. In fact, if he grabs twin and quicken metamagic, then he can have 3 attacks a round. And if he sacks out spell slots for sorcery points, he's fine.

He'd have to hit a different enemy with one of the attacks, and he'd be able to do that all of one round before having to swap out spells (costing a bonus action, and getting only 3 sorcery points for his 5th lvl spells) on subsequent rounds.

As both Slice and Dice, and I mentioned earlier, you have to go heavy on sorcerer to make this strategy worth while.

[Serket]

Yeah, guys, I figured there was no way to get that extra attack in.. That's why I offered to help the dude clean up his abilities n such.

We're level 6, fyi. I just told him to drop booming blade and do fighter 2/warlock x, since that's a pretty common build. He wants to be a polearm combatant and use warlock spells to buff himself, pretty much (so a gish?)

Well, right now, at fighter 2/warlock 4, he doesn't have an extra attack. So Booming Blade would be useful.

Even when he does have an extra attack, Booming Blade still has its moments. It doesn't do as much damage as 2 attacks or 2+bonus (with feat), but if you really want someone to stand still it can be handy. Or if you're spending your bonus actions on something else, it might be better than an attack action.

[R.Shackleford]

Repeat of above. BB is a cantrip, not the attack action. It does not benefit from extra attack nor can you do anything like TWF, after using it since you didn't take the attack action.

Agonizing blast is good to the point of out-classing the bladelock's melee attacks at various levels. If it were me, I'd probably look for other invocations, just so I would stick to swinging my weapon, and not be tempted by doing more damage at range.... That being said it is very good.

In all honesty they should have worked it out so that you could cast Eldritch blast and replace a bolt with a weapon attack. Perhaps only add Str or Dex (or other boosts) l to the weapon damage if you have the Cha to Eldritch Blast.

[PeteNutButter]

In all honesty they should have worked it out so that you could cast Eldritch blast and replace a bolt with a weapon attack. Perhaps only add Str or Dex (or other boosts) l to the weapon damage if you have the Cha to Eldritch Blast.

Yeah, a 7th level Eldritch Knight with a couple warlock levels is pretty nasty, being able to make an attack and do his blast. Works best with a bow, and ultimately is beaten out by sorcerer warlock, but it is not resource dependent.

[NewDM]

Yeah, guys, I figured there was no way to get that extra attack in.. That's why I offered to help the dude clean up his abilities n such.

We're level 6, fyi. I just told him to drop booming blade and do fighter 2/warlock x, since that's a pretty common build. He wants to be a polearm combatant and use warlock spells to buff himself, pretty much (so a gish?)

Booming Blades damage scales with extra attacks other classes get. It increases by 1d8 (to both damages) at 5th, 11th, and 17th. If you can force the movement damage, it gets pretty devastating. weapon+3d8 + 4d8 average (weapon + 31.5) per round.

[PeteNutButter]

Booming Blades damage scales with extra attacks other classes get. It increases by 1d8 (to both damages) at 5th, 11th, and 17th. If you can force the movement damage, it gets pretty devastating. weapon+3d8 + 4d8 average (weapon + 31.5) per round.

That damage gets crushed by any character even remotely optimized doing multiple attacks. 5 attacks w a hand crossbow is 1d6+5+10 for sharpshooter is 92.5 before factoring in any other possible bonuses. Magic weapons/ammo screw even more in favor of multiple attacks. Not to mention they are more linearly efficient, by not being all or none and can be spread around multiple foes. And they don't rely on making the enemy choose to move. Damage is similar for GWM/Polearm Master.

Even ignoring the OP sharpshooter/GWM feats, any character that makes two attacks +1 bonus action attack will end up with more damage than just a booming blade. A level 17 barb even without a bonus action attack will deal 2d6+9 per swing, for a total of 32.

[bid]

That damage gets crushed by any character even remotely optimized doing multiple attacks. 5 attacks w a hand crossbow is 1d6+5+10 for sharpshooter is 92.5 before factoring in any other possible bonuses.
Heck you don't even need a feat. Dueling style is enough for a high level fighter.
- 4x 1d8+7 = 46
- 1d8+7 + 3d8 + 4d8 = 43

[SliceandDiceKid]

That damage gets crushed by any character even remotely optimized doing multiple attacks. 5 attacks w a hand crossbow is 1d6+5+10 for sharpshooter is 92.5 before factoring in any other possible bonuses. Magic weapons/ammo screw even more in favor of multiple attacks. Not to mention they are more linearly efficient, by not being all or none and can be spread around multiple foes. And they don't rely on making the enemy choose to move. Damage is similar for GWM/Polearm Master.

Even ignoring the OP sharpshooter/GWM feats, any character that makes two attacks +1 bonus action attack will end up with more damage than just a booming blade. A level 17 barb even without a bonus action attack will deal 2d6+9 per swing, for a total of 32.

^^^^^^This

[R.Shackleford]

^^^^^^This

Yes and no.

Yes that is more damage than what a caster will do.

However, no it doesn't matter.

The game isn't balanced around doing *All the damage*. You are going beyond the scope of what the game is balanced around. What enemy HP is balanced around.

CR 6 Cyclops has 140 HP (give or take some).

Any amount of damage between 71 to 139 is wasted. It will take two hits at 70 damage to kill the Cyclops. It will take two hits to kill the Cyclops at 139 damage too.

So just because you deal more damage doesn't mean that the fight will be over faster unless you deal so much damage you go past a specific HP benchmarks.

These benchmarks are where you can take out a creature in less turns or rounds.

Dealing with the above, the Cyclops has a benchmark 50% of 70 damage for a 2 turn enemy death. Dealing more than 50% but less than 100% doesn't matter.

The benchmarks are essentially 25% (4 attacks), 33.333% (3 attacks), 50% (2 attacks), 100% (1 attack) target HP.

Doing in between these benchmarks doesn't really matter unless you have to make up for someone not meeting the same benchmark.

So while the fighter/barbarian can do a lot of damage, if they aren't in a different benchmark then it doesn't matter. This far in actual game play most damage type characters stay in the same benchmarks.

Note: I don't typically play with theory crafting so this has come from actual game experiences.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Yes and no.

The benchmarks are essentially 25% (4 attacks), 33.333% (3 attacks), 50% (2 attacks), 100% (1 attack) target HP.

Note: I don't typically play with theory crafting so this has come from actual game experiences.

Dear Rusty Shackleford,
I appreciate your feedback and delightful username. I've been meaning to comment on your name for a while, now.

The huge amounts of damage aren't just about the one big enemy. If your DM (not saying yours does) excludes low CR monsters as you level up, he's doing it wrong. You'll still need to dish 20ish damage per attack sometimes to single shot the little guys your caster's AOE didn't get to. I see what you're saying, but I believe this




If you can force the movement damage, it gets pretty devastating. weapon+3d8 + 4d8 average (weapon + 31.5) per round.

was what we were responding to directly.

Devastating is a bit of an exaggeration.

[R.Shackleford]

Dear Rusty Shackleford,
I appreciate your feedback and delightful username. I've been meaning to comment on your name for a while, now.

The huge amounts of damage aren't just about the one big enemy. If your DM (not saying yours does) excludes low CR monsters as you level up, he's doing it wrong. You'll still need to dish 20ish damage per attack sometimes to single shot the little guys your caster's AOE didn't get to. I see what you're saying, but I believe this


If you have huge damage and attack smaller HP enemies... Say they have 20 HP and you deal 93. That 21 to 93 damage is wasted. You are going way beyond what you need.

A fireball will do 28 damage on average (dex save half but with how low enemy saves are this won't be saved against all that much) the chances of doing an average of 28 damage is pretty high.

That 28 damage is equal to that 93 damage because it passes that 100% benchmark. That 93 damage has a chance of being 0 (miss AC or roll a 1) but that fireball has a chance of being 14, might have a chance of being 7, and virtually no chance of being 0 (you don't cast fireball on what you think are immune creatures).

I'm not saying doing more damage isn't fun or awesome... Just that I less you go into vastly different benchmarks then it doesn't really matter.


Also, thanks, if you ever need to refill your pocket sand you know where to find me.

[SliceandDiceKid]

If you have huge damage and attack smaller HP enemies... Say they have 20 HP and you deal 93. That 21 to 93 damage is wasted. You are going way beyond what you need.


Also, thanks, if you ever need to refill your pocket sand you know where to find me.

Sorry.
My response wasn't explicit.

I'm not talking about 90 damage to kill one guy. You have multiple attacks. You can split them up over several individual enemies as needed. We've all seen horrible overkill. I've also had a DM laugh (more than a few times) because we were one point shy of killing the big bad.

Also, yeah it's cool to dish tons of damage. Our rogue often tells the DM he doesn't care that the guy is dead no matter what, he wants to know how much he crit for lol.

Your points are valid.
Just trying to put booming blade in context.

[PeteNutButter]

Yes and no.
Doing in between these benchmarks doesn't really matter unless you have to make up for someone not meeting the same benchmark.


This is what you'll be doing practically always. Since you as players should have no knowledge of what your foe's hp are more is always better.

There are countless circumstances where your simplification will run into what I quoted above. Many fights your casters are just plinking with cantrips to conserve spells, meaning the fighter types have to deal the real damage.

Bottom line up front, is there is no way you can plan around benchmark damage. You can't be like, "well lots of enemies have 100 hp so if everyone in the party of 4 does an average of 25 then we are good to down one a round." What if the foe has 120 hps? What if one of you misses or rolls low on damage? If two PCs do hit and managed to pump their DPR to 35 and the foe only had 70 then you just killed it.

Since you don't know what you need the best thing to do is to have the most you can. A 20th Level Eldritch Knight can't defend using Booming Blade and 1 bonus action attack instead of taking his 4 attacks with the argument of "it's good enough". That's bat**** nonsense.

Even if you do have perfect knowledge doing 139 damage to the cyclops is not wasted. It just means the wizard can firebolt him to kill him instead of wasting a spell, and then the rest of the party can move on to other foes. The only damage that's wasted is whatever excess the firebolt would have done ~5-20. I'd happily waste 5-20 damage to potentially do 139, because if you can do 139 a round, you can likely also do 140.

Since you were defending the cantrips' damage, I'd suspect you'd actually have more wasted damage using the cantrips over extra attacks since you can split the extra attacks up. That's what I meant by not being as linearly efficient.

RNG + imperfect knowledge means your best play is to do as much as possible. Raise your hand if you ever seen a player get killed (or at least knocked out) by a monster with only 1 hp left. *Raises hand*

To really make a competent party to utilize your benchmark points you'd have to have the following:

Pure authority/Pure unity on party build decisions.
Perfect knowledge of foes, present and future.
A detailed analyses of the standard deviation and other statistical data.

And once you have all that you will look at the data and realize that if I can do an average of 3 more damage a round it increases my chances of hitting my benchmark for that round by x%.

In your example, using booming blade over extra attacks cuts your damage in about half or a third, depending on other optimizations. If everyone in the party did 1/2 or 1/3 of their potential damage... benchmarks would be pretty low. If everyone does 20-40 damage the cyclops dies in 3-7 PC turns, if everyone does 50-70 damage the cyclops dies in 2-3 PC turns.

[Theodoxus]

I get the fascination with Booming Blade, I really do - having built a number of characters around that spell... but warlock isn't one of them. Without some serious feat support (Spellsniper and PAM at a minimum), you're just not going to get the oomph needed from BB that you could otherwise get from an optimized EB.

BB works best on a single attack chassis. Secondarily as a Twinned attack, but at that point, you might as well have picked up GFB instead, as it will require 2 adjacent critters anyway.

I've found, through playing, that BB on a swashbuckling rogue brings the absolute most value to the cantrip. Running up to a lone bad guy, popping BB and getting sneak, and a free disengage - with the hope that the baddie chases you... nothing sweeter.

So, I guess the question is, for this new player - what is he looking for more? A decent warlock because he likes the class, or the best use of BB because he likes the cantrip?