What level would you make this spell?

[Zaq]

Consider the following theoretical spell. It's possible that a spell like this already exists, but I don't recall ever seeing any printed spell that does exactly what this one does. Assume that no one is trying to actively abuse this spell (no resetting portable traps of it, no use-activated items, no attempting to get around the wording preventing it from working on damage from a friendly source, etc.). It would probably be on the spell list of casters you'd generally expect healing and protection from (Clerics, Healers, maybe Paladins, possibly Bards—maybe others as appropriate, but that's less important).

Reversal of Fortune
Abjuration
Spell level: ???
Casting time: 1 standard action
Components: V
Target: One creature
Range: Close
Duration: 1 round or until expended
SR: Yes (harmless)
Save: Will negates (harmless)

Effect: The next time the target of this spell takes hit point damage from a hostile source, that damage is negated, and the target is instead healed for the amount of damage that would have been dealt (after considering modifiers like resistance, damage reduction, and saving throws, if applicable). The spell ends after once such occurrence. A creature may only have one instance of this spell active on it at once. This spell does not prevent or heal damage dealt by the target itself (or any of the target's own items or abilities) or damage dealt by the target's allies. When this spell prevents damage, the target is not considered to have been damaged, so effects that trigger off of the target taking damage do not trigger off of damage that was prevented (though subsequent sources of damage are handled normally).


Anyway, what spell level would you peg that at? Again, assume that no one is trying to abuse the wording of it or do anything that would get it "for free." If you really wanted to put it in Conjuration (Healing) instead of in Abjuration, I suppose you could do that (or make it dual-school like those spells from PHB2), but since this isn't intended to be a Wizard spell and doesn't have an offensive saving throw, it honestly doesn't make a massive difference which school it is. But what level would be fair? I feel like the 1 round duration and the fact that it triggers off of the next single source of damage (so you can't always control whether it's going to block a big hit or a little hit) mean that it wouldn't need to be a very high level spell, but it is potentially a lot of damage negation if you get lucky and happen to block a really big source of damage. It would definitely be powerful against sack-of-meat monsters with one powerful attack rather than with a strong full attack routine, but you only shield one target for one round per casting, so it still isn't going to outright trivialize the encounter. I suppose that you could make the negation and the healing scale with CL, but I feel like that would be really fiddly in play, and I kinda like the idea that the limitation on the spell comes from the short duration and the fact that it only blocks one hit rather than from scaling CL. (The catch about it being CL-independent is that it would possibly be a very good wand spell, though the balancing factor there is the action cost—is it worth spending a standard action to negate one source of damage that may not even occur?) Since it has a discharge clause, even if you find a way to Persist it, it'll still only block one hit (and the first hit of the fight at that, so the healing will likely be wasted unless you're walking around at less than full HP despite having a Persistomancer in the party).

Anyway, I'm interested in your thoughts. Since I don't have an active 3.5 game and I'm not likely to have one soon, this is more theorycrafting than anything else, but I'd still like to know where you think it would be fair to put this spell level.

[Gallowglass]

As is, I'd make it 3rd level. If you change the components from "V" to "V,S,DF" then I'd make it 2nd level.

Why are you trying to make it verbal only? It doesn't benefit from being V only on face, so I don't really understand it. IMO, making a spell with V only increases the calculation of spell worth, but for this spell it doesn't really benefit much for that increase.

With the "only lasts 1 round maximum" qualifier, I really want to make it 2nd or 1st. It consumes the caster's standard action in a combat to probably give an Ally a better than level appropriate heal. That probability can be guessed at by the caster if he's been paying attention to the last couple rounds of combat. But with you making it verbal only.... I gotta put it up a level for that. And I just don't see what it gains you. You can still be AoO.... so really, the benefit here is you can cast it if you are tied up and one of your gang is trying to fight your captors or so you just need silent spell metamagic to play the "can't tell I'm casting" game rather than still and silent.

This spell is rife for gaming the system, as you point out, and if the spell exists, its going to be gamed. "I am way hurt... I'm going to jump off that cliff over there."

[Hunter Noventa]

It's definitely a useful spell, but not necessarily a powerful one, especially because of the short duration, I'd probably peg it at level 3, 2 for bard.

[J-H]

This may belong in the Homebrew forum. My gut response is that this should be a 4th level spell.

Quick power comparison:
5th level Cleric list
Raise Dead - more effect than RoF
Slay Living - more powerful than "prevent one hit"
True Seeing - negates a lot of stuff

So less than 5th level

4th level Cleric list
Death Ward - blocks more stuff than RoF, lasts longer
Freedom of Movement - more powerful than RoF
Spell Immunity - more powerful

So less than 4th level...

3rd level Cleric list
Dispel Magic - just as useful, but doesn't deal with HP and involves opposed checks; less powerful than RoF
Bestow Curse - can negate more actions, but requires the enemy to fail a save; similar power
Protection From Energy - negates multiple attacks, but limited to specific type; they share limited versatility
Wind Wall - Negates multiple attacks, but bypassable; similar power level

Upon review, I say it's a 3rd level spell, but I'd give it a cap of "up to 12 damage blocked per caster level" like Protection From Energy has, and I might give it a duration of 1 round per 4 caster levels.

[Troacctid]

I'd start it at 2nd level, as it bears some similarity to Close Wounds.

My expectation would be for it to be used as a readied action, so it should never actually fizzle without blocking something.

[eggynack]

Maybe first, cause I don't necessarily prefer it to sanctuary.

[Magesmiley]

After considering, I think I would be ok with this as a 2nd-level spell, with one caveat: there should be a limit on the amount of healing (probably based on caster-level).
If the amount of healing is unlimited, this should go up to 3rd.

[Zaq]

As is, I'd make it 3rd level. If you change the components from "V" to "V,S,DF" then I'd make it 2nd level.

Why are you trying to make it verbal only? It doesn't benefit from being V only on face, so I don't really understand it. IMO, making a spell with V only increases the calculation of spell worth, but for this spell it doesn't really benefit much for that increase.

With the "only lasts 1 round maximum" qualifier, I really want to make it 2nd or 1st. It consumes the caster's standard action in a combat to probably give an Ally a better than level appropriate heal. That probability can be guessed at by the caster if he's been paying attention to the last couple rounds of combat. But with you making it verbal only.... I gotta put it up a level for that. And I just don't see what it gains you. You can still be AoO.... so really, the benefit here is you can cast it if you are tied up and one of your gang is trying to fight your captors or so you just need silent spell metamagic to play the "can't tell I'm casting" game rather than still and silent.

This spell is rife for gaming the system, as you point out, and if the spell exists, its going to be gamed. "I am way hurt... I'm going to jump off that cliff over there."

I didn't put a ton of thought into the components. I mostly removed S because I like the idea of sword-and-board Paladins or Clerics casting protective spells without having to worry about Somatic Weaponry. Tack a DF on it if you like, no problem. Even adding S wouldn't be a dealbreaker outright.

[Quertus]

So... I cast this spell, then get my 2-handed power attack leap attack shock trooper samurai to deal all the damage to my formerly wounded teammate? It's an out-of-combat Heal spell (3.0, 2e, ALL TEH HEALZ). Meh. For a caster with spell points, is that really all that likely to heal more than 5 applications of Lesser Vigor? Probably not. 3rd level seems fine for out-of-combat healing.

In combat, it's "hold an action to cast this spell when the scary thing attacks someone". Really abusive to use Silent Spell on it as written, if it has no visual effects. With full V/S/DF components, and a visual effect (bright light shines forth from the caster's hands enveloping the target, whatever), it still seems a bit strong for 3rd. It's like having all the immunity spells and a healing spell memorized together. Even with limits, it's like having all the resist spells and a healing spell memorized together.

The only ranged healing spell I'm familiar with is the 2nd level Close Wounds, which only heals for a max of 1d4+5. Nowhere near the utility you could get out of this spell.

So... probably agree that it should have some hard cap of max damage prevented / healed.

Actually... given that even the 6th level Heal spell has been given a cap on damage healed... that puts this spell as stronger than the 6th level Heal spell if it doesn't have a cap.

[Gallowglass]

Okay. As long as its V,S, DF, As the DM, I'd make it 2nd level. But, if I was being really truthful, it probably belongs as 3rd level.

This is because of two things.

1> It autoscales as you level. It will be more useful at higher levels without needing to be a higher level spell? Why? because it heals the amount of damage being output by the enemy which is lower at lower CR/ECL than at higher CR/ECL. Its a nice, novel concept, but its a definite plus. It also rewards strategic and tactical thinking more than normal spells. I like that too. But by high levels its likely to get you more healing than 5th level spells. That's a tough pill to swallow.

example:

cleric: "I cast Reversal of Fortune on Fighter."

Fighter: "You do... Hmmm... If I step straight back from the guy I'm fighting, can I move over to the square between the other enemy soldier and the enemy thief?"

DM: "Well yes, but you'll take attacks of oppurtunity from both, and they'll be flanking you."

Fighter: "Yeah. the enemy thief is faster though right, so his AoO goes off first?"

DM: "yeah, he's higher in the initiative, his dex is better."

Fighter: "Do it!"

DM: "Okay. The thief hits you for full sneak attack for 53 points of damage, then the enemy soldier hits for you for 23."

Fighter: "Sweet. net 30 hit points for the win."

2> The real strength isn't the healing, its the action denial. In addition to a healing burst to a character, this COSTS the enemy unit two actions. 1> The action that hit, because the damage is nullified and 2> The next attack which will just be chewing through the hitpoints added on by the last action. Most spells below 3rd level that deny actions top out at 1 action, or give you some kind of check or save to let you cancel out the nullification. This is basically a 2 round (2 hit) daze with no save. If I think about it that way, I'm thinking 4th or 5th level. BUT it craters when the enemy has multiple attacks. Then its only a partial action daze rather than a 2 round daze.

So, If I was your DM, I'd make this 2nd level. Its a powerful 2nd level spell, but I'm okay with that because it will encourage use of the spell and reward you for the initiative for making your own spell by making it special and useful. If I made it 3rd level, I think you'd fall out of like with the spell quickly and stop using it.


Quertus>

The OP was very clear in the text of the spell that it won't trigger a heal if you are an ally. So its useless for out of combat healing. In fact he spent quite a lot of text explaining that in his post.

[Quertus]

Quertus>

The OP was very clear in the text of the spell that it won't trigger a heal if you are an ally. So its useless for out of combat healing. In fact he spent quite a lot of text explaining that in his post.


Effect: The next time the target of this spell takes hit point damage from a hostile source, that damage is negated, and the target is instead healed for the amount of damage that would have been dealt (after considering modifiers like resistance, damage reduction, and saving throws, if applicable). The spell ends after once such occurrence. A creature may only have one instance of this spell active on it at once. This spell does not prevent or heal damage dealt by the target itself (or any of the target's own items or abilities) or damage dealt by the target's allies. When this spell prevents damage, the target is not considered to have been damaged, so effects that trigger off of the target taking damage do not trigger off of damage that was prevented (though subsequent sources of damage are handled normally).


Yup. Missed that. Or, rather, forgot that by the time I posted. Thanks for the correction!

Though, honestly, I still feel that the (RAW non-existent) out-of-combat potential for the spell was its least useful application.

[Starkeeper]

Please tell me that this (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reversal_of_Fortune) is the basis of the spell. :smallbiggrin:

Reversal of Fortune
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Cleric 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You can cast this spell any time you or an ally would take damage from a hostile source. The source of the damage must pose a threat to you or your allies in some direct, immediate way. This spell converts the first 1d4 +1 points of damage per caster level (maximum 10d4+10) into healing.

I actually had that on file from a tentative GWxD&D campaign I was trying to set up, which, unfortunately, never made it past the planning stages due to a... lack of player interest. So I can't really vouch on the balance of this spell, it's probably a little strong for a 3rd yet bumping it up as a 4th seems like too much since Delay Death comes online then.

[Gruftzwerg]

This spell converts the first 1d4 +1 points of damage per caster level (maximum 10d4+10) into healing

This is the heal restriction that the spell needs (values may change, but it has to scale with CLVL). Cause if it would only scale from the incoming damage, it would lead to silly situations and abuse.
If there is no limit for the healing, than I would just stab myself everytime I wanna have a full heal!?? I hope you get now why you need to cap the healing values to casterlvl.

[Final Hyena]

This spell does not prevent or heal damage dealt by the target itself (or any of the target's own items or abilities) or damage dealt by the target's allies.

As this is an aspect that I can see becoming a source of disagreement (A spell designed to heal you when hit, unless a friend hits you.....) I wish to ask you, why include this limit?

Honestly if you remove it I hardly see it as broken, if someone want to spend their spell and then a strong attack/spell to heal someone in or out of combat is it broken? Especially if you give it a limit on amount healed as other people have suggested.

[WhiteBread]

Probably would place that at 6th level because it can be abused for many situations where knowledge of impeding death is known. It can also fully heal someone simply by jumping down a pitfall with deadly needles. Uncapped heal is hard to judge. I would limit the negated damage to caster level. After all taking away double the actions of foes is a seriously good spell considering action management. With negated damage limit i would consider this 3-4th level.
Edit: Just imagine this spell being used by a demon lord. You built a mega laser which can be shot once for 1000000 dmg and demon lord just says no 2nd lvl spell. My party would kill me for that ... xD