Basic Hellfire Warlock Optimization

[JNAProductions]

So I want to go Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion or something else that advances Hellfire Warlock blasting X.

How does the Strongheart Vest work, how do I get it, and how do I make myself resistant to Con damage while still being able to Hellfire away?

[Morcleon]

So I want to go Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion or something else that advances Hellfire Warlock blasting X.

How does the Strongheart Vest work, how do I get it, and how do I make myself resistant to Con damage while still being able to Hellfire away?

Strongheart Vest can be obtained via the Shape Soulmeld feat and basically gives you DR 1/- against ability score damage. It does work with Hellfire Warlock because it doesn't make you immune, just lowers the damage you take.

[JNAProductions]

Strongheart Vest can be obtained via the Shape Soulmeld feat and basically gives you DR 1/- against ability score damage. It does work with Hellfire Warlock because it doesn't make you immune, just lowers the damage you take.

More details on that, Morc? And thanks!

[Bobby Baratheon]

I don't know about Strongheart vest (though the general consensus is that it's cheesy, YMMV), but going the Binder Route is perfectly viable. You would lose one level total, which can be made up through bloodlines pretty easily. You would then bind Naberius as your 1st level vestige, and you would get the ability to heal one point of ability damage each round. Hellfire Warlock deals one point of constitution each round, so put two and two together and just make sure your Constitution is an odd number.

[Draconium]

Shaping Strongheart Vest allows you to reduce any ability score damage you would take from a source by point. Since this doesn't make you immune to Con damage, you can take it (use the Shap Soulmeld feat) and constantly keep it shaped (taking up that body slot, as with any other vest) to effectively take 0 damage from using Hellfire Blast. It's fairly simple.

[Morcleon]

More details on that, Morc? And thanks!

The Strongheart Vest soulmeld lowers all ability score damage you take by 1 point. It is obtainable with the feat Shape Soulmeld, which requires Con 13. Hellfire Warlock deals 1 point of Con damage to you each time you use a thing, and cannot be used if you are immune to Con damage. However, since the soulmeld merely reduces damage rather than making you immune, this feat works fine to negate the penalties.

It also fits fluff-wise as well, since you're feeding the devils incarnum soulstuff instead of your own soul.


I don't know about Strongheart vest (though the general consensus is that it's cheesy, YMMV).

Honestly, anything with Hellfire Warlock and Legacy Champion is cheesy. :smalltongue:

[Bobby Baratheon]

Honestly, anything with Hellfire Warlock and Legacy Champion is cheesy. :smalltongue:

Ha. Truer words have never been spoken. Not even by the Truenamer.

If your DM's cool with strongheart vest, then go with it by all means. It's hardly a game breaker. Also, would bloodlines advance Hellfire Warlock?

[JNAProductions]

Ha. Truer words have never been spoken. Not even by the Truenamer.

If your DM's cool with strongheart vest, then go with it by all means. It's hardly a game breaker. Also, would bloodlines advance Hellfire Warlock?

How do Bloodlines work? Like, at all?

[Morcleon]

If your DM's cool with strongheart vest, then go with it by all means. It's hardly a game breaker. Also, would bloodlines advance Hellfire Warlock?

Nope. Bloodline levels only advance numerical things and calculations.

[Bobby Baratheon]

How do Bloodlines work? Like, at all?

They're a abominably confusing and poorly worded variant system that act as ghost levels. Basically, you advance a level without advancing a level. Confused? Good. Bloodlines give you some random benefits depending on the selected type, and advance certain aspects of your character a level without you actually gaining a level. I would just the google the bloodlines handbook, if I were you. It'll be much simpler.

[JNAProductions]

Okay, so both Soulmelds and Vestiges are banned.

How else do I handle Hellfire Con damage?

[Morcleon]

Okay, so both Soulmelds and Vestiges are banned.

How else do I handle Hellfire Con damage?

Wands of Lesser Restoration on a familiar. Probably one or two eternal wands and one regular wand.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Vestiges are banned? May I ask why? You would have to dip Binder to get it to work. It's a very fair option, and if they're allowing Legacy Champion it doesn't really make sense to ban binding.

You could just get a wand of lesser restoration and a familiar to cast it on you every round or so.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[JNAProductions]

Well, we're starting at level one, so this is all hypothetical so far.

And I haven't actually asked about Legacy Champion, but the only things listed as banned are Incarnum and Psionics. (Apparently Vestiges are Incarnum, so they get banned too.)

[Snowbluff]

Nope. Bloodline levels only advance numerical things and calculations.

Hellfire is a calculation, isn't it?

[Draconium]

Well, we're starting at level one, so this is all hypothetical so far.

And I haven't actually asked about Legacy Champion, but the only things listed as banned are Incarnum and Psionics. (Apparently Vestiges are Incarnum, so they get banned too.)

But... Incarnum and Vestiges are from two different books... And have almost nothing in common...

[JNAProductions]

But... Incarnum and Vestiges are from two different books... And have almost nothing in common...

I was wrong! I missed it, he said IF they were from the same book.

Nevermind, Vestiges SHOULD be allowed. (What book are they in, anyway?)

[torrasque666]

iwat.

Even I'm not enough of a **** to ban incarnum. its harmless. i mean its basically a bunch of classes that have the key class feature of nuking their item capabilities​.

[Morcleon]

Hellfire is a calculation, isn't it?

...so it is. It's actually +2d6 per class level, so yes, bloodline works fine. Was thinking it was a hardcoded class feature or something. :smallredface:

[JNAProductions]

Okay, so how do Bloodlines work, then? And would Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion be better?

[Draconium]

I was wrong! I missed it, he said IF they were from the same book.

Nevermind, Vestiges SHOULD be allowed. (What book are they in, anyway?)

Tome of Magic. The same book you'll fine the less-than-optimal Shadowcasting and the generally-considered-brokenly-underpowered Truenaming.

[Snowbluff]

...so it is. It's actually +2d6 per class level, so yes, bloodline works fine. Was thinking it was a hardcoded class feature or something. :smallredface:
It's okay, chou.

Okay, so how do Bloodlines work, then? And would Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion be better?

Bloodlines are trickier, and i don't think they are "basic." Uncanny trickster is the safest and easiest to work out. :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

I really don't like the Binder dip. Losing a level of invocation progression is just so senseless for an effect that you can easily get from cheap magic items. Would you pay 9000 gold to essentially gain a full extra level of Warlock? I think most people would.

I can see it if you're at a high enough level that you already have the good stuff anyway. Warlock 16/Hellfire Warlock 3/Binder 1 is definitely better than Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3, as 20-level builds go. But if you're starting at level 1, and you want to be blasting, then you probably also want to rush to greater invocations ASAP to get Vitriolic Blast and Chilling Tentacles.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Tome of Magic. The same book you'll fine the less-than-optimal Shadowcasting and the generally-considered-brokenly-underpowered Truenaming.

Shadowcasting can get quite powerful if you build it right. The trick is getting abilities up to (Su) levels for immunity to SR.

In fact, there was a Flicker build I did that use Shadow Pounce and ended up with an infinite loop of arbitrary number of attacks. It was fun.

Having said that, you have to be creative and think outside the box to get Shadowcasting to work, otherwise it just fails.

[Snowbluff]

In fact, there was a Flicker build I did that use Shadow Pounce and ended up with an infinite loop of arbitrary number of attacks. It was fun.


Binders get Flicker from Tenebrous.

Warlock1/AnimaMage. ;P

[Bobby Baratheon]

Binders get Flicker from Tenebrous.

Warlock1/AnimaMage. ;P

I know you can qualify for the binding side of Anima Mage without actually taking levels in Binder, but how are you qualifying for the spellcasting side? Doesn't Warlock specifically state that it can benefit from "+1 spellcasting" prestige classes, but that it can't be used as a prereq?

Other than that quibble, Sorcerer 1/Warlock 1/Anima Mage x/Eldritch Theurge x is a surprisingly effective build. If you can eliminate sorcerer, all the better. Though with the sorcerer, it's more powerful but becomes more of a caster with Vestiges/Invocations on the side.

[RoyVG]

A Rod of Bodily Restoration in MIC is 3100 gp and heals up to 12 Con damage per day, divided over 3 charges, standard action. Can also be used forto cure Strength and Dexterity damage, so it's applicable for many situations. Plus it's dirt cheap for what it does. If you can't prevent it, cure it as efficient as possible :smallwink:

[Ger. Bessa]

If my memories don't fail me, warlocks can select the Precocious Apprentice feat at lv1 since they have an arcane caster level. It's also really kuuru.

[Snowbluff]

If my memories don't fail me, warlocks can select the Precocious Apprentice feat at lv1 since they have an arcane caster level. It's also really kuuru.

This guy gets it.

Actually, for not actually contesting strongheart vest, you all get it. Warlock medals for everyone!
http://images2.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/290x218_3622728_12384844_1444853683.jpg

[Ger. Bessa]

Edit : Wrong thread :)

I just posted that Warlock can pick Precocious Apprentice at lv1 and qualify this way into Anima Mage.

[Tiri]

If my memories don't fail me, warlocks can select the Precocious Apprentice feat at lv1 since they have an arcane caster level. It's also really kuuru.

I'm pretty sure their caster level is not arcane, since SLAs are neither arcane nor divine.

[Ger. Bessa]

I'm pretty sure their caster level is not arcane, since SLAs are neither arcane nor divine.

They have an arcane caster level for meeting prerequisites wich allow them to enter Acolyte Of The Skin (requires Arcane Caster Level 5).

Precocious Apprentice requires Arcane Caster Level 1.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I'd never thought of that. . . and here I was considering myself a Warlock fan. For completeness' sake (I intend on using this trick in the future), how do warlocks fill said slot? Is there any sort of extra shenanigans they have to pull off in order to qualify?

[Gildedragon]

hah. True that. You have no spell but are theoretically capable of casting a spell...
Or anything that adds spells known. There are some initiate feats I think that do that.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Would Mother Cyst be of any use? It grants you access to ten spells. . . You wouldn't know the spells, but they'd be on your "spell list".

[SorenKnight]

If PF content is allowed the Evangelist prestige class can also advance Hellfire Blast and Invocation for 9 of its 10 levels. You can use this to get something like +18d6 hellfire damage on top of your normal blast.

[Snowbluff]

If PF content is allowed the Evangelist prestige class can also advance Hellfire Blast and Invocation for 9 of its 10 levels. You can use this to get something like +18d6 hellfire damage on top of your normal blast.

That is true.

What's the "totally OP" way of using Evangelist in PF? I never found a good use for it.

[Tiri]

They have an arcane caster level for meeting prerequisites wich allow them to enter Acolyte Of The Skin (requires Arcane Caster Level 5).

Precocious Apprentice requires Arcane Caster Level 1.

It's a caster level, not an arcane one. Look at Acolyte of the Skin more closely and you will notice the caster level is not arcane. The rules say they can benefit from classes with +1 arcane spellcaster level, but that is specifically called out.

[dantiesilva]

Just remember in an arms race the DM always wins unless the DM knows about it:smallwink:

[JNAProductions]

Just remember in an arms race the DM always wins unless the DM knows about it:smallwink:

I kinda assume most DMs here have a better grasp of 3.5 than I do. And really, all I'm gonna be sticking out is raw damage.

'Sides, I'm not pulling any early entry shenanigans into Hellfire, so it won't even matter (for your game) till much, much later.

[dantiesilva]

I'm teasing you JNA lol, I happened to be looking for something to make one and was like oh hey I don't need to make a thread now, then I saw you and had to say hi

[Troacctid]

It's a caster level, not an arcane one. Look at Acolyte of the Skin more closely and you will notice the caster level is not arcane. The rules say they can benefit from classes with +1 arcane spellcaster level, but that is specifically called out.

Warlocks are definitely arcane. There are quite a lot of references (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19928941&postcount=1206) that refer to them as such.

[RedSand]

Regarding Precocious Apprentice, I would argue that Warlocks don't have a spellcasting ability. The save DC for their invocations is Charisma-based, yes, but unlike a Wizard's Int or Sorcerer's Cha they don't need a positive charisma modifier to invoke. A warlock with a 3 charisma can cast as many invocations as a warlock with 20.

[Tiri]

Warlocks are definitely arcane. There are quite a lot of references (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19928941&postcount=1206) that refer to them as such.

Yes, but they use SLAs, which are neither arcane nor divine, and the only CL they have is for their SLAs. Sorcerers and wizards use arcane spells, which are, as the name indicates, arcane.

[tsj]

As a warlock fan I find this thread very interesting :)

If going hell fire warlock and advancing hell fire blast to 18d6 using other PRC's... what would the damage of the regular eldritch blast be at level 20?

What would the complete build look like?
What tier would the build be? 3? 4?

[dantiesilva]

To help others something of importance the warlock class in question he is using is this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226021-The-Warlock-a-massive-rewrite-3-5-Base-Class-WIP) for my game. The heritage he choose however is up to him.

[Troacctid]

Yes, but they use SLAs, which are neither arcane nor divine, and the only CL they have is for their SLAs. Sorcerers and wizards use arcane spells, which are, as the name indicates, arcane.

They're arcane casters. How else would you define an "arcane caster level", other than your caster level in an arcane class?

[dantiesilva]

They're arcane casters. How else would you define an "arcane caster level", other than your caster level in an arcane class?

Okay as the DM I am going to make a ruling for this character, if you want to continue debating that is fine however please do so elsewhere, I rather this stay civil and helpful to my player please.

In this matter it will be considered an arcane caster.

[Tiri]

They're arcane casters. How else would you define an "arcane caster level", other than your caster level in an arcane class?

In an arcane spellcasting class, yes. The warlock does not cast spells, arcane or otherwise. Complete Arcane only gives one caster level for th warlock, and that is for his invocations. Invocations are SLAs, and SLAs are not arcane.

[Grim Reader]

I believe SLAs default to Arcane, in the absence of other factors such as duplicating a divine spell etc?

[Tiri]

I believe SLAs default to Arcane, in the absence of other factors such as duplicating a divine spell etc?

SLAs duplicate spell effects, but they are not arcane or divine no matter what spell they imitate. How it works is that it imitates a Sorcerer/Wizard spell first if the SLA is based on a specific spell, then, if it is not on that spell list, it defaults to Cleric, Druid, Bard, Paladin and Ranger in that order.

[Warrnan]

The invocations a warlock uses are arcane in nature. The weapons and armor section of the warlock class says they "suffer arcane spell failure if they wear medium or heavy armor."

[SorenKnight]

That is true.

What's the "totally OP" way of using Evangelist in PF? I never found a good use for it.

The devil is in the details. Or rather the Deific Obedience feat, depending on what good you worship you can get some pretty nice stuff. For example if you enter Evangelist from a venerable aged sorcerer you can use Evangelist to acquire the ghost template and use your presumably amazing Charisma for HP, AC and casting, which is pretty good. Some of the other deities can give you some handy SLAs as well, but that last bit is the best bit that I could figure out, and you have to worship Mestama, Demon Lady of Hags. Evangelist lets you do this at level 11. And that's just what I cam up with off the top of my head, other beings you could worship give a wide array of useful SLAs, templates and stat boosts.

Even without the really cool stuff though what your gaining is better than what your trading away. For example a wizard could come in and, at the cost of a single caster level, gain 3/4 Bab, 6+Int skill points and d8 hit dice on top of Evangelist's actual class features.


As a warlock fan I find this thread very interesting :)

If going hell fire warlock and advancing hell fire blast to 18d6 using other PRC's... what would the damage of the regular eldritch blast be at level 20?

What would the complete build look like?
What tier would the build be? 3? 4?

20th level Eldritch Blast only does 9d6 damage IIRC, that's why you need hellfire. If you go Warlock 8/Hellfire Warlock 3/Evangelist 7 you can Invoke as a 19th level Warlock, deal 8d6 base Eldritch Blast damage and stack 20d6 hellfire on top of that for a total of 28d6 damage. You'll also need a way to prevent the Con damage, which, assuming PF is allowed, you can do with a Ring of Inner Fortitude.

[Mato]

How does the Strongheart Vest work, how do I get it, and how do I make myself resistant to Con damage while still being able to Hellfire away?The strongheart vest only protects against attacks, the con loss from using hellfire isn't an attack.

The strongheart vest protects you from attacks that would reduce your ability scores.
This has come up so often that even the official rules has published an official answer on the matter.

Would the strongheart vest soulmeld (MoI 89) protect you from the ability damage of the hellfire warlock’s hellfire blast ability (FCII 90)?
The strongheart vest soulmeld reduces the amount of ability damage you receive from an attack; however, it does not keep you safe from the costs of hellfire blast because the ability damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.


Okay, so how do Bloodlines work, then? And would Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion be better?No one really knows and you can take both. Warlock/binder/hellfire/trickster(hellfire)/champion(trickster(hellfire)), if your DM allows bloodlines to stack you'll apply the +3 benefit to hellfire, trickster, and the champion class for a total virtual gain of +9.


If my memories don't fail me, warlocks can select the Precocious Apprentice feat at lv1 since they have an arcane caster level. It's also really kuuru.Warlock invocations do not say they are arcane, they say they are subject to the rules of arcane spell failure. Page 18 says a warlock can benefit from +1 arcane spellcasting but it doesn't say or imply they can enter arcane-only classes. For example, acolyte of the skin wants a spell or spell-like ability caster level 5th and page 71 says a warlock can meet "caster level 5th", the text never once says anything about a warlock being able to qualify for "arcane caster level 5th".

Precocious precedence also says "choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to.", a warlock doesn't have access to any spells, only spell-like abilities, to begin with. If you want to read that is just needed access to the school you'll just have to accept that I disagree. Anime mage also gets in the way of progressing the superior hellfire class anyway.


If going hell fire warlock and advancing hell fire blast to 18d6 using other PRC's... what would the damage of the regular eldritch blast be at level 20?It depends.

A greater chasuble of fell power improves your eldritch blast by +2d6. The gloves of eldritch admixture and warlock’s scepter also give you a number of charges per day that can temporarily increase your eldritch blast damage and mortal bane is almost a go to as well.

These things become very potent effects when you use a shape that causes your eldritch blast to last longer than a single attack, such as eldritch glaive. You still only use the sla once, but you get to hit multiple times. And it works with empower/maximize spell-like ability too. Warlocks can hit some truly tremendous numbers in this manner. Like 10d6 class +12d6 items/feats, +18d6 hellfire, maximized and channeled through a divine power & glaive deals 960 damage and you can still quicken a second one and apply empower if you like.

[Troacctid]

Warlock invocations do not say they are arcane, they say they are subject to the rules of arcane spell failure. Page 18 says a warlock can benefit from +1 arcane spellcasting but it doesn't say or imply they can enter arcane-only classes. For example, acolyte of the skin wants a spell or spell-like ability caster level 5th and page 71 says a warlock can meet "caster level 5th", the text never once says anything about a warlock being able to qualify for "arcane caster level 5th".

Your memory betrays you. Warlock is listed as a standard entry class for both Blood Magus and Green Star Adept.

Warlocks are also called out as arcanists in a bunch of other places.

[Aegis013]

...(taking up that body slot, as with any other vest) to effectively take 0 damage from using Hellfire Blast. It's fairly simple.

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure soulmelds only occupy an item slot if they're bound to the relevant chakra. Otherwise, they don't occupy a slot at all, thus Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest wouldn't cause you to be unable to wear a Vest of Resistance or similar even while it's shaped.

[Tiri]

Your memory betrays you. Warlock is listed as a standard entry class for both Blood Magus and Green Star Adept.

Warlocks are also called out as arcanists in a bunch of other places.

That doesn't mean they have an arcane caster level. WotC just made a mistake, like they often do. Giving a class SLAs and calling it arcane does not make the SLAs (and the caster level for them) arcane.

[Troacctid]

That doesn't mean they have an arcane caster level. WotC just made a mistake, like they often do. Giving a class SLAs and calling it arcane does not make the SLAs (and the caster level for them) arcane.
Sure it does. If the rules say they're arcane, then they're arcane. That's how rules work.

Specific beats general. If the specific rules for invocations could be trumped by the general rules for SLAs, then Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts wouldn't need to worry about somatic components and arcane spell failure.

[Tiri]

Sure it does. If the rules say they're arcane, then they're arcane. That's how rules work.

Specific beats general. If the specific rules for invocations could be trumped by the general rules for SLAs, then Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts wouldn't need to worry about somatic components and arcane spell failure.

The rules say warlocks are arcane. However, what makes a character 'arcane' is not well defined. It is never stated that their caster level or their invocations are arcane. At least, not in terms of game mechanics. They may be considered arcane in the game world.

[SorenKnight]

If you can't do Strongheart Vest due to the attack qualification, a Ring of Inner Fortitude will work on any ability damage if PF is allowed. If it isn't, dip Binder and bind Naberius, he will let you regenerate ability damage at a rate of 1 point a round, just enough to counteract your hellfire blast, provided you only use it once a round.

[Troacctid]

The rules say warlocks are arcane. However, what makes a character 'arcane' is not well defined. It is never stated that their caster level or their invocations are arcane. At least, not in terms of game mechanics. They may be considered arcane in the game world.

It is stated that their invocations are arcane.

It is never stated that their caster level is arcane, but if that's your standard, Sorcerers and Wizards don't have arcane caster levels either, because it's also never stated that THEIR caster levels are arcane.

[Tiri]

It is stated that their invocations are arcane.

It is never stated that their caster level is arcane, but if that's your standard, Sorcerers and Wizards don't have arcane caster levels either, because it's also never stated that THEIR caster levels are arcane.

I can't find anyhing saying their invocations are arcane. Could you point me to some evidence?

Sorcerers and wizards have an arcane caster level because the spells that they cast are arcane. Warlocks don't cast spells, they use abilities that mimic spells, and none of those abilities are arcane, although the class is considered arcane, whatever that means.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: It would seem the DM has made a ruling and asked players to cease discussion (or take it elsewhere). Please do that.