Undead -> Outsider?

[guildathegray]

Okay, so, my group has allowed the use of a 3rd party book that I wish to make use of, and what I'm looking at is really sweet for a higher level outsider, but I'm currently working towards demi-lich status. Is there any way to swing both at the same time? I've looked at savage species and I don't think that the type pyramid allows it, I was just curious of loopholes, as my DM as told us to build to our best.

[Gildedragon]

Okay, so, my group has allowed the use of a 3rd party book that I wish to make use of, and what I'm looking at is really sweet for a higher level outsider, but I'm currently working towards demi-lich status. Is there any way to swing both at the same time? I've looked at savage species and I don't think that the type pyramid allows it, I was just curious of loopholes, as my DM as told us to build to our best.

Lich needs the Humanoid type; which is a problem and there doesn't seem to be a lich for outsiders

[hamishspence]

Libris Mortis: page 156-158 "Lichfiend" - as lich, but has DR 15/good and bludgeoning.

[Inevitability]

Libris Mortis: page 156-158 "Lichfiend" - as lich, but has DR 15/good and bludgeoning.

Note that it requires you to have a number of SLA's. Simply being an outsider won't be enough.

[Necroticplague]

Okay, so, my group has allowed the use of a 3rd party book that I wish to make use of, and what I'm looking at is really sweet for a higher level outsider, but I'm currently working towards demi-lich status. Is there any way to swing both at the same time? I've looked at savage species and I don't think that the type pyramid allows it, I was just curious of loopholes, as my DM as told us to build to our best.

Type pyramind is descriptive, not prescriptive. It describes how hard it typically is to go in one direction, not providing any rules saying you can or can't go in either direction. I'd like to note the very same book introduces Incarnate Construct, something that turns a Construct into a Giant or Humanoid.

Anyway, a Lich of the proper race could take the Otherworldly feat to be a Native Outsider.

[Inevitability]

Also, a lich binder (anima mage perhaps?) binding Zceryll would gain the pseudonatural template, which would turn his type into outsider. The interesting part is that you can decide what type to be every day, and if necessary you can switch back to undead with Expel vestige or one of those vestige-supressing items from ToM.

[guildathegray]

Also, a lich binder (anima mage perhaps?) binding Zceryll would gain the pseudonatural template, which would turn his type into outsider. The interesting part is that you can decide what type to be every day, and if necessary you can switch back to undead with Expel vestige or one of those vestige-supressing items from ToM.

This is closer to what I want. Tbh What I'll probably end up doing is swinging the RAW as "Undead and Outsiders are at the same teir on the TP" and my dm will throw a fit but let me run my crazy demi-lich that will eventually ascend once the game goes epic.

[Necroticplague]

This is closer to what I want. Tbh What I'll probably end up doing is swinging the RAW as "Undead and Outsiders are at the same teir on the TP" and my dm will throw a fit but let me run my crazy demi-lich that will eventually ascend once the game goes epic.

They Type pyramid isn't hard and fast rules in the first place. It's not saying "your not allowed to go down the pyramid" it's saying "it's easier to go up the pyramid then down it". Which is indeed true, if you look at what templates exist. Going from something to a Humanoid or Animal is incredibly difficult (though not impossible).

If the type pyramid was hard and fast rules, explain the Incarnate Construct template from the same book.

[deathbymanga]

a lich removes his soul from his body, an outsider's soul IS his body, ergo, no lich Outsiders

[Pale Sun]

According to this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060725a) you would be an Undead (Augmented Outsider) even if you become an outsider after having become undead (note that while it says it should be considered an unofficial suggestion, I dont think WotC directly addressed the topic anywhere else).

[Inevitability]

a lich removes his soul from his body, an outsider's soul IS his body, ergo, no lich Outsiders

Actually, a lich's soul is still in his body most of the time. Only when the body is destroyed does it temporarily inhabit his phylactery.

[WhamBamSam]

They Type pyramid isn't hard and fast rules in the first place. It's not saying "your not allowed to go down the pyramid" it's saying "it's easier to go up the pyramid then down it". Which is indeed true, if you look at what templates exist. Going from something to a Humanoid or Animal is incredibly difficult (though not impossible).

If the type pyramid was hard and fast rules, explain the Incarnate Construct template from the same book.My understanding, based on what seemed to be the conclusion of a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?346947-Savage-Species-Type-Pyramid) I posted asking about it a while back, is that the type pyramid is probably defunct in 3.5 anyway.

Anyway, I'll agree that binding Zceryll is probably the way to go. I used that very trick for an Iron Chef build a while back when I wanted Con - as an undead but also outsider Alter Self forms. Another thing that will work is if you ret-con yourself to be a Half-Fiend, using this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) template class, but don't take the first level until after becoming undead.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There are lots of ways to change, mix, and match types, from shape-altering magic (metamorphosis, polymorph, shapechange) to type-altering magic (aberrate, aspect of the wolf, incarnate construct) to items (psychoactive skin of proteus, ring of the white wyrm) to feats (Dragonwrought, Human-Blooded, Human Heritage, Otherworldly) to templates (take your pick). There are even ways to count as multiple types at once (cast aberrate on yourself, fusion with an illithid, and dismiss aberrate; or take Dragonwrought and Human-Blooded at the same time).

Do with that what you will.

[DrMotives]

I have to second (third? Fourth?) everyone who said the type pyramid is a suggestion, not a solid rule. Officially, there is such a thing as an outsider lich already. Acerak was a half-fiend (human & Pit Fiend parentage) with both the lich & demilich templates added before becoming a vestige. And half-fiend as well as their more diluted forms like planetouched are a perfect example of outsider whose bodies are not their souls.

[ganondorf50]

a lich removes his soul from his body, an outsider's soul IS his body, ergo, no lich Outsiders

Unless the lich is from another plane if he was born say on the negative energy plane that would technically make him a outsider or he could be from sigil. If you are borne outside of the prime maaterial plane, or borne anywhere for that matter. Lets say a primer was in hell. They can be banished back to the prime material and visa versa.

[Inevitability]

Unless the lich is from another plane if he was born say on the negative energy plane that would technically make him a outsider or he could be from sigil. If you are borne outside of the prime maaterial plane, or borne anywhere for that matter. Lets say a primer was in hell. They can be banished back to the prime material and visa versa.

There's a difference between being extraplanar and being an outsider. There are both non-extraplanar outsiders (aasimar) and extraplanar non-outsiders (celestial badgers). Being born on another plane doesn't make you automatically an outsider, nor does going there from your home plane.

[ganondorf50]

There's a difference between being extraplanar and being an outsider. There are both non-extraplanar outsiders (aasimar) and extraplanar non-outsiders (celestial badgers). Being born on another plane doesn't make you automatically an outsider, nor does going there from your home plane.

Wait so are we talking about the template then?

[Inevitability]

Wait so are we talking about the template then?

Do you mean the lich template?

[Necroticplague]

a lich removes his soul from his body, an outsider's soul IS his body, ergo, no lich Outsiders

Counterpoint: Native Outsiders have souls and bodies as seperate units.

[deathbymanga]

Counterpoint: Native Outsiders have souls and bodies as seperate units.

a Native Outsider is not the same as an Outsider. a Demon is an Outsider. it's soul is it's body. a Tiefling is a Native Outsider, it has a body and a soul separately.

So, yes, you could be a Native Outsider Lich, but you can't be an Outsider Lich

[DrMotives]

a Native Outsider is not the same as an Outsider. a Demon is an Outsider. it's soul is it's body. a Tiefling is a Native Outsider, it has a body and a soul separately.

So, yes, you could be a Native Outsider Lich, but you can't be an Outsider Lich

I agree with you by fluff with your specific examples, but by mechanics that's dead wrong. A native outsider is an outsider who lacks the "extraplanar" tag. It's not set up in RAW as a completely different thing.

[deathbymanga]

I agree with you by fluff with your specific examples, but by mechanics that's dead wrong. A native outsider is an outsider who lacks the "extraplanar" tag. It's not set up in RAW as a completely different thing.

this has nothing to do with fluff vs mechanics. it specifically says in the rules that Outsiders like Hellhounds, Celestials, Modrons, etc. dissolve into nothing when they die because their souls are their bodies. an Outsider cannot be resurrected or raised as an undead. while under Native Outsider, it says that they CAN be raised from the dead and resurrected because their soul is a separate thing from their body

[SorenKnight]

Native Outsiders are Outsiders with the Native subtype. Their ability to be resurrected isn't proof that they're something entirely different, its an example of a specific rule overriding a general rule. That is, an exception.

For reference see the Native (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype) subtype and the Outsider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) type on the SRD. Native Outsiders have the outsider type, with everything that implies, except for the differences outlined in the Native subtype entry. Anything that effects outsiders effects native outsiders the same way unless it relates to the differences outlined in the subtype or explicitly states otherwise.

[darksolitaire]

MM and D20SRD mention that lich's life force is stored in the phylactery, and doesn't use the word soul. Existence of the lichfiend template also heavily implies that outsiders can become liches, since it can only be applied to outsiders (Succubus is one specified example).

[Necroticplague]

a Native Outsider is not the same as an Outsider. a Demon is an Outsider. it's soul is it's body. a Tiefling is a Native Outsider, it has a body and a soul separately.

So, yes, you could be a Native Outsider Lich, but you can't be an Outsider Lich
....
This is horribly wrong on several levels.
1. Yes, they are not the same. But one is a subset of the other. Native Outsiders are a type of Outsider. Not all outsiders are native outsiders, but all native outsiders are outsiders. Tieflings are Outsiders, as well as Native Outsiders.
2.No, you can't be a native outsider lich. the Lich template can only be applied to Humanoids. Native Outsiders are not Humanoids, so they don't qualify. There is, however, the Lichfiend lich variant (libris mortis, p. 156-157), which can be applied to evil outsiders.

Side note: if your logic was sound, then warforged aren't constructs, because they're alive and have a CON score, something constructs don't have. Fortunately, your logic is as solid as a sodden cracker.

[Tiri]

this has nothing to do with fluff vs mechanics. it specifically says in the rules that Outsiders like Hellhounds, Celestials, Modrons, etc. dissolve into nothing when they die because their souls are their bodies. an Outsider cannot be resurrected or raised as an undead. while under Native Outsider, it says that they CAN be raised from the dead and resurrected because their soul is a separate thing from their body

There's nothing in the rules saying Outsiders can't become undead.