Closed #2

[magicalmagicman]

Edit:Eldariel fixed my other Sorcerer build! So closing this one down XD. Everyone give a hand to Eldariel!

[Malroth]

You don't qualify for exotic weapon proficiency till lv 2 at which point you have a lot more important things to do with your feats I'd just use your simple weapon proficiency with a longspear

[magicalmagicman]

You don't qualify for exotic weapon proficiency till lv 2 at which point you have a lot more important things to do with your feats I'd just use your simple weapon proficiency with a longspear

There's always some dumb requirement like that that kills all the happiness in me. Thanks for pointing that out. I will make adjustments...

I don't think when I'm alone having a weapon that can't hit adjacent targets is a good idea.

[paddyfool]

Long spear / gauntlet combo? As fragile as a sorcerer is, I'd be tempted to look into ranged weapons myself, but that means quite a different build.

[Gildedragon]

There's always some dumb requirement like that that kills all the happiness in me. Thanks for pointing that out. I will make adjustments...

I don't think when I'm alone having a weapon that can't hit adjacent targets is a good idea.

dagger with a least crystal of returning

[HammeredWharf]

I really don't see how this build would be centered around Spiked Chain. It's usually used for tripping, but that won't work with 12 str and no feats.

If you want to melee, you could be an elf, take the Otherworldly regional feat to become an outsider, then use Alter Self to turn into a Dwarf Ancestor to get +18 AC. Since it's natural AC, you can use Scintillating Scales later on to turn it into touch AC. It's a bit cheesy, though. I think turning into an outsider would also give you proficiency with martial weapons. The downside is that until lvl 5 you'd have to make do with another form, such as Formian Worker and its +4 AC. 3HD Minor Xorn has +12 AC and a 2HD Azer has +6.

[magicalmagicman]

I really don't see how this build would be centered around Spiked Chain. It's usually used for tripping, but that won't work with 12 str and no feats.

If you want to melee, you could be an elf, take the Otherworldly regional feat to become an outsider, then use Alter Self to turn into a Dwarf Ancestor to get +18 AC. Since it's natural AC, you can use Scintillating Scales later on to turn it into touch AC. It's a bit cheesy, though. I think turning into an outsider would also give you proficiency with martial weapons. The downside is that until lvl 5 you'd have to make do with another form, such as Formian Worker and its +4 AC. 3HD Minor Xorn has +12 AC and a 2HD Azer has +6.

Regional feats aren't allowed.

Your comments reminded me I don't get access to Crucians until level 3, and troglodytes until level 2. Arghhhhh

This build isn't centered around Spiked Chain. I need a melee weapon that I'll be magically enhancing, so might as well be a weapon that has reach and can attack adjacent creatures. Spiked Chain is superior to longspear in every way possible.

Craft Construct at level 9 does sound appealing for Hydra Effigies, but can I survive levels 1-8 with only a longspear? I highly doubt it, which is why I think i should stick to spiked chain. I mean from level 6 I think I can get away with a pure reach weapon thanks to fly, but I'm not sure about before, but then I'm really only using spiked chain for levels 3-5... hmm...

[Eldariel]

I don't think when I'm alone having a weapon that can't hit adjacent targets is a good idea.

Sadly your personal to hit without buffs will just be so bad that you are going to be reliably hitting absolutely nothing (you're +3 behind a 16 Str human warrior, +7 behind a raging Orc Barbarian with base 18 Str). 25pb will seriously hurt any gishing attempts: a Goblin is a favorite against you without your spells on level 1! Honestly, I'd consider other approaches if I were you. Trying to survive especially the first few levels with the build you suggested would be very difficult.

There are certainly ways around the proficiency issue. Heroics can be used for the proficiency later. There's also Master's Touch for anything from level 1 (swift action to boot). You can also carry a weapon combo (reach weapon + armor spikes/unarmed strikes), use a spell that gives you natural weapons (Fist of Stone is a 1st level spell), have natural natural weapons, etc. From level 8 onwards you could always just use Incantatrix to persistify your spells (enter on level 6, on Incantatrix 3/Character Level 8 you get the ability to persist buffs which should have you covered for life). It's certainly Forgotten Realms stuff that's quite easy to enter with your own baseline.

Frankly, the fact that you're stuck as a Sorcerer will make your life awfully difficult. A Wizard could comparatively easily just pick up Abrupt Jaunt for early survivability (PHBII should be allowed?), max Int for skills + spells and level 2 spells on character level 3 (which makes your life so, so much easier) and go from there. I'd make absolutely sure to at least pick up Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) to carry you through the very first levels - WotC web material is at least easily accessible and right there so perhaps you can get it approved (if not, you can always put ranks in Handle Animal and purchase guard dogs or whatever - you can do that additionally anyways). The usual war-trained Riding Dog is more than sufficient to give you a fighting chance once you get it studded leather barding.


If I were you, I'd do the following:
Sun/Fire/Gray Elf [Focused] or Lesser Tiefling Conjurer (ban evo/enc + nec if going focused specialist)

Abrupt Jaunt

1. Wild Cohort
F. X (e.g. Eschew Materials)
F. Y (e.g. Collegiate Wizard)

16 Dex/12 Con/19 Int/dump rest (it's real unfortunate that you can't get 20 Int for the additional spell per day but that's life under 25pb - could drop Int further and buff Cha/Wis/Str but save DCs on spells help and you'd be hurting for skill points). (Strongheart) Halfling or Whisper Gnome could work too, for better stealth and such. Movement limitations do suck though, but Whisper Gnome bypasses those.


I'd get a Longbow ASAP (Light Crossbow until then, but the move action is kinda important; 5' steps serve in a pinch), get control spells, max stealth skills, max Tumble, go from there (hence why Dex so important). Ranged weapons are quite good early on. On low levels, you can move and attack each turn at no loss of attacks/actions, which allows kiting against slower opponents and exchanging actions vs. equally fast or faster ones. It also goes great with Abrupt Jaunt.

Solo play lends itself great to stealth, ambushes and such: fewer characters = fewer rolls needed and more chances to be tactical. You can also carry thrown alchemical weapons; Alchemist's Fires hold up nicely on low levels, essentially dealing 2d6 each.


If you want to try and make the Sorc work anyways, I bid you good luck though. I cannot imagine you being a favorite to survive but again, combine two weapons and see how it goes. If you can get some animals to help you out, perhaps you can pull it off somehow.

[HammeredWharf]

Sorry, I misread the part about regional feats.

I'll second everything Eldariel wrote. Staying alive is hard for low-level wizards. For low-level sorcerers who want to be good at melee and skills? It's much harder. Wild Cohort would help, but it's not something I'd expect a stingy DM to allow.

If you just want a melee-friendly caster with summons an not a sorc specifically, a druid would be ideal for this situation. Getting Planar Binding on a druid is trickier, but I imagine someone somewhere found a way. Then again, when it comes to melee minions, druids have plenty of good options without it.


This build isn't centered around Spiked Chain.

Then you should probably remove that part from the OP not to confuse people.

[paddyfool]

IMHO, a low level sorc who find themselves alone may well be best off finding ways to avoid / defuse / escape dangerous encounters rather than trying to hit things in the face.

To expand on what others have said, if you want a magic user who hits things in the face with some chance of low level survival, you're far better off with a druid, a cleric, a duskblade, a refluffed psychic warrior, a bard, a very refluffed swordsage or probably quite a few other options that I'm not thinking of than you are with a sorcerer for quite a few levels.

[Ger. Bessa]

I'm coming back with my suggestions, since you gave up on the Fiery Burst idea.

As a solo sorcerer, your main weakness (lack of spell known) is incresed since you have to do everything by yourself. You must therefore find ways to patch what you lack.

You don't want to use wands for fights, I guess ? That's why you first tried to get a SLA and now you think of gishing.

Idea 1 : Stalwart Sorcerer ACF (SRD?) : You lose 1 spell known of you highest level for gishing opportunity (2 feats, martial proficiency and weapon focus for the martial weapon of you choice). The cost is offset if you can have a customizable runestaff. Only pick the acf if you need the proficiency and can get the Runestaff.

Idea 2 : Ancestral Relic feat (BoED) (be good and get that customizable Runestaff). Very cost effective, and patches your lack of spell known. With it, you can lesser planar bind at lv8. Pick the feat at lv3.

Idea 3 : Elvencraft longbow (It's a longbow and a staff). Just good stuff. You are proficient with it if you're an elf (racial longbow proficiency) or go the stalwart route. Basically a better form for a runestaff.

Idea 4 : Domain sorcerer ACF (Complete Champion): at lv 6, get one domain (like 'Magic'). It costs you spells known but you know... runestaff. Be creative for a new way to cast divine spells and you can enter Dweomerkeer at lv7 as a pure sorcerer. Supernatural spell at lv10.

Don't throw away feats, they are rare and precious. Reserve those you need for your prestige class entry asap and the remaining ones should have high significance.

Finally, Familiar (or Animal Companion ACF) can help you far more than your ACF, as you will burn even more spells if you are alone.

[magicalmagicman]

Yeah, non sorcerer would solve all my problems. I know that. Wizards can grab fiery burst at 3, domain wizards have useful spell every level, conjurer specialist can dodge attacks by teleporting, every wizard of any kind can get lesser planar binding at level 9, the list goes on. But I really want to play a sorcerer! :(

In my other thread a gentleman suggested a superior cleric build to my sorcerer in every form, but I don't want to play a cleric due to fluff. I want to play a sorcerer!

I hate animals too! That's why I want to ditch my familiar and never play druid.

As I mentioned before, forgotten realms stuff is not allowed. Incantatrix is the main reason my DM bans all FR material.

OK! So my original concept was that grease and glitterdust would boost my hit enough to land hits. Grease is essentially a +4 to hit in addition to provoking attacks of opportunity, and there's Wraithstrike too. And my plan for early game survival was abusing my early access to alter self.

Is hitting stuff with melee really that hard? Browsing a bunch of monsters, most of their AC range is in 15-20 for monsters with less than CR 10

With enlarge person a successful hit with spiked chains is ((1+6)*2)/2+3 = 10dmg. At level 7 I have haste and wraithstrike I'd land almost all of my hits while dealing 20damage a turn. If I have something like shocking weapon then damage would increase to 27 a turn, 34 if I also grab a wand of burning or sonic weapon. Then there's also true strike. I can swap out grease for it.

Also there is Spectral Weapon which basically halves my damage in exchange for all of my attacks to be touch AC.

OK So if gishing is not an option, what is? Full blaster? Fiery Burst at 6? I just heard from my DM that when I do solo fights, it will against lower CR monsters and in fewer number, but that doesn't change the fact that I need to contribute to my party's damage output. Is going full Nova (spend all spells in one fight) a more viable option than gishing?

@Ger. Bessa
I've talked to my DM about ancestral relic. He doesn't like BoED, but he said he will allow as a last resort, and is encouraging me to find other builds.

[Gildedragon]

Sorcerer soloing: minionmancy (mind control, cheap summons), or diplomancy (can also use mind control), or blasting... Or sneaking around the obstacle

I am very partial to the second and third options illusion and enchantment are potentially very powerful schools, and more importantly very versatile, especially when backed by conjurations for either blasting through an obstacle OR adding backup

What are your thoughts on psionics?

How legal is dragon compendium: yes the stuff started out in the mag BUT it did get reprinted into an official book

Eberron stuff?

[Eldariel]

Have you considered putting that Charisma to good use and getting a hireling? A Human with Able Learner or e.g. appropriate Draconic Heritage could get a reasonable amount of social skills, you have some Charisma as a Sorcerer anyways and hiring two Warriors to accompany you would help you a lot and would be potentially sustainable.


The only other recourse I can really think of is to learn to nuke, and pump your level 1 caster level. Sadly, this comes at a great future cost in terms of build efficiency. Let's see, Kelgore's Firebolt can get 5d6 and that just requires pumping your casterlevel. There are some feats that do it, though I think you might be able to use Fiery Burst too like you originally planned to. There are many variations of how to make it work.

The simplest I can think of is Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell: Versatile Spellcaster allows sacrificing two 1st level spells to cast a 2nd level spell and Heighten Spell means you have a 2nd level spell to cast off it (even if it's no better than your 1st level spells, Heightened X is no doubt a 2nd level spell by explicit reading of the feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell)). The only possible counterargument I can find would be attacking Versatile Spellcaster's ability to cast a metamagicked spell but such a claim doesn't seem supported by any rules. This'd give you the 2d6 bomb which, while not amazing and ties one of your spells known and three feats (admittedly both Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell can be useful for a Sorcerer anyways), can at least do the dirty deed.

[Malroth]

Sorcorers win fights by rendering the enemy unable to counterattack not by spending 4 feats to save 1 gold piece on a spell component pouch and pretend to be a warrior with a spiked chain.

I'd go with

Gnome forest or fire variant prefered
Animal companion Variant sorcorer

Str 7-2
Dex 12
Con 14+2
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 16

1 Wild Cohort (this +animal companion completely replaces your need for melee)
1 Extend Spell
1 Skill Knowledge (handle animal)
3 Arcane disciple (animal)
6 Spell Focus Conjuration
9 Greenbound Summoning
12 Cloudy Conjuration
15 Quicken spell

Grab 2 riding dogs with your animal companion and wild cohort features, Buff them and yourself with mage armor disable enemies with grease or color spray and sick the dogs on them, Use charm to hire defeated melee guys. Buy a +2 wisdom item before lv 9 and learn Summon Natures Ally 4 so you qualify for Greenbound summoning

Edit: forgot you wanted an item creation feat before 8 for dewomer keeper, you can trade extend spell out for an item creation feat if you grab the planning domain during your cleric dip

Edit2: Apparently greenbound summoning only applys to your SNA spells not your summon monster spells definately not worth 2 feats then

new reccomendation

1 Spell Focus Conjuration
1 Skill Knowledge (handle animal)
1 Wild Cohort
3 Craft Wonderous Item
6 Cloudy Conjuration
9 Augment summoning
12 Summon Elemental

Grab planning domain in your cleric dip for free extend spell

[magicalmagicman]

The simplest I can think of is Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell: Versatile Spellcaster allows sacrificing two 1st level spells to cast a 2nd level spell and Heighten Spell means you have a 2nd level spell to cast off it (even if it's no better than your 1st level spells, Heightened X is no doubt a 2nd level spell by explicit reading of the feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell)). The only possible counterargument I can find would be attacking Versatile Spellcaster's ability to cast a metamagicked spell but such a claim doesn't seem supported by any rules. This'd give you the 2d6 bomb which, while not amazing and ties one of your spells known and three feats (admittedly both Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell can be useful for a Sorcerer anyways), can at least do the dirty deed.

Where were you yesterday while Troacctid was beating my build with a club?

We gotta be absolutely positively totally completely undoubtedly airtight about the early access fiery burst.

Versatile Spellcaster


You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Lesser Burning Orb is a spell he knows
There is no mention of anything including or excluding metamagic
Heightened lesser burning orb is a spell he knows, but is heightened lesser burning orb a spell? Because you can make a scroll of heightened lesser burning orb, I am going to say yes!
So technically, this feat gives a level 1 sorcerer the ability to cast 2nd level spells.


Fiery Burst


Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells,

As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast

We've established that Versatile Spellcaster gives me the ability to cast 2nd level spells. This is actually enough of a win for me.
But the problem here is the words available to cast. Troacctid claims complete mage gives an official definition of the term.


Available to Cast


The definition of "available to cast" depends on whether the character prepares spells or casts spontaneously from a list of spells known
-snip-
A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher.

We've established metamagic'd spells are spells, therefore a sorcerer who has heightened spell and lesser burning orb of fire technically knows a level 9 spell.
The requirement of an unused spell slot is the problem. Versatile spellcaster does NOT give unused spell slots, therefore, I cannot use fiery burst until level 4.


And with Precocious Apprentice...

You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot

QED, with the combination of all three feats, I can throw 2d6 fiery bursts around at level 1.

I am closing this thread and opening my previously closed thread!

Thanks Eldariel! I cannot thank you enough for this!

Actually, I think I got enough advice form this forum, so i won't be opening it again.

Special thanks to Troacctid, Eldariel, Ger. Bessa, Bronk, and Guigarci.