3.5 Interesting barbarian for a new player

[Swaoeaeieu]

Hi there playground!

A friend of mine asked to join my currently slow running campaign. He has played dnd once for about 2 hours with a heavy houseruled version. so basically no experience.. However, he is a very imaginative guy and does not want to play 'just another boring fighter'. I agree, since the other players are also a little peculiar in their playstyle. So i was reminded of the incredible Hulk built i saw on the forum once.

We agreed it would be hilarious for the new guy to play a very cocky halfling, who when raging turns into a Large Goliath. especially if he, even as a halfling, lugs around his huge Greatsword. And funny is what we are going for.

I have a couple of questions for the playground:
1) to make the idea work i need 2 levels of something Strongheart halfling. the three levels of stoneblessed goliath. and then finally a level of goliath barbarian acf. However the party is now level 4. Is there a way to make it work earlier?
1b) for instance, could i make the first two levels barbarian and then retrain the acf when they reach level 5?

2) Goliath barbarian gives mountain rage, can that still be combined with whirling Frenzy barbarian?

3) Do you guys think this is too complicated for a new player?

4) I never played a Barbarian, is that enough fun (does it have enough options) for a new player, who is used to WoW and the like?

5) any other hints or tips to make this built weird, fun and cool at the same time?

The other members of the party are a Psychic warrior human, a star elf cloistered cleric focus on mind control, an aventi sorcerer (just wants to blast and control the weather) and a poison dusk lizardfolk ranger focussed on bows and poisons.

Thanks in advance playground!!

[HammeredWharf]

I guess something like Fighter 2 / Goliath Stoneblessed 3 / Goliath Barbarian 1 would work, but it's a gimmicky build that's not particularly effective. Stoneblessed in an awful PRC by itself, and changing from small to large doesn't benefit you. In fact, based on that ability's description, your equipment doesn't change in size when you grow, and that would suck for a halfling.

If your player if familiar with other RPGs and you know the rules well, you could make a barbarian/warblade multiclass. They're really good and not too complex in-game, but the character-building mechanics behind maneuvers can be tricky for new players.

[Eldariel]

I'd go Ranger 2/Stoneblessed 3/Barbarian (Mountain Rage) 1 unless ToB is on the table. Mountain Rage is not by letter compatible with Whirling Frenzy but you can always talk with the GM. And yeah, I second Warblade. Tome of Battle is really simple and keeps the game a bit more interesting for martial types in terms of combat; you have few more options in addition to "I hit it again" (and combat maneuvers which are basically only worth it if you specialize). Few attacks of different color to go with it. You could instead thus do e.g. Warblade 2/Stoneblessed 3/Barbarian 2/Warblade -> Extra Rage handles the Hulking Out needs of most people. Fluff as desired, work out silly kinks like what Wharf brought up if necessary with the DM and go from there. I could certainly imagine myself enjoying such a character if I were the new guy!

[HammeredWharf]

My main concern would be the character's usefulness in combat. You already have a psychic warrior in the party, and they're among the best melee classes in 3.5. It would probably not be fun for the barbarian guy if his "Hulk rage" only resulted in him doing 1/5 of the psychic warrior's damage per round.

[Inevitability]

My main concern would be the character's usefulness in combat. You already have a psychic warrior in the party, and they're among the best melee classes in 3.5. It would probably not be fun for the barbarian guy if his "Hulk rage" only resulted in him doing 1/5 of the psychic warrior's damage per round.

It'd depend on the PW's optimization level. Barbarians are pretty straightforward: grab a big weapon and go to town. Psychic Warriors, on the other hand, can be nothing more than bad fighters if unoptimized.

[Swaoeaeieu]

For all you lovely people who advice to ask the DM, thats me :P so i can handwave anything i think is best.

For everyone sayint ToB, i keep telling the group to start using it since i love it and its fun. but no player ever wants to try. so maybe giving the newguy some of it and helping him make it work would be good for the entire group...

The PsyWar is a player who knows the potential power of the class, but is also a really social player who asures me he will do nothin rediculous, unless it becomes the norm.

The idea of going stoneblessed followed by barbarian is indeed gimicky at best. But its a pretty lighthearted campaign, and i would rather see weird gimicks then minmaxing dmg. if i wanted that i would have just handed the guy an ubercharger and be done with it.

I was also thinking of dungeoncrasher fighter and using the large rage to qualify for knockback. but that is pretty situational, ToB might be better.

Also, on items, dont magic items grow to the users size? or is that just the once when they first equip it? And if not, maybe go around barechested and use a ring of arming?

[ComaVision]

The thing is that the effort you're putting in is just to build a basic Barbarian, with only the usual Barbarian options. The idea sounds funny but it does not have options. He'd be better off being a PsyWar and using Expansion to get bigger as well as having other options.

[Red Fel]

I have a couple of questions for the playground:
1) to make the idea work i need 2 levels of something Strongheart halfling. the three levels of stoneblessed goliath. and then finally a level of goliath barbarian acf. However the party is now level 4. Is there a way to make it work earlier?

Not really, no.

Also, keep in mind the limitations on Mountain Rage, the Goliath racial substitution ability - it only makes you large. It explicitly states that you do not increase in grapple or weapon size - which paradoxically creates a large creature who, in this case, can't use large weapons without some other way to do so.


1b) for instance, could i make the first two levels barbarian and then retrain the acf when they reach level 5?

Retraining rules are in the PHB II. Short version: Yes. Retraining allows you to exchange one class feature option for another legal one. Rage and Mountain Rage are both legal class feature options for a Goliath Barbarian.


2) Goliath barbarian gives barbarian rage, can that still be combined with Frenzy barbarian?

Incorrect. Goliath Barbarian gives Mountain Rage, which replaces ordinary Rage.

Do you mean Whirling Frenzy ACF? Because no, it cannot. You have already swapped out Rage for Mountain Rage; you cannot also swap it out for Whirling Frenzy. If, on the other hand, you mean the Frenzied Berserker class, then yes, Frenzy explicitly stacks with any source of Rage.


3) Do you guys this is too complicated for a new player?

Not complicated, but a bit unnecessary, and in the long run it will probably make him weaker.


4) I never played a Barbarian, is that enough fun (does it have enough options) for a new player, who is used to WoW and the like?

It's fairly simple; rage out, smash thing. If you like basic point-and-click combat, it's a pretty simple class to grasp, that's reasonably effective at its intended purpose. If you want complexity, tactics, or options, you have to work a bit harder to get a Barbarian there.


5) any other hints or tips to make this built weird, fun and cool at the same time?

Fist of the Forest or Frostrager are fun PrCs if your guy doesn't see a need for weapons. Other than that, have a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?105525-3-5e-Being-Bane-Eldariel-s-Guide-to-Barbarians).

[Gruftzwerg]

Frenzy? You mean Frenzied Berserker? If that's what you're talking about, pls don't. Don't give it into the hands of a new & unexperienced player. I had 2 times where a new player(to d&d/p&p rpg) got a Frenzied Berserker from the DM. The player wanted to play something berserkish and the only thing that comes into peoples mind is Frenzied Berserker...
I guess I don't have to say that every time, the new player barb ended with a player kill (and one of em was me..:smallannoyed:). A regular Barb-rage does fill the propose for this too. You(r player) don't need Frenzy, believe me ^^

Instead go for Bear Warrior (1) @lvl8 and get into Warshaper @lvl9. If you add the ACF for Pounce @lvl1 Barb, you have a solid template for a build. The problem is to fill the first 7 lvls with barb and some dips (fighter or any PRC you can squeeze in @lvl 6&7). The entry in the role/identity of the build comes a bit late, but it is sure a fun & complex build for a newbie.
He'll get crit immunity and reach combined with his pounce ability. Can fight in his bear form if desired. Imho a far better theme than the stupid "I'll gore anything (party members included)"-guy.

:smallbiggrin:just my 2cents

PS: or what about a monk gish build like the one in my signature?^^ pls, just dont do the Frenzy thing, pls have mercy with the other players

[Shpadoinkle]

I think you should consider dropping the idea of taking the barbarian class altogether. The PC can still come from a barbarian tribe, but I don't think the class itself is going to give you what you want. Also, I don't know enough about ACFs and stuff to give input on the concept of increasing his size during a fight. But you DID mention ToB, and being as that's one of my favorite 3e books, I'd like to weigh in on that.

I think making the character a warblade (maybe with a dip in fighter to get heavy armor and ranged weapon proficiencies, as well as a bonus feat or two) would work. Even low level maneuvers can help you lay out pretty solid damage at level 4, and ought to provide much the same effect you're looking for ("He's three feet tall, how is he hitting like a freaking truck?!") Might also convince your other players to finally crack open a copy themselves.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I meant whirling frenzy ACF and have fixed OP just in case. i cant belive i let slip so many little mistakes XD

@redfel: regarding the large creature who cant wield large weapons. i read that different. i think it says that since a goliath can normally use large weapons because of powerfull build, it does not increase his weapon to huge. it stays large.


I think i will ask him if Warblade sounds like fun to use for the other levels. But he is pretty sold on the 'hulking out' so i think i will keep that part.
thanks guys!

[Gruftzwerg]

But he is pretty sold on the 'hulking out' so i think i will keep that part.
thanks guys!

What about Barb4/Sorcerer1 (get enlarge person + mage armor) and than go Dragon Disciple for extra stats & style? Imho a good build for hulking out early (@lvl2 Barb1/Sorc1: 1. Enlarge Person 2.Rage).

[ComaVision]

What about Barb4/Sorcerer1 (get enlarge person + mage armor) and than go Dragon Disciple for extra stats & style? Imho a good build for hulking out early (@lvl2 Barb1/Sorc1: 1. Enlarge Person 2.Rage).

That's pretty bad, and boring.

[OldTrees1]

@redfel: regarding the large creature who cant wield large weapons. i read that different. i think it says that since a goliath can normally use large weapons because of powerfull build, it does not increase his weapon to huge. it stays large.

That reading, whether RAW or not, is a good ruling. Since you are the DM, it is your place to make good rulings.

Another place to consider a ruling: Since Goliaths normally wield large weapons, Mountain Rage does not also increase the size of your weapon. However Halflings do not normally wield large weapons. This means Mountain Rage will toggle between incorrect and correct sized weapons. I suggest ruling it so that Mountain Rage will also grow the weapon if not growing it would render it the wrong size.


For Hulking out, the War Hulk prestige class from Miniature's Handbook is a nice option. I would suggest considering some rulings there too (like making the No Time to Think or even the entire prestige class toggle with the use of Mountain Rage). Compatible with Warblade too.

[Magesmiley]

My first take is that this might be too complicated for a new player, unless he's previously played other tabletop RPGs. And there is a fair bit of difference between an MMO and a tabletop game (where less is handled for you and you have more to track and understand). For most new players just getting used to the flow of combat takes a few sessions.

I strongly recommend not trying to mix too many things in. A lot of new players get overwhelmed with too many choices.

I'd build a basic barbarian with a couple of interesting feats that let him do something a bit different on occasion. Maybe a few fun skills. (A barbarian with ranks in Use Magic Device and a couple of oddball wands just screams fun to me).

[Gruftzwerg]

That's pretty bad, and boring.

I don't think so. Take Goliath Powerful Build or Monkey Grip. Add the size increase from Enlarge Person and the reach it gives and you have a pretty solid early game build. Take Power Attack and Cleave and start the riot. Imho a fine build for a newbie who just wants to "hulk out"

[ComaVision]

I don't think so. Take Goliath Powerful Build or Monkey Grip. Add the size increase from Enlarge Person and the reach it gives and you have a pretty solid early game build. Take Power Attack and Cleave and start the riot. Imho a fine build for a newbie who just wants to "hulk out"

And said newbie will be outclassed more and more by the other party members as the game goes on until he's either discouraged from playing or offered a rebuild.

[Gruftzwerg]

And said newbie will be outclassed more and more by the other party members as the game goes on until he's either discouraged from playing or offered a rebuild.

Imho this won't he the fact until the later levels, and the question is how far this campain will go. Will they ever see those levels? And I don't think that if the build is done well, that damage wise this will be the case before the really later levels. The build can take many of the Power Attack/Charge options that other builds take to to stay somewhat reliable as melee.
If your are instead referring to the gap between melee/caster, that's another story, but the "hulking out" build will always be in this category.

Pounce + enlarge person + monkey grip/powerful build + Power Attack/Charge feasts will hold the newbie for a long time over water.

[Red Fel]

@redfel: regarding the large creature who cant wield large weapons. i read that different. i think it says that since a goliath can normally use large weapons because of powerfull build, it does not increase his weapon to huge. it stays large.

Well, let's check the precise language of Mountain Rage.


A goliath barbarian who takes the 1st-level racial substitution level can tap into the mountain's strength to increase his size and power during a rage. When he rages, his size category increases to Large. (Although his size category increases by one step, the goliath barbarian's height only increases by a foot or so and his mass only increases by about 30-40%, so his equipment still fits normally.) This change increases the barbarian's space and reach to 10 feet and applies a -1 penalty on attack rolls and to AC. However, he does not gain additional benefits on weapon size and grapple checks, since he already has them from his powerful build ability.

So let's parse that, one sentence at a time.
The first sentence is fluff.
While raging, he becomes Large. That's obvious and explicit.
His size goes up, but he doesn't really grow, so his gear fits normally. This creates an incongruity, because a Halfling becoming Large would obviously grow more than a foot or so, so his gear would not fit normally.
His space and reach increase, he takes a penalty on attacks and AC. Fine and explicit.
He does not gain the increase to weapon size and grapples, because he already has them. This statement is two parts - one, he doesn't gain the increase, and two, the reason why. The fact is that our Halfling does not have the Powerful Build ability, and thus this creates another incongruity.
Now, Oldtrees makes a good point:

That reading, whether RAW or not, is a good ruling. Since you are the DM, it is your place to make good rulings.

In the interests of fun, I see no problem with making a ruling that says, yeah, let's just straight-up make this Halfling Large for the duration of his Mountain Rage. Where I disagree with OldTrees is in the assertion that Mountain Rage should appropriately grow the Halfling's weapon. Instead, I'd suggest getting him a weapon with the Sizing enhancement, and then - if you want to be nice - making it automatic instead of standard action. He'd probably need the same on armor.


I think i will ask him if Warblade sounds like fun to use for the other levels. But he is pretty sold on the 'hulking out' so i think i will keep that part.
thanks guys!

Warblade is indeed a super fun class, although it is a bit more bookkeeping than your typical melee - one has to keep track of maneuvers and how they work. This is easily addressed by printing out maneuver cards (which WotC has generously put online (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a)), but it's still a potential challenge for a new player, albeit not as challenging as bookkeeping on a full caster.

[Warrnan]

I second the warhulk class! I once saw a build on here where a playgrounder took warhulk and a shield and basically made a walking talking bulldozer. It was sick for crowd controlling multiple smaller enemies. Very fun. I'll try to dig up the build.

Credit to Oldtrees1:
Rogue 1 (Martial) / Barbarian 2 (Goliath, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) / Rogue +3 / Fighter 1 (Sneak Attack, Thug) / Warhulk 4 / mixture of Rogue +4 and Fighter +3 to reach +12 BAB at 18th / Rogue +2

So the concept is that warhulk can hit multiple people with each attack using a shield, pounce, Shield slam, shield charge, knock-back and knock down feats you can essentially reinact the start of the fellowship of the ring movie but with a shield. (4th one down https://www.tumblr.com/search/sauron%20gif)

Basically you throw people around leaving them tripped and dazed while being large.

The whole changing sizes thing could still happen given several of the methods discussed in this thread already.