Uses for the Thiefs Fast hands ability

[AmbientRaven]

So, I was discussing with a friend possible uses for the Fast hands rogue ability. it seems very average at a glance, so we were wondering what items could be used as a bonus action to make this more appealing. This is the list we came up with

Acid - Obvious Use
Alchemist Fire - Obvious Use
Ball Bearings - Obvious Use
Caltrops - Obvious Use
Grappling Hook - Throw at a target to try and yank them towards you/away form an ally
Holy Water (undead) - Obvious Use
Hunting Trap - Place it, or alternatively, just throw it at some one.
Manacles - Grappel them as an action then bonus action manacle them
Mirror - Shine in ana rchers eyes to give him disadvantage
Pot of Iron - sneak up on a target, place on head, profit
Potion of Healing - Obvious Use
Vial - Fill vial with *misc* (I am fond of a vial of bees myself), throw at target

This is our list. Any other ideas?

[coredump]

Healers Feat and healers kit.

Healers kit and teammate at 0 hp.

[RickAllison]

This is the one that lets you use objects as a bonus action? Fire and prepare siege weapons faster! With Haste, a thief can fire a cannon every turn!

[SliceandDiceKid]

Interact inappropriately with the female boss???

[GlenSmash!]

Interact inappropriately with the female boss???

Or male boss. Who are we to judge a Thief's preferences :smallwink:

[Coffee_Dragon]

Quaffing potions with Fast Hands is explicitly disallowed in the rules.

[RickAllison]

SliceandDiceKid, GlenSmash!, your penance for your abuse of these forums is to post those suggestions in the Things I May No Longer Do While Playing X (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478028-Things-I-May-No-Longer-Do-While-Playing-X-Bard-is-not-a-valid-choice) thread.

EDIT: Coffee_Dragon, citation? If it's explicitly there, all you need is an actual quote.

[eastmabl]

EDIT: Coffee_Dragon, citation? If it's explicitly there, all you need is an actual quote.

AFB, but from the SRD, it looks like he's wrong.

Fast Hands ability (p. 40-41): "You can the bonus action granted by Cunning Action to ... take the Use an Object action."

Use an Object action (p. 94): "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."

Potions of healing entry (p. 68): "drinking or administering a potion requires an action."

A potion of healing is an object that requires an action to use through drinking/administering. Therefore, it uses the Use an Object action, which the rogue can use as a Bonus action through his Fast Hands ability.

[Coffee_Dragon]

DMG p141: "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item."

[RickAllison]

AFB, but from the SRD, it looks like he's wrong.

Fast Hands ability (p. 40-41): "You can the bonus action granted by Cunning Action to ... take the Use an Object action."

Use an Object action (p. 94): "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."

Potions of healing entry (p. 68): "drinking or administering a potion requires an action."

A potion of healing is an object that requires an action to use through drinking/administering. Therefore, it uses the Use an Object action, which the rogue can use as a Bonus action through his Fast Hands ability.


DMG p141: "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item."

So the issue is the clarification of whether the Potion of Healing counts as a magic item for this issue. If it is a magic item, it cannot be used with Fast Hands. If it isn't a magic item, it can be. Unfortunately, the potion occurs both in the magic item section of the DMG and in the regular equipment section of the PHB. I'll put out a tweet about this to Sage Advice.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Is anyone seriously contesting that a healing potion with an entry in the list of magic items is a magic item?

[RickAllison]

Is anyone seriously contesting that a healing potion with an entry in the list of magic items is a magic item?

Well, yeah. Honestly, the section you quoted was about activating a magic item:


Activating some magic items requires a user to do
omething special, such as holding the item and uttering
a command word.

That's different than just quaffing a potion. It doesn't require command words or anything special. If you can drink a beer as a Use an Object action, you should be able to quaff a potion. That's compounded with potions of healing being found in the PHB in the mundane equipment section.

[R.Shackleford]

Is anyone seriously contesting that a healing potion with an entry in the list of magic items is a magic item?

Well, you can always have a healing potion that isn't magical. HP isn't always "meat" so the healing potion can just be an upper.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Well, yeah. Honestly, the section you quoted was about activating a magic item:

That's different than just quaffing a potion. It doesn't require command words or anything special.

"Some items are used up when they are activated. A potion or an elixir must be swallowed [...]"

This is neither hidden nor ambiguous.


If you can drink a beer as a Use an Object action, you should be able to quaff a potion.

Sure, but it's not the rules.

It's actually consistent with some old justifications for why quaffing a potion takes a whole minute in 2E, e.g. you have to carefully unseal it, let it breathe, etc.

[coredump]

It is clearly a magic item. The real question is if quaffing a potion qualifies as "activating" it and thus can't be done with "use an object".

[RickAllison]

"Some items are used up when they are activated. A potion or an elixir must be swallowed [...]"

This is neither hidden nor ambiguous.



Sure, but it's not the rules.

It's actually consistent with some old justifications for why quaffing a potion takes a whole minute in 2E, e.g. you have to carefully unseal it, let it breathe, etc.

And this is why I am asking it in Sage Advice. If you only look at it from the PHB (like eastmabl), it works perfectly. If you only look at it from the DMG (like you are), it doesn't work. It is a conflict in the RAW.

[R.Shackleford]

It is clearly a magic item. The real question is if quaffing a potion qualifies as "activating" it and thus can't be done with "use an object".

I see a character drinking a potion before battle and then half way through using an action to activate it.

Or sneaking into a place that checks for magic. There is no magic activated on you until you use the action.

Unless you urinate the potion out it should stay in you at least for a while...

[gfishfunk]

Pickpocket an ally to pull out their healing potion.

[R.Shackleford]

Pickpocket an ally to pull out their your healing potion.

Fixed that for you ;)

[Corran]

Throwing a flask of oil works well if the target takes any fire damage in the subsequent rounds (1 min duration if I am not mistaken).

ps: Dont all these attacks count as improvised weapon attacks? If yes, tavern brawler might be quite handy in a character hat pulls many of the tricks in the op. Out of topic but just saying...

[JoeJ]

Pickpocket an enemy to pull out your healing potion. Or whatever else they have that's cool.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Not entirely sure why pickpocketing applies there specifically - if you actually can grab whatever they have that you want, it's not like you care if they notice. So that would be if the DM decides Sleight of Hand is especially useful for digging into enemy pockets or whatnot while engaged in mortal kombat.

[R.Shackleford]

Not entirely sure why pickpocketing applies there specifically - if you actually can grab whatever they have that you want, it's not like you care if they notice. So that would be if the DM decides Sleight of Hand is especially useful for digging into enemy pockets or whatnot while engaged in mortal kombat.

Rogues are squishy and you just used your Cunning Action to steal from an enemy... You want to stay hidden so you don't have to use your action to hide.

[Ruslan]

So, I was discussing with a friend possible uses for the Fast hands rogue ability. it seems very average at a glance, so we were wondering what items could be used as a bonus action to make this more appealing. This is the list we came up with

Acid - Obvious Use
Alchemist Fire - Obvious Use
Ball Bearings - Obvious Use
Caltrops - Obvious Use
Grappling Hook - Throw at a target to try and yank them towards you/away form an ally
Holy Water (undead) - Obvious Use
Hunting Trap - Place it, or alternatively, just throw it at some one.
Manacles - Grappel them as an action then bonus action manacle them
Mirror - Shine in ana rchers eyes to give him disadvantage
Pot of Iron - sneak up on a target, place on head, profit
Potion of Healing - Obvious Use
Vial - Fill vial with *misc* (I am fond of a vial of bees myself), throw at target

This is our list. Any other ideas?
Many of those actions would qualify as an Attack, not Use Object. Throwing a Grappling Hook at someone, throwing Holy Water or Acid on someone... I dunno, DM might let get away with it by Rule of Cool, I guess, but don't count on it in advance. Caltrops, Ball Bearings and Healing Potions/Kits are perfectly fine, of course.

[krugaan]

Pickpocket an enemy to pull out your healing potion. Or whatever else they have that's cool.

You just think this is my healing potion... /sexualinnuendo

Also, the rise in fast hands leads to a rise in poison potions being carried, lol.

[RickAllison]

You just think this is my healing potion... /sexualinnuendo

Also, the rise in fast hands leads to a rise in poison potions being carried, lol.

You know, I had just asked my DM about what the check would be to make a fake health potion :smallwink:

[Vogonjeltz]

And this is why I am asking it in Sage Advice. If you only look at it from the PHB (like eastmabl), it works perfectly. If you only look at it from the DMG (like you are), it doesn't work. It is a conflict in the RAW.

Although I'm all for asking when in doubt, I'm fairly certain this was already answered either in Sage Advice or the Errata.

Also, from the PHB on 153: "Drinking or administering a potion takes an action."

Note: It does not say takes the Use an Object action, but just 'an action'.

Unless anyone can find an actual citation in the books of drinking a healing potion being Use an Object?

[RickAllison]

Although I'm all for asking when in doubt, I'm fairly certain this was already answered either in Sage Advice or the Errata.

Also, from the PHB on 153: "Drinking or administering a potion takes an action."

Note: It does not say takes the Use an Object action, but just 'an action'.

Unless anyone can find an actual citation in the books of drinking a healing potion being Use an Object?

None of the object actions do. The Use an Object action:


"When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."

Or these:


Applying the poison takes an action.

Drinking or administering the potion takes an action.

As an action, you can spread a bag of caltrops..

To post a few. So by the PHB, if a thief cannot drink the potion he also cannot spread caltrops.

[Alerad]

- Unstrap a saddle from under the rider

- Undo somebody's belt

- Untie their shoes. Use Fast hands again to tie them together.

- Open or close a knight's helmet

- Unlock a locked door, move through then lock it again (Fast hands + Action)

- Unleash a leashed dog, wolf or a tiger.

- Drink three ales in one turn (Use an object, Action, Fast hands). Four if you MC to Fighter 2 for Action surge. Five with Haste.

[R.Shackleford]

You just think this is my healing potion... /sexualinnuendo

Also, the rise in fast hands leads to a rise in poison potions being carried, lol.

After a time like that, I don't think enemy would be the word to describe the person getting pick pocketed...

[PeteNutButter]

The best use I've seen with this is a character who found one of the alchemy jars and used it to make nearly limitless poison, and poisoned a blade/arrows every time he needed to. It also can work with some familiars, assuming your DM lets you milk them for poison.

A level 3 thief with magic initiate or ritual caster could have his own pet snake and milk him for a solid poison, which he can slap on his weapon as a bonus action. Alternatively he could even milk a companion's pet for the poison.

[RaynorReynolds]

Pot of Iron - sneak up on a target, place on head, profit

My favorite post of the week!

[Coffee_Dragon]

The thing that's making me wonder about these "put iron mask on foe's head, snap shut" and "starve weasel, insert in foe's pants" and "drop foe's pants, laugh" type of thing to do with a bonus action is that I don't see anyone devoting threads to "Ridiculously Inconveniencing Things not Covered by the Conflict Resolution Rules that You Could Do with Your Regular Action If the DM Were Asleep", even though that shouldn't be much less game-stopping.

[Specter]

It's important to note that even though you can't attack with acid/holy water, you can throw it on the ground to force enemy movement (or else they'll take damage).

You can also apply poison to a weapon using your bonus action, which can be gold in the right situations.

[Vogonjeltz]

The best use I've seen with this is a character who found one of the alchemy jars and used it to make nearly limitless poison, and poisoned a blade/arrows every time he needed to. It also can work with some familiars, assuming your DM lets you milk them for poison.

A level 3 thief with magic initiate or ritual caster could have his own pet snake and milk him for a solid poison, which he can slap on his weapon as a bonus action. Alternatively he could even milk a companion's pet for the poison.

Has to be unconscious or a corpse to harvest poison, familiars and other conjured creatures disappear at 0 hp. It's possible to harvest from a snake but both undesirable and more dangerous than just buying it.

[Coffee_Dragon]

It's important to note that even though you can't attack with acid/holy water, you can throw it on the ground to force enemy movement (or else they'll take damage).

Is this in the rules? Sounds odd that if you throw a small vial of acid on the ground it would have any effect whatsoever.

[PeteNutButter]

Has to be unconscious or a corpse to harvest poison, familiars and other conjured creatures disappear at 0 hp. It's possible to harvest from a snake but both undesirable and more dangerous than just buying it.

Why is it undesirable to use your familiar for a free poison that is better(2d4 damage, save for half) than the one you can buy in the phb, assuming your DM even has a place you can buy it?

With a chain pact warlock in the party you could harvest his psuedodragon's poison for a DC 10 sleep effect. With enough attacks (extra attack from MC/TWF after poison(s) are applied) you can dish out quite a bit of sleep DC 10 saves. Unless that big bad has immunity to sleep or +9 on his save, there is always a chance that a single attack could take him out.

[RickAllison]

Why is it undesirable to use your familiar for a free poison that is better(2d4 damage, save for half) than the one you can buy in the phb, assuming your DM even has a place you can buy it?

With a chain pact warlock in the party you could harvest his psuedodragon's poison for a DC 10 sleep effect. With enough attacks (extra attack from MC/TWF after poison(s) are applied) you can dish out quite a bit of sleep DC 10 saves. Unless that big bad has immunity to sleep or +9 on his save, there is always a chance that a single attack could take him out.

Not quite true (though I've actually used this!). It is a DC 11 Con save to be poisoned for an hour (really powerful, actually). If they fail by five or more (so less than or equal to 6), they fall unconscious. To avoid that affect, all they need a +6.

[PeteNutButter]

Not quite true (though I've actually used this!). It is a DC 11 Con save to be poisoned for an hour (really powerful, actually). If they fail by five or more (so less than or equal to 6), they fall unconscious. To avoid that affect, all they need a +6.

Thanks, I was AFB. Still potent considering many foes don't have much wisdom at all. Even with a +3 on their save, if you manage to hit them with 3 attacks a round that's 15% per hit, so 45% they fail one or more (by 5).

[RickAllison]

Thanks, I was AFB. Still potent considering many foes don't have much wisdom at all. Even with a +3 on their save, if you manage to hit them with 3 attacks a round that's 15% per hit, so 45% they fail one or more (by 5).

It's a Con save, which many powerful creatures tend to have more of. With a +3, it would actually be 1-.85^3 (subtract the probability that they don't ever fail by that much), or 0.386 probability. Still a really decent probability.

Also note that just failing the check to be poisoned for an hour already makes it better than the standard poison. Remember that the poisoned condition applies disadvantage to all attack rolls and ability checks. Your grappler will greatly appreciate the creature being even worse at grappling than normal.

[R.Shackleford]

Your grappler will greatly appreciate the creature being even worse at grappling than normal.

More fun, make sure Grappler has enlarged person on them.

Advantage + expertise (athletics) + enemy at disadvantage = wiiiiiiin

[eastmabl]

DMG p141: "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item."

Also, not to heap fuel on the fire, but that's not located anywhere in the SRD. I know that the 5e SRD isn't supposed to be nearly as exhaustive as 3.5 was, but this is the kind of rule that really ought to be available to 3P game designers.

As for healing potion being magical v. mundane, I just had this discussion with a lead for Greyhawk Reborn (a living campaign that I write for). The campaign's opinion seems to be that because it is on the Adventuring Gear, a basic potion of healing is a mundane item for purposes of awarding treasure.

I'm not saying that I don't see your point or that I even disagree with you, but there is ambiguity here.

[Ruslan]

Use an Object action (p. 94): "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."


DMG p141: "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item."
Looks like the first quote is about mundane items such as caltrops, while the latter is about activated magical items. At least that's my understanding.

[PeteNutButter]

It's a Con save, which many powerful creatures tend to have more of. With a +3, it would actually be 1-.85^3 (subtract the probability that they don't ever fail by that much), or 0.386 probability. Still a really decent probability.

Also note that just failing the check to be poisoned for an hour already makes it better than the standard poison. Remember that the poisoned condition applies disadvantage to all attack rolls and ability checks. Your grappler will greatly appreciate the creature being even worse at grappling than normal.

Yep, knew that was my math was incorrect there. And con save isn't as good. Still I think it could occassionally break a fight.

[RickAllison]

Yep, knew that was my math was incorrect there. And con save isn't as good. Still I think it could occassionally break a fight.

Indeed. It is a case where it will either be useless (immune to conditions, too high of Con save, etc.), or incredibly powerful. Sounds about right!

[Specter]

Is this in the rules? Sounds odd that if you throw a small vial of acid on the ground it would have any effect whatsoever.

Not really, but it's hard to imagine someone just chilling on top of, well, acid.

[JackPhoenix]

Not really, but it's hard to imagine someone just chilling on top of, well, acid.

But it's easy to imagine someone just avoiding a small puddle (that's possibly reacting with the ground, thus getting less dangerous over time) while still standing in the same 5'x5' area without any problem.

[R.Shackleford]

Not really, but it's hard to imagine someone just chilling on top of, well, acid.

I had a friend who just chilled out while on acid, but then again the dude was weird to begin with. Everyone else was spazzy.

[Coffee_Dragon]

It is clearly a magic item. The real question is if quaffing a potion qualifies as "activating" it and thus can't be done with "use an object".



Q: does the use an object action include using the power of a magic item. Example, I have an item that can cast a spell.

A: Magic items aren't activated with the Use an Object action (see DMG, 141)


Q: What action is it to use magic items

A: Magic items, like many class features and monster abilities, use ad hoc actions, rather than the basic actions.

No specific mention of potions. Settled? Not settled?

[Specter]

About improvised weapons, you're not using an attack to throw the substances, so it doesn't matter. Throw it around the enemy's square.

About activating magic items x Use an Object action, potions don't require gestures or command words, so they're not activated. Even if you rule them as being, healing potions can be produced by anyone with a herbalist's kit, so they're not even magical.

[Coffee_Dragon]

About activating magic items x Use an Object action, potions don't require gestures or command words, so they're not activated.

As quoted on the previous page, the DMG is explicit about potions being activated.

[Wulfskadi]

Many of those actions would qualify as an Attack, not Use Object. Throwing a Grappling Hook at someone, throwing Holy Water or Acid on someone... I dunno, DM might let get away with it by Rule of Cool, I guess, but don't count on it in advance. Caltrops, Ball Bearings and Healing Potions/Kits are perfectly fine, of course.

Obviously any item usage that would require an attack roll would not count as using an item, as the finesse, accuracy and power make the action too complicated. However an action such as throwing something in the general vicinity of something else, or just splashing something on a creature directly in front of you, would be actions reduce-able by a dramatic increase in hand coordination.

Its a gray area so DM's should still use their judgement, but most of the time this should be clear cut.
(except when "quaffing" a potion apparently)

[Wulfskadi]

Has to be unconscious or a corpse to harvest poison, familiars and other conjured creatures disappear at 0 hp. It's possible to harvest from a snake but both undesirable and more dangerous than just buying it.

While this may be a reasonable rule for most monsters, snake venom is easily harvestable. All it requires is a glass, preferable covered in wax paper and a snake.

Instructions.

1) hold snake by base of skull
2) Keeping hand well clear of fangs, push cup toward snake until snake bites
3) watch the snake squirt poison out of its fangs into the glass after puncturing the wax paper.

For familiars

1) ask your snake familiar for poison politely
2) receive poison

[Lindonius]

Regardless of whether it's strictly RAW or not, almost every DM I've played with (and myself on the few games I've run) allows thieves to drink potions as a bonus action. This one simple ruling makes the thief a very viable alternative to the assassin. Too much thief bashing juxtaposed with assassin worship regarding the rogue class IMO.

[Kane0]

Shame you cant use your bonus action for skill checks. Would he especially useful for perception and such at the right time.

You could play an instrument or reference a book or climb a rope though, they are objects.
Which means you could play faster than the bard, search through tomes faster than the wizard and scale the wall faster than the fighter. With the right DM of course.

[MrFahrenheit]

Using it to pickpocket is just incredible, frankly. Had a thief/battlemaster in my party who, in round one vs an enemy with items could pickpocket the enemy's sheathed backup short sword and disarm his great sword. Next party member in imitative could kick the fallen sword away (or pick it up), and then the BBEG was punching for 1+str mod. Small price to pay for the thief (if hit) to not get stealth up as a bonus action in that first round.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Obviously any item usage that would require an attack roll would not count as using an item, as the finesse, accuracy and power make the action too complicated. However an action such as throwing something in the general vicinity of something else, or just splashing something on a creature directly in front of you, would be actions reduce-able by a dramatic increase in hand coordination.

Splashing something on a creature directly in front of you requires an attack roll, as stated explicitly under the entries for acid and holy water. If they're not directly in front of you, you're not splashing.

[Specter]

If people treat potions as magic items that need to be activated (I don't), fine. But that creates another relevant problem: you can't give them to an unconscious character either. Sleeping guys have no actions, right?

[Coffee_Dragon]

Potions can be drunk or administered with the same action, whichever that is (PH 153).

[TentacleSurpris]

Has to be unconscious or a corpse to harvest poison, familiars and other conjured creatures disappear at 0 hp. It's possible to harvest from a snake but both undesirable and more dangerous than just buying it.

Being asleep is unconscious. Source: a dictionary.

Familiars are creatures so they sleep unless the rules state otherwise, which they don't. Familiars can be milked for poison.

Edit: but more on topic, I like the use of just grabbing an enemy's weapon straight out of his scabbard before he draws it in round 1. Rogues have good initiative to go first. I like it.

[Vogonjeltz]

While this may be a reasonable rule for most monsters, snake venom is easily harvestable. All it requires is a glass, preferable covered in wax paper and a snake.

Sure, if this were real life, but it's not so the rule is quite clear.


Being asleep is unconscious. Source: a dictionary.

Familiars are creatures so they sleep unless the rules state otherwise, which they don't. Familiars can be milked for poison.

Edit: but more on topic, I like the use of just grabbing an enemy's weapon straight out of his scabbard before he draws it in round 1. Rogues have good initiative to go first. I like it.

In the case of the DMG the term used (incapacitated) has a specific in-game meaning. Sleeping doesn't count.

Grabbing a weapon off someone else is an attack.

[Temperjoke]

NSFW link, but this is one thought that came to mind with the Thief Fast Hands: http://oglaf.com/fingers/


Ahem

Another thought is kinda like Aladdin's introduction song, where he's slipping through the guards, dodging swords, swiping one of their belts to comically make the guard's pants fall, that sort of nimbleness. I mean, it'd need the DM's buy-in to allow it, but that sort of distraction and sleight-of-hand seems to be in line with a Thief Rogue.