Best Style Options for a Sacred Fist After Pummeling Charge Changes?

[weezymeisner]

I've been working on a Sacred Fist lately and was very excited to think I'd finished when someone pointed out that Pummeling Charge was no longer a style feat and couldn't be taken with Master of Many Styles anymore.

As a little backstory I'm rolling a Dwarven Sacred Fist of Strength and Luck. The initial goal was to leverage the Strength Blessing to land a lot more flurry hits since the Sacred Fist's attack bonus from Warpriest levels does not count as his Warpriest level and dish out some extra damage using the Dragon Style. I've made a level up spreadsheet here (I'd hyper link it but am still too new to the forum):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/13fNp1ZQEGHc9ybTG0I2xQ5GDrxKfV77Vc0IIiU2-fFo/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true

While bummed that I can't get Pummeling Charge until level 12, I still want to go with a Sacred Fist and am brainstorming alternate leveling strategies. I still feel splashing MoMS might be smart so I can get Fuse Style, but now I'm not sure when to splash it and which two styles would work best together. While I'll still probably flurry a bit I was thinking it might make sense to go for bigger hits? Perhaps trying to plan around Vital Strike?

As far as styles go I definitely feel Dragon Style is the obvious choice for a strength oriented Sacred Fist. In addition to that, I thought that Boar Style seemed appealing for extra damage, but no scaling made it seem like it would lose usefulness later on and the intimidate requirement makes it less appealing. Plus, I'm a Dwarf, so doing an Orcish style doesn't make a ton of sense flavor-wise. I was also considering Snapping Turtle for some defensive play, or possibly Snake Style for the interesting sense motive bonuses. Tiger Style also had some appeal to get Tiger Claw relatively early, which sounds pretty great in lieu of no pummeling charge? Would that be helpful? Do any of these work better than others?

Additionally, if anyone has advice on what to take for feats or if I should consider changing something in my level up plan (or if anything is wrong) I'd appreciate it! Thank you!

[Psyren]

I've been working on a Sacred Fist lately and was very excited to think I'd finished when someone pointed out that Pummeling Charge was no longer a style feat and couldn't be taken with Master of Many Styles anymore.

Your source isn't quite correct; Pummeling Charge was never a style feat, but it was and is still a feat in that style's path, and so a MoMS can still spend their "wildcard" style slots on it. The main difference now is that you must meet the prerequisites, where before you could ignore them, but Pummeling Charge has no real prereqs to speak of anyway beyond waiting until 8th level and so not a whole lot has changed, you just have to wait a little longer.



As a little backstory I'm rolling a Dwarven Sacred Fist of Strength and Luck. The initial goal was to leverage the Strength Blessing to land a lot more flurry hits since the Sacred Fist's attack bonus from Warpriest levels does not count as his Warpriest level and dish out some extra damage using the Dragon Style. I've made a level up spreadsheet here (I'd hyper link it but am still too new to the forum):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/13fNp1ZQEGHc9ybTG0I2xQ5GDrxKfV77Vc0IIiU2-fFo/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true

While bummed that I can't get Pummeling Charge until level 12, I still want to go with a Sacred Fist and am brainstorming alternate leveling strategies. I still feel splashing MoMS might be smart so I can get Fuse Style, but now I'm not sure when to splash it and which two styles would work best together. While I'll still probably flurry a bit I was thinking it might make sense to go for bigger hits? Perhaps trying to plan around Vital Strike?

Are you using Dragon Style primarily for the damage bonus, or the ability to charge through allies? If it's the former, then yes, you'll need to dip MoMS so you can have both styles active simultaneously. If it's just for the latter though, you can get by with no dip via Combat Style Master to switch styles as a free action. So you use Dragon Style to charge through an ally, and then during your charge, switch to Pummeling Style as a free action so that you get the combo at the end (once you reach the enemy.) That will save you Warpriest spell progression and other goodies.

You shouldn't bother with Vital Strike, no.



As far as styles go I definitely feel Dragon Style is the obvious choice for a strength oriented Sacred Fist. In addition to that, I thought that Boar Style seemed appealing for extra damage (but no scaling made it seem like it would lose usefulness later on), Snapping Turtle for some defensive play, or possibly Snake Style for the
interesting sense motive bonuses. Do any of these work better?

Boar Style/Ferocity doesn't just give you more damage, it also gives your unarmed strikes all three damage types (B/P/S). So it's definitely a solid one to use.

Another good "third style choice" is Jabbing Style - the new Pummeling Style is a rapid series of hits, so Jabbing will trigger and give you bonus damage on every hit after the first.

[weezymeisner]

Oh! Thank you that is all really helpful.

I didn't really pay attention to the wildcard slot since it happens at level 6 and I'm only splashing 1 MoMS level. Old guides talk about using a 1 level dip of MoMS to snag Pummeling Charge early (like level 2), which I thought would still be possible, but I don't see how that would ever have been possible unless it was originally a style feat? Or did MoMS wildcard start at level 1 or 2 and they didn't need to meet the prerequisites? It's a bit confusing. Basically, the way I understand it now there is no way to use the MoMS Bonus Style Feat to get Pummeling Charge, right? There's no way to get it until I can hit level 12 as a Sacred Fist, right?

As for Dragon Style, I was planning to use it for the extra damage but figured if I fused it with Pummeling Style for Pummeling Charge it would be great for both charging through AND getting a little extra damage in, but you're totally right I could use my Combat Style Master bonus to switch between situationally without Fuse Style.

Thanks for the recommendation on Vital Strike, since nobody mentions it I figure it wouldn't be a good idea but wanted to check.

That's interesting about Jabbing Style, that must get really powerful once you get a few extra attacks and would fuse really well with Pummeling Style/Charge. Early on I imagine Boar Style is more useful since you get the additional damage types plus the 2d6 extra damage for one extra attack, so until BAB is +6 it would be more advantageous than Jabbing Style, right?

I was just reading about Tiger Claws, that sounds like it might be really strong in conjunction with Dragon Style to do some big hits and increase my strength bonus, would that be worth considering? With Power Attack, Dragon Style, and Tiger Claws I'd be adding 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls + increase to my Strength bonus on one of the damage rolls
by an additional one-half my Strength bonus + 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike, right? So Although I'd only be doing two attacks my first attack would get 2 and 1/2 times my strength bonus in damage, that seems huge, especially if I get the hit bonus from my Strength Blessing and later can cast Bull's Strength on myself or something.

Thank you so much for the help!

[Psyren]

Oh! Thank you that is all really helpful.

I didn't really pay attention to the wildcard slot since it happens at level 6 and I'm only splashing 1 MoMS level. Old guides talk about using a 1 level dip of MoMS to snag Pummeling Charge early (like level 2), which I thought would still be possible, but I don't see how that would ever have been possible unless it was originally a style feat? Or did MoMS wildcard start at level 1 or 2 and they didn't need to meet the prerequisites? It's a bit confusing. Basically, the way I understand it now there is no way to use the MoMS Bonus Style Feat to get Pummeling Charge, right? There's no way to get it until I can hit level 12 as a Sacred Fist, right?

It was never possible to get it with 1 MOMS level. You used to be able to get it with 2 though; now you can't.

To my knowledge there is now no way to get Pummeling Charge any faster than by meeting the prereqs.



That's interesting about Jabbing Style, that must get really powerful once you get a few extra attacks and would fuse really well with Pummeling Style/Charge. Early on I imagine Boar Style is more useful since you get the additional damage types plus the 2d6 extra damage for one extra attack, so until BAB is +6 it would be more advantageous than Jabbing Style, right?

Haven't crunched the numbers (too lazy) so I couldn't really tell you. I just know they're both decent choices :smalltongue: Someone else might math out the DPR differences for you though.



I was just reading about Tiger Claw, that sounds like it might be really strong in conjunction with Dragon Style to do some big hits and increase my strength bonus, would that be worth considering? Thank you so much for the help!

They'll stack, but the only way to use all three at once (Dragon, Tiger, Pummeling) is 8 levels of MOMS, which it sounds like you don't want.

[weezymeisner]

It was never possible to get it with 1 MOMS level. You used to be able to get it with 2 though; now you can't.

To my knowledge there is now no way to get Pummeling Charge any faster than by meeting the prereqs.

Ah now I understand, thanks for clarifying. It's so hard to pick through what gets changed.


Haven't crunched the numbers (too lazy) so I couldn't really tell you. I just know they're both decent choices :smalltongue: Someone else might math out the DPR differences for you though.

Okay! I appreciate the direction and will have to take a good look at them.


They'll stack, but the only way to use all three at once (Dragon, Tiger, Pummeling) is 8 levels of MOMS, which it sounds like you don't want.

Right, I wouldn't use them all simultaneously. I guess the thought is once I get Pummeling Charge I'd primarily be using that + Dragon Style, but until I get that at level 12 I'll need to figure out the best option. Splashing MoMS early gets me Stunning Fist, though, which is nice to set me up for Dragon Ferocity. I guess the true focus of the build is how to effectively use Dragon Style, since it is the best for utilizing my strength bonus, and my Sacred Fist is focused on strength so it fits really well flavor-wise. I guess it's just a matter of whether I'd be more effective at early levels using Boar, Jabbing, or Tiger. Boar gives 2d6 extra damage if I land two hits on one target, jabbing does 1d6 on every additional hit (so pre-BAB +6 I'll only get 1d6 extra damage but then it will jump to potentially 3d6 extra damage since i'll get 1d6 per additional hit). Until then, though, I could be better off just getting the additional 1/2 Strength damage bonus from Tiger Claws, as that guarantees me two hits (counted as one like Pummeling Style) and the first hit gets a little extra damage. Tiger Style/Claws would then probably fall to the wayside once I get more attacks and pummeling charge, though, and then Jabbing Style would give me a lot of extra damage in higher levels, maybe enough that I'd abandon Dragon Style too for the most part. Hard to tell what would be most useful!

[weezymeisner]

Doing a little number crunching, assuming I understand it right I have some interesting potential numbers.

At level 5 I could use two styles fused, power attack, my Strength Blessing, Bull's Strength, and would have a BAB of +3. Bull's strength would give me +4 strength, boosting me to 20 Strength. The Strength Blessing would then give me a +5 to attack and the strength bonus damage (before counting Dragon Style or Tiger Claws), as my bonus would be +5.

Using all the above mentioned powers/spells/stats in conjunction with Boar's style and using power attack in conjunction with my strength blessing and Bull's Strength, and using Flurry of Blows l I could do the following damage (assuming that I get 1d8 since I have 4 Sacred Fist and 1 Monk level and Bull's Strength would put me at 20 Strength)
Minimum damage with 1 attack landing would be 10 damage (roll 1, +2 power attack, + 5 Strength Bonus, +2 Dragon Style)
Maximum damage (non critical) with two attacks landing would be 44 damage ([roll 8, +2 power attack, +5 Str Bonus, +2 Dragon Style] + [roll 8, +2 power attack, +5 Str Bonus] +[roll 12 extra damage])

With Tiger Style assuming the same things as above but using Tiger Claws instead of Flurry of Blows:
Minimum Damage would be 21 damage since if I land the one hit I get both damage rolls ([roll 1, +2 power attack, +5 Str bonus, +2(.5) Dragon Style + 2(.5) Tiger Claws bonus] + [roll 1, +2 power attack, + 5 Str Bonus]
Maximum Damage (non critical) would be 35 damage ([roll 8, +2 power attack, +5 Str bonus, +2(.5) Dragon Style + 2(.5) Tiger Claws bonus] + [roll 8, +2 power attack, + 5 Str Bonus]

Boar's style looks like more of a gamble as I need to count on both attacks hitting to really wrack up damage. Even if both attacks hit I could end up just doing 10 + 8 + 2 extra for 20 Damage, which don't add up to overcome DR. Meanwhile Tiger Claw, if it hits, gets to do two attacks worth of damage with a minimum of 21 damage and a lower maximum. Without doing some dice roll modeling it's hard to say exactly what the average damage would be but I'd expect Tiger Claw to be much higher on average than Boar Style. Since Boar Style has a much wider variance of attacks and damage ratios and takes a small hit to BAB since I have to flurry, while Tiger Claw gives that consistent damage that adds up within one strike. I'm thinking it makes the most sense.

I might have made some assumptions/mistakes, though. I'm assuming my damage rolls would be equal to a level 5 Monk because of my combined Sacred Fist and Monk levels but that could be wrong? It would change my attack rolls to 1d6 which would only lower the max damage by 4 in either case.