Building a castle/etc with Wall of Stone.

[JeffreyGator]

This may be another way of breaking the economy.

How big are some of the strongholds possible in the DMG?

Has anyone already done any calculations on how many 10x10 sections of stone wall each would be?

The most number of castings of wall of stone would be an MC Warlock 11/druid or wizard 9 which casts wall of stone 3/90 minutes all day long + 3 more each day. 21 castings for a 510 minute day.

(MC warlock 9 + druid/bard/wizard 11) can cast 2/80 minutes all day + 3/day 15 castings for a 470 minute day.

Even the 9th level druid or wizard casting 2/day and 3/day @10th level is going to be much faster than the given rates of building I suspect.

[gullveig]

You still need engineering and foundations so your castle of cards stone doesn't fall in itself.

[Mellack]

How many 10+ level casters are there around and how much do they charge? I haven't done the maths as I don't know of any RAW costs to have spells cast. Old editions would have had it cost 500 gp/casting. I would expect that you could hire a very large number of masons for the cost of that caster.

[RickAllison]

How many 10+ level casters are there around and how much do they charge? I haven't done the maths as I don't know of any RAW costs to have spells cast. Old editions would have had it cost 500 gp/casting. I would expect that you could hire a very large number of masons for the cost of that caster.

It costs nothing. All it takes is a spell slot, 10 minutes, and a piece of granite.

[JeffreyGator]

Yeah the card castle would need halved sections for buttresses etc as is built into the spell for spans of more than 20 feet.

consulting an engineer is cheaper than some of the listed building costs.

True you wouldn't pay a wizard to do this, but if you were a wizard/druid etc this seems much cheaper than buying stone and paying masons since you don't pay yourself 500gp for the casting but 4 gp per day for wealthy living.

You could also use a days worth of casting of this instead of leomunds hut when traveling overland if you don't need those castings that day.

30' tower 10x10 with 20' paved courtyard (3" walls) can be created with 2 castings. Eventually your traveling caster would get really good at making these.

As long as there was stone outcroppings for a base nearby and the daily allotment of 5th spells was still available.

[JeffreyGator]

It is also potentially considerably faster. (Granted downtime expenses appear to be money sinks)

There is a daily cost (if the character is present otherwise everything takes triple time) of about 100 gp

daily cost
temple/abbey 50000 400 125
guildhall, trading post 5000 60 83.33
small castle 25000 150 166.67
fort/tower 15000 100 150
palace 500000 1200 416.67

Imagine hiring a mage to sculpt a palace for 3 years at 500 gp / day. (note that with this much building the mage would acquire 4 tool proficiencies in the process of building the palace since only 30 minutes or so are spent casting each day. and the rest could be spent getting smarter about the crafting)

Fabricate would have this be fully furnished as well.

[SharkForce]

It costs nothing. All it takes is a spell slot, 10 minutes, and a piece of granite.

you're misunderstanding.

that's how much it costs you if *you* are the spellcaster.

the question he's raising is that if you are Lord Somebody the Important, Baron of the Barony of Baronistan, how much do you have to pay Smartguy the Magician to cast wall of stone on your behalf?

[JeffreyGator]

you're misunderstanding.

that's how much it costs you if *you* are the spellcaster.

the question he's raising is that if you are Lord Somebody the Important, Baron of the Barony of Baronistan, how much do you have to pay Smartguy the Magician to cast wall of stone on your behalf?

Actually much of the time I am thinking about the player as spellcaster, but I am also considering this from a Lord Important hiring mages rather than stonemasons - since mages are much more interesting to be able to claim as having built your castle.

In the strange warlock instance - you have high level people building/growing fairly large buildings (5000 sq ft+) in a day.

[Sigreid]

If you can get your mitts on a copy of the 3.x strongholds book they went into all that and I personally think they did a pretty good job. Really, it was one of the most well thought out supplements.

[Alejandro]

you're misunderstanding.

that's how much it costs you if *you* are the spellcaster.

the question he's raising is that if you are Lord Somebody the Important, Baron of the Barony of Baronistan, how much do you have to pay Smartguy the Magician to cast wall of stone on your behalf?

Whatever the market will bear, is the economics answer. However, D&D is not always good at economics. :D

If Smartguy the Magician is friends with or owes fealty to Lord Somebody, he may simply cast the spells for free.
Or, Smartguy may demand an important position in Baronistan, like being the Chief Vizier of Lord Somebody.
Or Smartguy may say "I have plenty of GP, but what I really need are X magical components or samples. Give me those."
Or several other capable wizards will bid on the job, and whoever comes in lowest will generally get the job.

Depends on your story and the conditions of Baronistan. :)

[Degwerks]

I've been thinking of the same thing. Mostly I have been wanting walls built around our town. I was figuring that we'd dig & level the ground as much as possible, and then lay 2 layers of walls of stone flat in the excavations. Then build the walls vertically on top. Would have to make it several castings deep though, a 6 inch wall isn't a serious deterrent.

Is there any free building sofware or something to try sketching this out? Map making stuff perhaps.?

[Segev]

Why not just cast mirage arcane to conjure a castle up? Sure, it has to be maintained every 10 days, but you can also, therefore, reformat it each time to accommodate changing needs.

And you can have laborers shoring up real areas all the time in the meantime, if you really want to. But Vizier Smartguy surely won't mind doing that as his main duty, to otherwise be kept so well and given such a highly honored place in Baronistan.

[Alejandro]

Are there any elementals/other creatures that can summon or shape stone often/at will? If so, it might be more cost effective to recruit or summon one of those.

[JeffreyGator]

I've been thinking of the same thing. Mostly I have been wanting walls built around our town. I was figuring that we'd dig & level the ground as much as possible, and then lay 2 layers of walls of stone flat in the excavations. Then build the walls vertically on top. Would have to make it several castings deep though, a 6 inch wall isn't a serious deterrent.

Is there any free building sofware or something to try sketching this out? Map making stuff perhaps.?

Not that many castings deep. Many city walls were stone faced with earth and rocks inside them.

With some foundation work and reinforcement you could get 10' of 20' high wall per casting.

Outer side is 1' stone (double thickness) there is 8.5 feet of dirt and rocks that are filled in and 6'" stone on the inner side.

Move earth lets you build 40' of ten foot trench with a 20' wall behind it every ten minutes for 2 hours - which is a faster wall building method. But doesn't work where there is lots of stone. You need some stone to cast Wall of Stone.

Ideally you start with a field and really big rock. Earthen ramparts around an area 120' on a side and a small tower built around the rock and the wizard spent 3 hours building a defensible camp for 100 people or so. You might than face some of the earthen wall with stone if you had more castings of the wall of stone spell.

[JeffreyGator]

Why not just cast mirage arcane to conjure a castle up? Sure, it has to be maintained every 10 days, but you can also, therefore, reformat it each time to accommodate changing needs.

And you can have laborers shoring up real areas all the time in the meantime, if you really want to. But Vizier Smartguy surely won't mind doing that as his main duty, to otherwise be kept so well and given such a highly honored place in Baronistan.

This has the feel to me of the classical Fey realm where you feel like you are elsewhere than you are.

Keeping the same general shape however, I am not sure that you would be able to climb flights of stairs in this mirage area or if the ceilings and wall would protect you well from the elements or from a siege.

[Alejandro]

Not that many castings deep. Many city walls were stone faced with earth and rocks inside them.

With some foundation work and reinforcement you could get 10' of 20' high wall per casting.

Outer side is 1' stone (double thickness) there is 8.5 feet of dirt and rocks that are filled in and 6'" stone on the inner side.

Move earth lets you build 40' of ten foot trench with a 20' wall behind it every ten minutes for 2 hours - which is a faster wall building method. But doesn't work where there is lots of stone. You need some stone to cast Wall of Stone.

Ideally you start with a field and really big rock. Earthen ramparts around an area 120' on a side and a small tower built around the rock and the wizard spent 3 hours building a defensible camp for 100 people or so. You might than face some of the earthen wall with stone if you had more castings of the wall of stone spell.

You could also do a different style, where you create/build a packed dirt wall with an acute angle slope facing "out", then use wall of stone laid over it to create a glacis wall. This style took off more when cannons started appearing, and you wanted low, angled walls to make the shots skip/bounce/not impact quite as hard, but it does exist in some older castles. Depending on the angle, enemies might be able to run up it to get at the top, but of course they'd be under fire the entire time.

[Segev]

This has the feel to me of the classical Fey realm where you feel like you are elsewhere than you are.

Keeping the same general shape however, I am not sure that you would be able to climb flights of stairs in this mirage area or if the ceilings and wall would protect you well from the elements or from a siege.
5e, at the least, has a version that makes it clear it would: it covers all 5 senses, and it even actually alters terrain from being clear to difficult or vice-versa. And calls out that even those who see it for what it is dimly see the illusion...and interact with it as if it were there due to its tactile elements. It's awesome.

[Hudsonian]

It seems to me like this would be a very clumsy castle as the spell makes 10'x10' blocks of stone... very, VERY thick walls. And ceilings aren't going to stay up for long. However, it seems like it could be used really well with some stone shape etc.

[Knaight]

It seems to me like this would be a very clumsy castle as the spell makes 10'x10' blocks of stone... very, VERY thick walls. And ceilings aren't going to stay up for long. However, it seems like it could be used really well with some stone shape etc.

It makes 10' by 10' by 6'', or 50 cubic feet. That's not necessarily all that clumsy. The text also says that you can shape it, albeit crudely. So, the spell should work pretty well at making the castle, but you'll probably want actual masons to finish the job. It just cuts out the grunt work involved in the quarrying and transport of stone, and the initial assembly of the big pieces. So, most of it.

[Hudsonian]

I see... I was AFB. Now I really like this idea. Until the bard gets M's Mansion that is.

[JeffreyGator]

Some interesting example of stuff that can be made with one casting of the spell.

11x20 long hall with a 45 sloped hip roof (3 inch think) with 3' overhangs. This has a 3inch floor and 6" walls. I used the last segment to create a fire pit/chimney and 10x10 loft in the center 8 feet above the floor (that stretches the rough shaping the most)

You can also make a 10 x 10 two-story tower pretty handily.

If you allow round formations and continue a pattern of 6 inch wall and 3 inch roofs and floors.

the math works for 18' diameter yurt with ten foot walls, a 3' wide sleeping shelf raised (8') above the floor around the interior circumference. The conical roof extends 3' past the exterior wall.

For a round two story tower, the exterior walls raise to 13' before the roof starts, there is a complete floor 8' from the ground and diameter reduces to 13'.

All of these seem to be much better structures than leomund's very cramped invisible tent.

OTOH, they do make a trail pretty easy to follow.

I could see the Lord Baronistan sending his vizier along the main roads of his barony and establishing a series of these every 1/2 day or so. Fabricated arcane locked door that only opens to someone bearing the baron's sigil.

[Segev]

Some interesting example of stuff that can be made with one casting of the spell.Is it actually that flexible? I would think, at least, the floors+walls+roof would be outside its arrangement capacity. I am very open to being proven wrong, though! This is pretty cool.

Plus, if not, 2-3 castings is still probably "okay" for one day's work.


I could see the Lord Baronistan sending his vizier along the main roads of his barony and establishing a series of these every 1/2 day or so. Fabricated arcane locked door that only opens to someone bearing the baron's sigil.

I forget, is arcane lock permanent in 5e? Or can it be made so?

[RickAllison]

Is it actually that flexible? I would think, at least, the floors+walls+roof would be outside its arrangement capacity. I am very open to being proven wrong, though! This is pretty cool.

Plus, if not, 2-3 castings is still probably "okay" for one day's work.



I forget, is arcane lock permanent in 5e? Or can it be made so?

Arcane Lock persists until it is dispelled.

[JeffreyGator]

Is it actually that flexible? I would think, at least, the floors+walls+roof would be outside its arrangement capacity. I am very open to being proven wrong, though! This is pretty cool.



I think that it is pretty flexible. To make the hip-roof I am essentially folding a 10x20 card. Most square walls are square walls still. I play with stuff more when creating circle.

For quick and dirty though you can arrange six 10x10 walls hexagonally on top of a 20x20 3" inch think floor with a similar ceiling.

With shaping the hangover bits of floor and ceiling can give some leveling options for an uneven starting surface.

The wall can have any shape you desire, though it can't occupy the same space as a creature or object. The wall doesn't need to be vertical or rest on any firm foundation. It must, however, merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. Thus, you can use this spell to bridge a chasm or create a ramp.
If you create a span greater than 20 feet in length, you must halve the size of each panel to create supports. You can crudely shape the wall to create crenellations, battlements, and so on.

[JeffreyGator]

If you can get your mitts on a copy of the 3.x strongholds book they went into all that and I personally think they did a pretty good job. Really, it was one of the most well thought out supplements.

I glanced through a copy of such.

Given that 5E has better wall of stone than even 20th level casting of the 3.x version I would think that this would make the stone wall component of the buildings essentially free.

I would argue that with the greater thickness possibilities that each stronghold space of 20x20x10 would be two castings of the spell. That is a small cottage with some interior walls and such.


level 16+ is free walls 4" thick x 400 sqft - 5e any level casting is 6" 1000 sqft


This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.

[Sigreid]

I glanced through a copy of such.

Given that 5E has better wall of stone than even 20th level casting of the 3.x version I would think that this would make the stone wall component of the buildings essentially free.



I'll take your word for the difference, I didn't really look to compare. That being said, there is still a wealth of information in that book that could be used to show what can be done with magic, what you need people for, and information about running a stronghold in general that is sorely missing all together in 5e.

[JoeJ]

I'll take your word for the difference, I didn't really look to compare. That being said, there is still a wealth of information in that book that could be used to show what can be done with magic, what you need people for, and information about running a stronghold in general that is sorely missing all together in 5e.

How much of that book is specific to 3e, as opposed to system agnostic?

On building a stronghold, I think i would require an Intelligence (Mason's tools) check to make a structure with a roof, or anything fancy. Stone architecture requires quite a bit of expertise to get it to not collapse under its own weight.

[Sigreid]

How much of that book is specific to 3e, as opposed to system agnostic?

On building a stronghold, I think i would require an Intelligence (Mason's tools) check to make a structure with a roof, or anything fancy. Stone architecture requires quite a bit of expertise to get it to not collapse under its own weight.

It mostly revolves around the economics of it all and the prices don't seem to have changed much. There would need to be DM rulings on some of the magical stuff.

[JoeJ]

It mostly revolves around the economics of it all and the prices don't seem to have changed much. There would need to be DM rulings on some of the magical stuff.

Cool. And a quick search shows that it's still on DriveThru RPG, so now I have something to save my pennies for. :smallsmile: