Balanced Second Wind buff?

[ZenBear]

How could Second Wind be made to scale better at high levels? 1d10+20 isn't much HP at lvl 20.

[MrStabby]

So the obvious question - does it need to be?

Some abilities are stronger than others and some are at different strengths at different stages of the game. This is ok at the start and becomes less relevant at higher levels but is this a problem?

Secondly, do you think the class overall is underpowered? If not, then what do you take away to balance this ability change?

[ZenBear]

So the obvious question - does it need to be?

Some abilities are stronger than others and some are at different strengths at different stages of the game. This is ok at the start and becomes less relevant at higher levels but is this a problem?

Secondly, do you think the class overall is underpowered? If not, then what do you take away to balance this ability change?

I absolutely believe the Fighter is underpowered. The only thing they contribute is damage. Utility is minimal; even the Battlemaster subclass only brings a bit of battlefield control but nothing close to what a caster can do. Survivability is moderate, high HP and AC but the first can be rapidly whittled down and the second circumvented by attacking Ability Saves. Indomitable is your only recourse here, but it's a very limited resource and not all that helpful besides.

In my opinion, both Second Wind and Indomitable should be buffed, but I'm specifically asking how SW can be buffed without going overboard.

[JoeJ]

I absolutely believe the Fighter is underpowered. The only thing they contribute is damage. Utility is minimal; even the Battlemaster subclass only brings a bit of battlefield control but nothing close to what a caster can do. Survivability is moderate, high HP and AC but the first can be rapidly whittled down and the second circumvented by attacking Ability Saves. Indomitable is your only recourse here, but it's a very limited resource and not all that helpful besides.

In my opinion, both Second Wind and Indomitable should be buffed, but I'm specifically asking how SW can be buffed without going overboard.

If you're concerned that the only thing fighters can contribute is damage, wouldn't it make more sense to buff their out of combat abilities instead?

[Crgaston]

You could add an extra d10 at levels where casters get more damage with their cantrips... 5, 11 & 17 iirc.

Or along the lines of what JoeJ suggested, perhaps let them exchange the ability for 2 additional skill proficiencies.

[ZenBear]

If you're concerned that the only thing fighters can contribute is damage, wouldn't it make more sense to buff their out of combat abilities instead?
Different issue. I'm trying to buff what they're supposed to be good at (dmg is good, survivability needs something). It's also in-combat utility that they lack. An fully optimized lvl 20 PAM/GWM Fighter can't do squat to a dragon on the wing, but a Wizard...

You could add an extra d10 at levels where casters get more damage with their cantrips... 5, 11 & 17 iirc.
That's not a bad idea. 4d10+20 at 20, max possible 60 HP. Considering with average HP and a 16 CON you have 184 you can heal up to ~1/3 your max is passable.

[MrStabby]

If you're concerned that the only thing fighters can contribute is damage, wouldn't it make more sense to buff their out of combat abilities instead?

This would seem to be the sensible option. skills, ritual casting or whatever.

[Slipperychicken]

I absolutely believe the Fighter is underpowered. The only thing they contribute is damage.

Fighters in my games have contributed quite a lot out of combat, using their skills, equipment, and smart play.

[ZenBear]

Fighters in my games have contributed quite a lot out of combat, using their skills, equipment, and smart play.

Because of smart play, not because they were Fighters.

[Crgaston]

Dang, I edited my suggestion and there were already replies to the original!

[CantigThimble]

One out of combat advantage Fighters have is lots of feats. Healer, Ritual Caster, Magic Initiate, Actor, Dungeon Delver, Skilled and Linguist can all add some interesting utility that most characters will never see because they need to spend ASIs on their 2-3 necessary stats while fighters only need to max Str/Dex AND get extra ASIs. Sure, some fighters will just spend those ASIs on combat feats or a little extra Con but that doesn't mean the class has no utility, just that those players choose not to use it. Just like a wizard who only learns combat spells.

[ZenBear]

One out of combat advantage Fighters have is lots of feats. Healer, Ritual Caster, Magic Initiate, Actor, Dungeon Delver, Skilled and Linguist can all add some interesting utility that most characters will never see because they need to spend ASIs on their 2-3 necessary stats while fighters only need to max Str/Dex AND get extra ASIs. Sure, some fighters will just spend those ASIs on combat feats or a little extra Con but that doesn't mean the class has no utility, just that those players choose not to use it. Just like a wizard who only learns combat spells.

Fair point. On that point though, Feats =/= spells in power. Being able to heal and rez with the Healer feat is nice, but can't compare to Mass Heal or True Resurrection, just to name one example.

Back on topic though, I'm not here to discuss how to make Fighters more utilitarian. I'm here to discuss how to make them more combat capable. Damage is only one side of the equation. Compared to Paladins, Fighters barely edge them out in long fights/over the course of many battles, but they are woefully underpowered when you take into consideration the burst potential of high level Smites (Action Surge gives them a run for their money, but you only get 2 per short rest at high levels), spell resistance from Aura of Protection/Aura of Warding, survivability from Lay on Hands and healing spells, etc. Paladins are half-casters, but they are also half-martial and the combination of the two outshines Fighters in the capacity they are supposed to shine.

[Slipperychicken]

Because of smart play, not because they were Fighters.

Despite a dearth of utility-focused class features, fighters' skills and background features allow them to be useful outside of combat. I recently played a fighter who used dex skills and thieves' tools to do most of what a Rogue might be expected to do, in addition to being good at forcing things open with a crowbar. Even when someone else could do the skill better, he could help and give advantage. I also played last weekend with a pair of players who were fighters, and used their heads to outperform my cleric in utility.


If you're not satisfied by that answer, or your party has enough faces or thieves to drown out the fighters' skill use, then I'd recommend buffing fighters' out-of-combat abilities. Maybe they could get NPC minions or something, like they used to back in the day.

[ZenBear]

Despite a dearth of utility-focused class features, fighters' skills and background features allow them to be useful outside of combat. I recently played a fighter who used dex skills and thieves' tools to do most of what a Rogue might be expected to do, in addition to being good at forcing things open with a crowbar. Even when someone else could do the skill better, he could help and give advantage. I also played last weekend with a pair of players who were fighters, and used their heads to outperform my cleric in utility.


If you're not satisfied by that answer, or your party has enough faces or thieves to drown out the fighters' skill use, then I'd recommend buffing fighters' out-of-combat abilities. Maybe they could get NPC minions or something, like they used to back in the day.

Again, this is not the point of the thread. I'm talking about buffing Second Wind, not buffing Fighter out-of-combat utility.

[pwykersotz]

In the interest of being helpful...

What about tacking on a Lesser Restoration at mid levels and a Greater Restoration at high levels? They'd still need a cleric for serious healing or to restore themselves when their ailment prevented their actions from being taken, but it gives them that 'keep going' power that Second Wind implies.

[R.Shackleford]

How could Second Wind be made to scale better at high levels? 1d10+20 isn't much HP at lvl 20.

Second Wind: 25% base HP

Indomitable: 1/short rest whenever you fail a save you may reroll as a constitution save. Eventually this becomes 2/short rest.

Ability to perform a basic maneuver (trip, push, grapple, climb onto a bigger creature, etc...) as a bonus action.

Action Surge is replaced with a sneak attack like progression. However it is called Martial Strike and is fluffed as Power Attack or a Sure Strike type ability. Usable per short rest.

[ZenBear]

In the interest of being helpful...

What about tacking on a Lesser Restoration at mid levels and a Greater Restoration at high levels? They'd still need a cleric for serious healing or to restore themselves when their ailment prevented their actions from being taken, but it gives them that 'keep going' power that Second Wind implies.

Hmm... that's cool. How would you word it? "Starting at X level, when you use Second Wind you gain the effects of a Lesser/Greater Restoration spell"? Or "...you remove one/all status effects currently afflicting you"?

[CantigThimble]

Action Surge is replaced with a sneak attack like progression. However it is called Martial Strike and is fluffed as Power Attack or a Sure Strike type ability. Usable per short rest.

Huh? What does this even mean? Action surge works nothing like sneak attack and sneak attack would be useless if it was usable per short rest.

[ZenBear]

*1*Second Wind: 25% base HP

*2*Indomitable: 1/short rest whenever you fail a save you may reroll as a constitution save. Eventually this becomes 2/short rest.

*3*Ability to perform a basic maneuver (trip, push, grapple, climb onto a bigger creature, etc...) as a bonus action.

*4*Action Surge is replaced with a sneak attack like progression. However it is called Martial Strike and is fluffed as Power Attack or a Sure Strike type ability. Usable per short rest.

1. I'm leery about asking players to do math, 5E is generally pretty sparse about it, but I might just use that.

2. People have suggested turning Indomitable into Legendary Resistance which I like. Monster ability as player ability. I suppose transferring it to CON, which pretty much every Fighter will take, is a good variation.

3. Where does this come into play? Does it take the place of something or is it just added on? Kinda steps on the BM schtick if every Fighter gets it.

4. Makes Fighter and Rogue too similar IMO. I like Action Surge as is.

[Ruslan]

How could Second Wind be made to scale better at high levels? 1d10+20 isn't much HP at lvl 20.
"Recover 5 hit points per Fighter level"

By the way, this is exactly in line with the Paladin's Lay Hands.

[ZenBear]

"Recover 5 hit points per Fighter level"

By the way, this is exactly in line with the Paladin's Lay Hands.

Less useful though. Paladin can repeatedly rez unconscious characters by healing 1HP at a time.

[R.Shackleford]

1. I'm leery about asking players to do math, 5E is generally pretty sparse about it, but I might just use that.

2. People have suggested turning Indomitable into Legendary Resistance which I like. Monster ability as player ability. I suppose transferring it to CON, which pretty much every Fighter will take, is a good variation.

3. Where does this come into play? Does it take the place of something or is it just added on? Kinda steps on the BM schtick if every Fighter gets it.

4. Makes Fighter and Rogue too similar IMO. I like Action Surge as is.

1: Half hp, then half that... You get 25%... If your players can't handle that then I'm not sure How to help you.

2: Fighter has to take Con saves as a prof and will typically have a +2 or more.

3: BM and Champion are so lacking that they should you can mix them and it will be fine. Let the player choose between extra crit or the damage progression and then give them the BA maneuver at level 2. Learn to use more maneuvers as you level up. Also make the maneuvers get better. So if you push at level 15 you won't be pushing just 5' back.

The champion and BM are so out of sync with the rest of that game...

4: They play no where near the same unless you make them play the same. Just because they both have a damaging progression feature doesn't mean anything. That's like saying that because the fighter and wizard both have levels and features that they are the same.

Saying that a power attack feature would make them be more like rogues is saying that all those fighters who took the power attack fear in earlier additions played like rogues... Not happening.

Action Surge is just way out of line for what the game gives players. It is a massively powerful feature that turns the fighter into a dip class (yet again...). There was a better break down of why Action Surge is bad for the game on another forum, if I run across it I'll post it here.

But do as you please, but if you want to actually fix the fighter you need to go well beyond second wind. You need to make the fighter first work like every other class instead of being it's own weird thing.

[pwykersotz]

Hmm... that's cool. How would you word it? "Starting at X level, when you use Second Wind you gain the effects of a Lesser/Greater Restoration spell"? Or "...you remove one/all status effects currently afflicting you"?

I would probably use the first wording for the sake of simplicity.

[Biggstick]

Second Wind is absolutely fine as is. It's a bonus action to regain hp (Usually over 1/10th of your hp) that refreshes on a short rest. If you're having problems with survivability, maybe you should take a look at your feat and ASI set-up and adjust accordingly.

[Slipperychicken]

I wouldn't want to make every fighter look up the spell. Instead, I'd just list the effects that could be removed in the ability itself, and put in some words about the fighter's determination allowing him to shrug off ailments.

[busterswd]

A Second Wind that emphasized subclass could be fun.


Champion: Next attack that hits uses double the damage dice (autocrit)

Battlemaster: Heal an ally and yourself. Overheal becomes Temp HP

EK: Add Strength modifier to your DC/Spell Attack until the end of your next turn.

[Malifice]

How could Second Wind be made to scale better at high levels? 1d10+20 isn't much HP at lvl 20.

You get 3-4 per day. So its around 100HP per day free healing on average at level 20. Compared to lay on hands, its about on par.

Why buff it?

Im going to assume its because you only get one encounter per day (the usual answer), your DM encourages nova strikes, and fighters, monks and warlocks need buffing.

In that case, I suggest allowing any 'recharges on a second wind' ability to be altered to have 3 x the number of uses, and refresh on a long rest.

So multiply Monk Ki by 3. Triple the warlocks spell slots. Triple action surge, second wind uses and sup dice. Just make them refresh on a long rest (and not a short one).

Done.

[wunderkid]

Also big big distinction here is lay on hands takes your much needed action, second wind uses your bonus so you can heal and keep on punching. Personally to me it doesn't need a buff at all. I personally highly disagree with fighters being underpowered, in combat they are utterly beastly, out of combat due to bounded accuracy they can turn their hand to any skill check and still have a good chance of success. The only thing casters have over them is IF they prepare the correct spell for a situation, and then burn out their long rest spell slots for utility which then makes their in combat worse because they have less slots, then and only then are they better for utility. And as someone mentioned you get a lot of ASIs to pick up feats and improve your utility without sacrificing any long rest requiring resources.

[R.Shackleford]

You get 3-4 per day. So its around 100HP per day free healing on average at level 20. Compared to lay on hands, its about on par.

Why buff it?

Im going to assume its because you only get one encounter per day (the usual answer), your DM encourages nova strikes, and fighters, monks and warlocks need buffing.

In that case, I suggest allowing any 'recharges on a second wind' ability to be altered to have 3 x the number of uses, and refresh on a long rest.

So multiply Monk Ki by 3. Triple the warlocks spell slots. Triple action surge, second wind uses and sup dice. Just make them refresh on a long rest (and not a short one).

Done.

The Fighter isn't about what *might* happen but is about what *is* happening.

The argument about how during a long day you *might* get 100 go out of it doesn't jive with the rest of the fighter.

Yeah you *might* get 100 HP out of it But you might also only get 6 HP. The feature needs to be good if it's used once or used multiple times. The only way this feature, as made right now, is any good is *if* you take X short rests and get y fights and have Z number of injuries.

The Paladin's lay on hands gives you a good one off use and a good multiple use with it. Almost all healing in the game is good for now and later. The Fighter's second wind is only good over a long haul.

The Fighter won't get to that point if their abilities don't help them in the immediate future. I've seen way to many fighters use second wind only to be out to 0 on the next round because they didn't heal enough.

[Slipperychicken]

The Fighter isn't about what *might* happen but is about what *is* happening.

The argument about how during a long day you *might* get 100 go out of it doesn't jive with the rest of the fighter.

Yeah you *might* get 100 HP out of it But you might also only get 6 HP. The feature needs to be good if it's used once or used multiple times. The only way this feature, as made right now, is any good is *if* you take X short rests and get y fights and have Z number of injuries.

The Paladin's lay on hands gives you a good one off use and a good multiple use with it. Almost all healing in the game is good for now and later. The Fighter's second wind is only good over a long haul.

The Fighter won't get to that point if their abilities don't help them in the immediate future. I've seen way to many fighters use second wind only to be out to 0 on the next round because they didn't heal enough.

Second wind is good immediately, though. In my experience it gives him about another round or two to keep fighting. And nlike lay on hands, it doesn't interrupt his attack routine by using an action, meaning a fighter makes better use of that time.

[R.Shackleford]

Second wind is good immediately, though. In my experience it gives him about another round or two to keep fighting. And nlike lay on hands, it doesn't interrupt his attack routine by using an action, meaning a fighter makes better use of that time.

I haven't even seen them get that much time out of it. Typically, from what I've seen, it goes something like...

Enemy: Hits fighter decent or hard.
Fighter: Attacks, Second Wind.
Enemy (or other enemy): Attacks decent or hard.
Fighter: 0 HP.

[wunderkid]

I haven't even seen them get that much time out of it. Typically, from what I've seen, it goes something like...

Enemy: Hits fighter decent or hard.
Fighter: Attacks, Second Wind.
Enemy (or other enemy): Attacks decent or hard.
Fighter: 0 HP.

Whereas typically what I've seen is the fighter getting enough hp to soak another attack.

In effect you're getting healing without sacrificing your turn or action. Which is quite a big deal, that's why the healing is less than those who have to completly lose a turn for healing. Buffing second wind suddenly makes those features pale in comparison. When as it stands they are pretty even.

If you want to buff it then make it take the action instead of bonus, bring its healing more in line with lay on hands.

[Finieous]

I agree with Malifice. Second Wind is great if you're following the 2-3 short rests guideline. If you're not, just give them three uses of Second Wind per long rest.

[Specter]

Add the CON modifier to it.

But even as is, it's decent. A 20th-level cleric could use Healing Word as a bonus action to heal 9d4+5, for a max of 41. The fighter's max would be 30. And fighters have no good use for their bonus action anyway.

[theMycon]

Second Wind: 25% base HP

Indomitable: 1/short rest whenever you fail a save you may reroll as a constitution save. Eventually this becomes 2/short rest.

Ability to perform a basic maneuver (trip, push, grapple, climb onto a bigger creature, etc...) as a bonus action.

Action Surge is replaced with a sneak attack like progression. However it is called Martial Strike and is fluffed as Power Attack or a Sure Strike type ability. Usable per short rest.

Did anybody else read this and think "Get your 4e out of my fighter"?

[SharkForce]

Did anybody else read this and think "Get your 4e out of my fighter"?

nope.

actually, fighter is one of the few areas i would like to see more of 4e in (not all of 4e... i could do without the ability to somehow taunt mindless automatons into attacking them because they're so good at stabbing things, and also without daily powers). but ultimately, 4e made a pretty good fighter class for those who like more complexity in their martials.

[Ashrym]

Did anybody else read this and think "Get your 4e out of my fighter"?

Not at all. A lot of people whom I know and played with enjoyed several things about 4e fighters and I can see some concepts carried over with modification.

I wasn't one who liked 4e fighters implementation but there were some good reasons for working on something more complex. I prefer more abstract tools for a fighter over fixed powers and 5e is my favourite version so far, but I wouldn't begrudge someone appreciating a past version more.

The edition is irrelevant. The impact rule changes have on the game play is more important. Given how much healing the d10 is worth on short rests and armor options and bonus ASI/feats I would say take the healer feat if a person is really looking for more healing from the character.

I don't see the need for more healing on a fighter, personally.

[R.Shackleford]

Not at all. A lot of people whom I know and played with enjoyed several things about 4e fighters and I can see some concepts carried over with modification.

I wasn't one who liked 4e fighters implementation but there were some good reasons for working on something more complex. I prefer more abstract tools for a fighter over fixed powers and 5e is my favourite version so far, but I wouldn't begrudge someone appreciating a past version more.

The edition is irrelevant. The impact rule changes have on the game play is more important. Given how much healing the d10 is worth on short rests and armor options and bonus ASI/feats I would say take the healer feat if a person is really looking for more healing from the character.

I don't see the need for more healing on a fighter, personally.

Actually the 4e Essentials Fighter and Rogue are almost identical to the 5e Fighter and Rogue.

Like, they pretty much copied and pasted the two. Its sad because those are the two worst from that edition.

Abstract or not, getting cool things shouldn't be withheld from specific classes.

[Finieous]

Abstract or not, getting cool things shouldn't be withheld from specific classes.

That certainly hasn't been my experience with the 5e fighter. From one-shots to a 1.5 year campaign, I haven't been in a game without at least one player having a great time with a fighter.

[R.Shackleford]

That certainly hasn't been my experience with the 5e fighter. From one-shots to a 1.5 year campaign, I haven't been in a game without at least one player having a great time with a fighter.

Straw man.

Didn't say you or anyone else can't have fun.

[LordFluffy]

Re: Buff - Upping the die like a cantrip sounds good to me.

Everyone else: Why are fighters supposed to be contributing anything other than fighting? If you want to diversify them, isn't that what Backgrounds and Feats are for? I mean, it's not like people watch a Jet Li movie and ask "Y'know, his character can punch and all, but why don't we ever see him crochet?"

[PoeticDwarf]

I absolutely believe the Fighter is underpowered. The only thing they contribute is damage. Utility is minimal; even the Battlemaster subclass only brings a bit of battlefield control but nothing close to what a caster can do. Survivability is moderate, high HP and AC but the first can be rapidly whittled down and the second circumvented by attacking Ability Saves. Indomitable is your only recourse here, but it's a very limited resource and not all that helpful besides.

In my opinion, both Second Wind and Indomitable should be buffed, but I'm specifically asking how SW can be buffed without going overboard.

Then the barbarian is even more underpowered...

Some classes are good at hitting stuff. If you buff these, buff all martials

But I think second wind could be cool with some scaling. Just say either 1d6+two times fighter level. 1d10 and every 4 levels after that (5, 9, 13, 17) an extra d10 to cap it at 5d10 or something totally different

[Finieous]

Straw man.

Didn't say you or anyone else can't have fun.

Straw man? WTF? I was simply commenting that, in my experience, people seem to think fighters get "cool things." Again, in my experience, it's been the single most popular class in the game. How is that a "straw man"? It's not an argument at all, straw man or otherwise. It's an empirical observation based on my own experience.

Good grief, some folks are touchy. If you don't think the fighter gets "cool things," give them cool things! How could I possibly object to that?

[Ruslan]

Abstract or not, getting cool things shouldn't be withheld from specific classes.I'm not sure which cool things are withheld from each class. If you refer to the Fighter or Rogue, they get 4th level spells, which is pretty cool. And the Battlemaster maneuvers and the Assassination ability are pretty cool. Sure, there's the Champion subclass, which doesn't really get anything cool, but that's not relevant, because this subclass was specifically made for people who value "simple" over "cool".

In summary, while not every subclass in D&D gets what most would define as "cool stuff", every class does.

[RickAllison]

Re: Buff - Upping the die like a cantrip sounds good to me.

Everyone else: Why are fighters supposed to be contributing anything other than fighting? If you want to diversify them, isn't that what Backgrounds and Feats are for? I mean, it's not like people watch a Jet Li movie and ask "Y'know, his character can punch and all, but why don't we ever see him crochet?"

How do you think they react so fast? They carefully crochet undergarments to permit maximum movement while minimizing chafing!

[R.Shackleford]

Straw man? WTF? I was simply commenting that, in my experience, people seem to think fighters get "cool things." Again, in my experience, it's been the single most popular class in the game. How is that a "straw man"? It's not an argument at all, straw man or otherwise. It's an empirical observation based on my own experience.

Good grief, some folks are touchy. If you don't think the fighter gets "cool things," give them cool things! How could I possibly object to that?

I said cool things were being withheld.

Your agument was about fun. Those are two different things. You aren't talking about what I'm talking about.

People had fun with 1e, 2e, 3e (3e monk), 4e, and 5e. I never said no one was having fun or that no one *couldn't* have fun. My comment wasn't about your or anyone else's fun.

Of you want to talk about fun we can. I think more people would have fun with the fighter if the fighter was given more cool things to work with. The you can have people who like a basic fighter and people who like a fighter who grows play at the same table without one or the other being actively punished.

There now instead of just making up arguments you can respond to that.

[Finieous]

There now instead of just making up arguments you can respond to that.

"Making up arguments." :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I already responded to "that." Add cool stuff!

[CantigThimble]

I said cool things were being withheld.

Your agument was about fun. Those are two different things. You aren't talking about what I'm talking about.

People had fun with 1e, 2e, 3e (3e monk), 4e, and 5e. I never said no one was having fun or that no one *couldn't* have fun. My comment wasn't about your or anyone else's fun.

Of you want to talk about fun we can. I think more people would have fun with the fighter if the fighter was given more cool things to work with. The you can have people who like a basic fighter and people who like a fighter who grows play at the same table without one or the other being actively punished.

There now instead of just making up arguments you can respond to that.

Your discussion is about 'cool things'. That's a term predicated upon people's subjective opinions of the features. If someone else thinks that extra attacks, bonus feats and indomitable are all 'cool' then you can't actually contradict them because 'cool' is subjective. Meaning Fineous's point is perfectly relevant here if that's how you choose to define your problem with the class.

[Vogonjeltz]

Different issue. I'm trying to buff what they're supposed to be good at (dmg is good, survivability needs something). It's also in-combat utility that they lack. An fully optimized lvl 20 PAM/GWM Fighter can't do squat to a dragon on the wing, but a Wizard...

It doesn't sound optimized if they're not even carrying a long bow.

If you want it to scale better, give it a larger number of hp from levels. Or give it an additional die (i.e. +1d10 at 10th and 20th levels).

Or allow the Fighter to use Hit Dice and add them to the roll. So it could be that they get to also draw on their Hit Dice reserves.

[SharkForce]

It doesn't sound optimized if they're not even carrying a long bow.

or at the very least some javelins. or even throw rocks. i hesitate to even call it optimization when the ability to make some form of ranged attack should really be something every single character would want.

i tend to agree that at the higher levels, a wizard can do far more than a fighter (not helped by fighter not gaining much between 11 and 20, with only level 17 being particularly noteworthy). but when it comes to killing things, i have to admit, 5e fighters are good at that at least, and actually do have at least one valuable role because of their class. the class doesn't do much of anything to make them stand out in other areas (they have skills, but so does everyone, and everyone having them is the opposite of standing out), but in combat, fighters perform well.

that said, i'd rather give fighters something in that 11-20 stretch that leaves them feeling like a fighter, solving things the way you'd expect a fighter to solve them, but still lets them stand out in some way and say "this is something that only a high level fighter can do". kinda like the rogue's ability to never roll low on proficient skills, except more fighter-y.

i don't feel like an improved second wind is the solution, generally speaking.

[Mjolnirbear]

I absolutely believe the Fighter is underpowered. The only thing they contribute is damage. Utility is minimal; even the Battlemaster subclass only brings a bit of battlefield control but nothing close to what a caster can do. Survivability is moderate, high HP and AC but the first can be rapidly whittled down and the second circumvented by attacking Ability Saves. Indomitable is your only recourse here, but it's a very limited resource and not all that helpful besides.

In my opinion, both Second Wind and Indomitable should be buffed, but I'm specifically asking how SW can be buffed without going overboard.

I disagree. A fighter offers far more than just damage.

A fighter can, more often than other classes, grapple, shove, or disarm an enemy. Except for martials, he can also do this all day long.

A fighter can be a wall like nothing other than other martials.

A fighter can get feats upon feats. Assuming 4 ASIs for stat bumps to 20, the fighter gets two more feats than other classes. They can choose power and power (gwm+pam) or power and control (pam+sent) or control and defense (sent+SM) or other combinations, and still have room for fun things like Mage Slayer or Savage Attacker or skilled or Keen Mind or Magic Initiate.

A fighter BM offers unparallelled tactical ability. A EK offers spells. A champion offers more combat ability.

They are not simply damage machines. That's simply one of the things they are best at. Compare to a wizard: versatility is his thing. He can control or damage or buff, but his damage is not likely to be as good, and his control resources can run out.

[MaxWilson]

I absolutely believe the Fighter is underpowered. The only thing they contribute is damage. Utility is minimal; even the Battlemaster subclass only brings a bit of battlefield control but nothing close to what a caster can do.

Somebody is not taking advantage of their Athletics and Extra Attacks.

[Once a Fool]

Actually the 4e Essentials Fighter and Rogue are almost identical to the 5e Fighter and Rogue.

Like, they pretty much copied and pasted the two. Its sad because those are the two worst from that edition.

Abstract or not, getting cool things shouldn't be withheld from specific classes.

As I disagree with pretty much all of the things you've said in this thread, I guess I have no reason to be surprised about this particular thing, but I'm calling it out anyway, because essentials-hate is so pervasive.

I may be anomalous, but the following things hold true for me:

1: I liked 4e, right from the start.

2: I thought the mechanical branching out that began with the PH3 and led to Essentials was a vast improvement over earlier 4e.

3: In fact, I wished Essentials had been the initial release, with the earlier version of 4e being an "advanced" edition.

4: While I like the 5e fighter and rogue (a lot), the cool (and elegant) mechanics they had in Essentials most definitely did not find their way into 5e.

Anyway, feel free to disagree, but don't waste your time looking for an argument from me. I had one thing to say, I've said it, and I'm done. I'm totally cool if you share neither my preferences, nor perspective.