Versatile Spellcaster + Runestaff = Early Access to high level spells?

[gogogome]

I was browsing some threads and some topics mentioned this combo. I have a player doing this, and I thought you could do it but now I'm not so sure anymore. Can you or can you not use versatile spell to cast higher level spells through runestaff?

After some rule digging, I found that runestaves require the user to expend a spell slot of equal or higher level, and versatile spellcaster lets you cast a spell you know by using 2 spell slots 1 level lower than it. Runestaves don't add to spell knowns, and versatile spellcaster doesn't add higher level spell slots, so it seems to me the answer is a no.

Am I correct?

[Troacctid]

You are correct.

[gogogome]

You are correct.

Alright thanks. Time to break a heart...

[MisterKaws]

Sorry to break your heart, but:


Spells per Day: How many spells of each spell level the character
can cast each day. If the entry is “—” for a given level of spells, the
character may not cast any spells of that level.

No exceptions given. This one quote also stops any Sanctum Spell shenanigans, since the PrC requirements are referencing this. Note that specific trumps general, so if some feature specifically mentions you being unable to overcome this rule(Precocious Apprentice does, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't), you may not, in any case, cast a spell that's out of your class's normal limits.

[magicalmagicman]

Sorry to break your heart, but:



No exceptions given. This one quote also stops any Sanctum Spell shenanigans, since the PrC requirements are referencing this. Note that specific trumps general, so if some feature specifically mentions you being unable to overcome this rule(Precocious Apprentice does, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't), you may not, in any case, cast a spell that's out of your class's normal limits.

Sorry to hijack your thread gogogome, but this is too important for me.

Versatile spell says you can cast a spell you know by spending 2 spell slots 1 level lower. So if a level 1 sorcerer for some unknown miraculous reason know a level 2 spell, he can cast it with versatile spellcaster at level 1. Specific trumps general, and this feat is more specific than that rule.

Now heighten spell technically lets a sorcerer know spells that are level 1-9 the moment he gets that feat. Reason? If someone makes a heightened orb of fire scroll, that scroll contains a level 9 spell called heightened orb of fire, so technically this sorcerer knows level 9 spells, but can't cast them because of lack of spell slots, and unlike other metamagic scrolls, heighten spell actually raises the spell level. Therefore a level 1 sorcerer with versatile spell and heighten spell can cast heightened level 1 spells as level 2 spells at level 1 because he knows a heightened spell of that level.

If you disagree, please speak your mind! This is for early entry fiery burst, and it needs to be airtight, and you seemed to have found another hole, and I'm gonna try my best to plug it up!

[gogogome]

Sorry to break your heart, but:



No exceptions given. This one quote also stops any Sanctum Spell shenanigans, since the PrC requirements are referencing this. Note that specific trumps general, so if some feature specifically mentions you being unable to overcome this rule(Precocious Apprentice does, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't), you may not, in any case, cast a spell that's out of your class's normal limits.

Are you arguing that runestaff does grant early access with versatile spell, or are you arguing that it doesn't? I'm a little confused. I am going to go break my player's heart because he designed his character around this, is what I meant by breaking a heart.

[Gildedragon]

Sorry to hijack your thread gogogome, but this is too important for me.

Versatile spell says you can cast a spell you know by spending 2 spell slots 1 level lower. So if a level 1 sorcerer for some unknown miraculous reason know a level 2 spell, he can cast it with versatile spellcaster at level 1. Specific trumps general, and this feat is more specific than that rule.

Now heighten spell technically lets a sorcerer know spells that are level 1-9 the moment he gets that feat. Reason? If someone makes a heightened orb of fire scroll, that scroll contains a level 9 spell called heightened orb of fire, so technically this sorcerer knows level 9 spells, but can't cast them because of lack of spell slots, and unlike other metamagic scrolls, heighten spell actually raises the spell level. Therefore a level 1 sorcerer with versatile spell and heighten spell can cast heightened level 1 spells as level 2 spells at level 1 because he knows a heightened spell of that level.

If you disagree, please speak your mind! This is for early entry fiery burst, and it needs to be airtight, and you seemed to have found another hole, and I'm gonna try my best to plug it up!

To use a runestaff spell one needs to use up a spell slot (or a prepared spell). Versatile spellcaster doesn't give a spell slot, just the capacity to cast a spell known.

The owner of the runestaff doesn't know the spell; just as one does not know the spells on a staff, or a wand. This is made more evident that each spell on the runestaff is useable 3/day, and the spell is cast from the runestaff


Are you arguing that runestaff does grant early access with versatile spell, or are you arguing that it doesn't? I'm a little confused. I am going to go break my player's heart because he designed his character around this, is what I meant by breaking a heart.
Give the player a knowstone then. They are dragon magazine but that's not a bad thing.

[MisterKaws]

Are you arguing that runestaff does grant early access with versatile spell, or are you arguing that it doesn't? I'm a little confused. I am going to go break my player's heart because he designed his character around this, is what I meant by breaking a heart.

Oh, I thought you were the player trying to use imbalanced cheap techniques. I was trying to help you break his heart.

First things first: there's a level restriction on spells for a reason, and Versatile Spellcaster is not meant to break this restriction. Also, Versatile Spellcaster does not specify that you can go over the normal limitations on level, so you can't.

[weckar]

Wait... Did you just kill all and any Versatile Spellcaster fixed-list caster shenanigans? Dang.

[Troacctid]

Wait... Did you just kill all and any Versatile Spellcaster fixed-list caster shenanigans? Dang.

No, those shenanigans were dead already, for a different reason.


When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list.

You don't learn new spells as a fixed-list caster until you gain access to spells of that level.

[Cruiser1]

Give the player a knowstone then. They are dragon magazine but that's not a bad thing.
Or a Drake-Helm with a Dragonshard in it (Eb:ExH), if Dragon material isn't allowed and you want something from a 3.5 book.