Melee v.s. Flying

[gogogome]

My current party all has access to fly. They fly up into the air and shoot everyone from below, targetting archers and spellcasters first.

Once they all die though, what should I do with the melee creatures? Should the melee creatures just stand around and die? Should they retreat?

Retreat sounds like a good option, but then afaik, you only get XP from them once, so if they come back with more archers, the party won't get any more XP for making them run away again.

It's a pain to keep track of all that so should I just make them throw weapons into the air, pick them back up, and repeat until they die? Or when they comeback, equip them with ranged weapons?

[Sayt]

Tweak your melee monsters. Given them a brace of javelins each and swap some of the chaff feats (save boosters, weapon focus, etc) for power throw and brutal throw from ph2 (iirc), abd quickdraw.

[gogogome]

Tweak your melee monsters. Given them a brace of javelins each and swap some of the chaff feats (save boosters, weapon focus, etc) for power throw and brutal throw from ph2 (iirc), abd quickdraw.

I'm against changing all monsters in a campaign to adapt and counter the player's strategies. What they do and what the players do should be completely separate and independent until they make contact.

[Alex12]

I'm against changing all monsters in a campaign to adapt and counter the player's strategies. What they do and what the players do should be completely separate and independent until they make contact.

This is true to a degree, but that doesn't mean that you can't change the monsters and such. After all, presumably your PCs are not the only people with magical means of flight in the world- it's probably one of the more common things for people of the appropriate level/CR to have on the basis that people who don't have it die to those who do. If the monsters weren't designed with any ranged capability in a setting where the foes they can reasonably expect to be fighting can reasonably be expected to be able to fly, then that is a failure of encounter design. Thus foes should have their own means of flying or otherwise closing the gap, or some kind of ranged option, or some way to neutralize the advantages of flying (a burrow speed, perhaps?). We're not talking some obscure movement type, here, we're talking flying, the second-most common PC movement mode in D&D, after walking.
Furthermore, PCs are not generally anonymous. Just because the foes haven't personally met the PCs doesn't mean they haven't heard of them, and adjusted accordingly.

Also, if the foes retreat and the PCs don't bother to follow them and kill them all, then the PCs get XP. But it would be eminently reasonable for those foes to reequip, prepare, and come back with stuff that can handle flying enemies. At that point, it's a different encounter, and so the PCs would get XP for winning again.

Note: I am assuming your PCs have level-appropriate flight options. If the PCs are all level 1 Wyvarans and Strixes, then yes, let them be the flying terrors for a bit- they'll pretty quickly reach the point where flight is either not really useful in fights (in dungeons and caves and suchlike) or everyone can fly or handle fliers to some degree.

[eggynack]

What were the melee folks even doing before their allies died? Seems to me that any logic that'd force a retreat would force one earlier, on immediate enemy contact. Even if the enemy force has typically melee folks, said folks shouldn't necessarily engage. Maybe have them swap weapons way earlier, on first party sighting, such that they may have some impact. If they can't attack at range at all.l, they could still be doing stuff like getting renforcements, or getting to a choke point where flight is impossible, or setting traps.

[LTwerewolf]

Few things: Line of sight is important. A bunch of melee types have access to spells or UMD and can break your party's line of sight to their targets, forcing them to either engage or lose their targets.

Also remember jumping is a thing. I once volleyball spiked a wizard into the dirt with a tarrasque because they underestimated its jumping ability. Many large monsters can do that without any sort of magic aiding them. Add in very basic magic items that aid in that (or items that straight up grant limited flying) to remove their height advantage.


Barring that, anything that has any intelligence at all isn't going to just sit there and let them kill them. They're going to leave. Treat your enemies like they're actual beings that have self preservation at the forefront of their mind. Even zealots that would absolutely die for what they believe in wouldn't sit in a shooting gallery as a target.

[gogogome]

What were the melee folks even doing before their allies died? Seems to me that any logic that'd force a retreat would force one earlier, on immediate enemy contact. Even if the enemy force has typically melee folks, said folks shouldn't necessarily engage. Maybe have them swap weapons way earlier, on first party sighting, such that they may have some impact. If they can't attack at range at all.l, they could still be doing stuff like getting renforcements, or getting to a choke point where flight is impossible, or setting traps.

Players are grounded at the start of the fight. They start casting their fly spells or wand of flying after combat starts. Melee might stick around just to yell at their archers to shoot them down, while readying their weapons in case one falls down for some reason.

Ok, so it seems like people are advising that the melee retreat, get ranged equipment, and fight, and the new range-capable melee grant more xp, and everyone in the dungeon/cave the melee creatures could contact start contacting others to get ranged.

[mauk2]

Once they all die though, what should I do with the melee creatures?

Monsters are not dumb. They may not be geniuses, but they're not dumb.

Ballistas are a good thing. Once monsters start to realize they're getting wiped out by a bunch of floating murder hobos, they'll start getting nasty ranged things to deal with it. If that fails, they can cut a deal with a dragon, summon up some air elementals, and if all else fails, move into a nice snug cave system. When the ceiling is ten feet high, flight loses a lot of that cachet.

Playing monsters as dumb bags of hitpoints is bad.

[fishyfishyfishy]

You absolutely need to account for flight at higher levels of d&d. Any enemies who do not prepare for that deserve to fail. They will always need to have some method of combating flight. Whether that is Downdraft, bows and arrows, tactical retreat to fortified buildings or other cover is entirely up to you as DM.

[LTwerewolf]

They shouldn't give more xp. Before, they weren't a challenge, so they shouldn't have been granting xp before. Just because a thing dies doesn't mean it grants xp.

[DarkSoul]

You could always have them packing tower shields and go full defensive behind them, giving their own ranged fighters some total cover (can't be attacked) to hide behind, or improved when casting/firing (+8 AC, +4 to reflex saves, and improved evasion, against effects originating between your cover and your opponent.

If encounters like this are against members of the same organization on multiple occasions, let them learn from their encounters. The casters stay behind the tower shields, peeking out (improved cover) and readying dispel magic (or their own fly spell) to counter anyone casting fly on their own, and targeted dispelling anyone using a wand.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Players are grounded at the start of the fight. They start casting their fly spells or wand of flying after combat starts. Melee might stick around just to yell at their archers to shoot them down, while readying their weapons in case one falls down for some reason.

Ok, so it seems like people are advising that the melee retreat, get ranged equipment, and fight, and the new range-capable melee grant more xp, and everyone in the dungeon/cave the melee creatures could contact start contacting others to get ranged.

Wow. If that strategy is working for the party, they are either seriously lucky or someone is doing something wrong. "Let's give the bad guys all one round of actions before we do anything that hurts them. It'll be fine. As soon as we're all flying, we'll be invulnerable!"

Here are a few ideas:

1. Have the melee monsters all charge the guy who lost initiative. Someone in the group will roll poorly and go late in the round sooner or later. Congratulations. You can try to cast fly on the defensive and then fly away from a bunch of guys who will take AoOs on you as you move out of your range. In pathfinder, each one that hits...forces you to make a fly check. Hope you have good fly skill, good AC, and a bunch of hit points. In 3.5, they just trip you with the AoO and you fall to the ground. Game over, do not pass go, make a new character. Or you could have some of them grapple whatever unlucky sucker lost initiative. No casting fly or flying anywhere until he breaks the grapple.

1.5 Does that feel like you're picking on the unlucky guy? Get over it. If the PCs don't want to be focus fired, they need to give the monsters other targets. If the players are going to go for "we're all flying, we win, nah nah nah tactics, they can't complain if the monsters beat whoever they can get their hands on into a pulp so bloody that there's not enough body left for raise dead.

2. Have the melee monsters ready actions to charge a PC as soon as they are grounded... and have a spellcaster dispel the fly. There are enemy spellcasters, right? The guy who gets dispelled is going to be a one-man punching bag. In 3.5, you can go for an area dispel and it will probably get at least one of the PCs. (Apparently some of the PCs are using wands for flight--low caster level=easy to dispel).

2.5 Earthbind (spell compendium) is a good alternative spell to dispel magic (and is on the druid list so if there's a bad guy druid in the dungeon, he can just prep it after hearing of the party using this strategy.

3. Assuming the party is casting fly then flying up for their first round, they won't be able to get that high (vertical movement is double cost and in Pathfinder, characters need a fly check to exceed 45 degree ascent, so characters won't be able to get more than 15 feet off the ground in round 1--less if their movement is hampered by encumbrance or heavy armor). That gives them a round of vulnerability to reach weapons and short range weaponry.

3.5 Good options to hurt them in that round of short range: tanglefoot bags: reduce movement speed and dexterity which hurts fly skill (Pathfinder). Nets: Entangle the PC and prevent them from moving out of range without a strength check. Grapple from a large monster with reach (and a bow or wand in hand=no AoO).

4. Options if the PCs plan actually works and they all get aloft.
A. Every intelligent opponent should have a backup weapon as well as a primary ranged and primary melee weapon. Javalins are cheap. All the orcs should have them. Longbows are effective, shortbows are effective. There's no reason for them to not have anything to shoot. Heck, clubs are free, readily available, and have range--short range, but still range.
B. Obscuring mist is a low level spell tailor made for this kind of situation and is a very cheap scroll that's on nearly every spell list. If your spellcasters don't have a scroll of obscuring mist, there's something wrong with them. Fix it.
C. Tower shields have been mentioned. They're a pretty good option.
D. Retreating into a building/dungeon room/whatever and waiting for the PCs' spells to wear off is a perfectly good strategy.
E. A lot of effective summoned creatures have flight--eagles, air elementals, fiendish dire bats, etc. If a spellcaster can summon, those give a good option to use against the PCs.
F. If a PC does fall unconscious, he'll float to the ground. Have the melee monsters coup de grace him (or if they have to move, just move and attack the unconscious body). It's not like they have anything better to do and the other PCs can't even take an AoO without moving down into range themselves.

Between building monsters with ranged weapons, killing whatever unlucky slob loses the initiative carousel and is abandoned by all his "friends", dispelling their fly spells and killing the unlucky sucker who is grounded, and withdrawing when there's no one to kill, the strategy should not be auto-win all the time against everything.

Pathfinder references: Fly skill
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement
3.5 references:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#tacticalAerialMovement

[Sayt]

I'm against changing all monsters in a campaign to adapt and counter the player's strategies. What they do and what the players do should be completely separate and independent until they make contact.

To a certain extent, you're right. You shouldn't modify your encounters to hard counter your parties tactics in an absolute manner. Just because you have an archer in the party doesn't mean every wizard, sorcerer and Archivist should start the encounter with Wind-wall.

But you should modify encounters to make them interesting and challenging. You need to strike a balance between boringly easy and frustratingly difficult.

[Psyren]

My current party all has access to fly. They fly up into the air and shoot everyone from below, targetting archers and spellcasters first.

Once they all die though, what should I do with the melee creatures? Should the melee creatures just stand around and die? Should they retreat?

Retreat sounds like a good option, but then afaik, you only get XP from them once, so if they come back with more archers, the party won't get any more XP for making them run away again.

It's a pain to keep track of all that so should I just make them throw weapons into the air, pick them back up, and repeat until they die? Or when they comeback, equip them with ranged weapons?

1) If the players flying is trivializing your encounters, stop making all your encounters take place in wide open featureless fields. Mix things up; have some fights happen in caves/canyons/forests; places where either the players can't fly, places where they can but the enemies and objectives are more difficult to hit from the air than on the ground, or even places where the players can fly but non-flying monsters can still reach them (e.g. treetop battle in a massive forest.) And of course, don't be afraid to use flying melee monsters, flying-mount-using melee humanoids, and spellcasters that can buff their allies with flight or summon flying steeds for them against your players too. That Drow raiding party will be a lot more memorable if they show up on Giant Wasps and fly in formation.

2) Monsters that retreat are still a challenge that was overcome and therefore still grant XP. As others have said, if they return with backup, that's a brand new encounter.

[Inevitability]

They shouldn't give more xp. Before, they weren't a challenge, so they shouldn't have been granting xp before. Just because a thing dies doesn't mean it grants xp.

This.

Seriously, the only thing the 'if it bleeds, you can get XP for it' mentality does is that it teaches your PC's that every kill is a small boost in power. Before you know it, they'll start attacking settlements and lifestock for the XP they grant.

XP is awarded for overcoming challenges of any kind. Something that isn't a challenge shouldn't grant XP.

[weckar]

Except the challenge (melee attackers) was overcome by their abilities (in this case: flying). Why exactly is this any different than any encounter that would grant xp?

[LTwerewolf]

Except the challenge (melee attackers) was overcome by their abilities (in this case: flying). Why exactly is this any different than any encounter that would grant xp?

Cows and settlements are overcome by fire. Why is that any different from any other encounter? The difference? There's no way for them to fight back effectively after using a pretty low level effect.

[Elder_Basilisk]

2) Monsters that retreat are still a challenge that was overcome and therefore still grant XP. As others have said, if they return with backup, that's a brand new encounter.

Only sometimes. It depends on what the players' goal was, what the monsters' goal was, and why the monsters retreated and what the players/monsters were able to accomplish because of/in spite of the retreat.

If the monsters are an orc raiding party out to sack the settlement of Plotville and they retreat from the PCs, the PCs defeated the monsters by preventing them from sacking Plotville. XP granted.

On the other hand, if the orcs are out hunting around their base camp, they see the PCs, the PCs cast fly, the monsters go back into the cave (to wait for the PCs to follow or the fly spell to expire) and the PCs stay outside the cave (waiting for the orcs to get a case of terminal stupidity and come into the open), I'd call that a draw. No XP.

If the orcs are raiding Plotville and the PCs cast fly so the orcs all pull out their tower shields and head into buildings one at a time, rape, pillage, and loot, then set them on fire and go on to the next building, then retreat to their base camp without killing the PCs, the orcs were the ones who won, despite being the ones who retreated. They looted the town and the PCs were helpless/unwilling to take the necessary risks to stop them. The orcs get XP and next time the PCs encounter them, they will be higher level and will have some things to do to flying foes.

[Segev]

Yes. If the monsters aren't suicidally stupid, if they can't fight back, they should seek shelter/retreat.

If this is impeding the challenge in your game, then consider where you're allowing these encounters to occur. Think of ways the monsters can use terrain to their advantage. Caves, indoors, and underground and the like can create a flight ceiling as low as you'd like, which means flight isn't keeping people out of absolute reach (though speed might let them kite). Forests either keep the flight ceiling below the bottom of the canopy (which can be right near the ground in particularly tangled ones), or create all sorts of concealment for those within the canopy or on the opposite side of it from the PCs. If the PCs fly over it, they can't see the ground and those on it, nor even those climbing amongst the trees. If they fly under it, they're in reach.

In general, just vary your terrain, have enemies use it intelligently, and if there's no good reason for a particular threat to be a threat, let the PCs ignore it or deal with it how they will.