Polymorph v.s. Black Tentacles

[magicalmagicman]

Which would you recommend for a level 8 sorcerer?

Until level 7 the sorcerer has been:
1. Flying sky high into the air.
2. Throwing Stinking Cloud and Glitterdust at archers and spellcasters.
3. Fiery Bursting everything to death from the sky/

Black Tentacles are more effective than stinking cloud at disabling spellcasters. Also, when combo'd with stinking cloud, it keeps everyone in the cloud longer, practically neutralizing an entire mob for a very long duration. (Going by the faq rules so Black Tentacles only grapple enemies that enter the area, not every creature once per round.)

Polymorph on the other hand, has access to 8 headed hydras, allowing me to melee fire resistant enemies, and its fast healing will not only keep me alive, but also fully heal me every day. Also, there's nothing stopping me from flying and bashing everything to death while in the air, and the hydra form also gives me a really nice natural armor bonus which stacks with mage armor and shield.

On the other hand, I haven't done the exact calculations, but even if my sorcerer would turn into a 8 headed hydra, her attack bonus would be horrendous. It's like 4(BAB) + 4(STR) -2 (size) = +6. Also I believe I can't cast spells while in hydra form due to lack of hands to make somatic gestures, and I need the druid feat natural spell to use heads as somatic gestures.

On the other, other hand, I could always polymorph myself into something with hands and fast healing or regeneration and be unkillable while in the sky.

Also consider party mates, which spell is better when helping allies?

Which one should I get?

[Crake]

Worth noting that you don't get a hydra's fast healing from polymorph, otherwise I would say that's an instant win opportunity. But I'd probably still say polymorph anyway, for it's sheer versatility. Sure black tentacles can hold people down, and combos pretty well with stinking cloud, but honstly, you could just pick up solid fog if you wanted to hold people down. Polymorph on the other hand gives you so much more than just hydras. You can turn into practically whatever the situation calls for, if you DM allows it that is. So I suppose the question becomes, what would your DM allow you to turn into? Would you have free reign of any creature you can find in any book? Or are you limited to creatures you have come across before?

Evards is good and all, but it's pretty much limited to being a combat spell, polymorph on the other hand gives you so much more that you can do at any point in time.

Edit: Also the feat you would need to be able to cast in a non-standard form is called surrogate spellcasting from savage species, natural spell is limited to wildshapers.

[RoboEmperor]

Are you seriously kidding me?

One spell is a glorified entangle. The other spell has been deemed too OP, too TO, and widely acknowledged as a game ruiner.

[magicalmagicman]

Worth noting that you don't get a hydra's fast healing from polymorph, otherwise I would say that's an instant win opportunity. But I'd probably still say polymorph anyway, for it's sheer versatility. Sure black tentacles can hold people down, and combos pretty well with stinking cloud, but honstly, you could just pick up solid fog if you wanted to hold people down. Polymorph on the other hand gives you so much more than just hydras. You can turn into practically whatever the situation calls for, if you DM allows it that is. So I suppose the question becomes, what would your DM allow you to turn into? Would you have free reign of any creature you can find in any book? Or are you limited to creatures you have come across before?

Evards is good and all, but it's pretty much limited to being a combat spell, polymorph on the other hand gives you so much more that you can do at any point in time.

Edit: Also the feat you would need to be able to cast in a non-standard form is called surrogate spellcasting from savage species, natural spell is limited to wildshapers.

We're limited to 10+hd knowledge dc. If we don't know it, we can't turn into it, otherwise, yes we can.

Just to be clear, my new form's hd doesn't mean jack right? My hitpoints stay the same right? I get bonus hitpoints from my constitution increase, and I heal 1 night's rest worth of hitpoints, but that's it right?

So how would polymorph help me in combat more than Evard's? I already have alter self so I already have out of combat/utility uses of polymorph.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sorcerers suck at Knowledge skills unless you're optimizing for them via PrCs and whatnot, so only being able to get forms through Knowledge checks is seriously going to limit what you can do. Can you do research in your spare time? Maybe get some skill-boosting spells and items and grab new forms that way? Start spending time in zoos and polymorph is a clear winner, here.

[magicalmagicman]

Sorcerers suck at Knowledge skills unless you're optimizing for them via PrCs and whatnot, so only being able to get forms through Knowledge checks is seriously going to limit what you can do. Can you do research in your spare time? Maybe get some skill-boosting spells and items and grab new forms that way? Start spending time in zoos and polymorph is a clear winner, here.

Knowledge arcane gives magical beasts, which is good enough in my opinion.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Knowledge arcane gives magical beasts, which is good enough in my opinion.Can I assume that, given your other threads lately, your DM does not appreciate proper optimization? Because it's entirely possible to reset your Int to a base of 30 via a pair of scrolls of polymorph any object to turn yourself into a sarrukh, do a quick retrain via negative levels and a thought bottle or greater restoration, get all Knowledge skills as class skills through Educated or a similar feat, and invest all of those extra skill points in all of the Knowledges involved in ID'ing creatures.

[magicalmagicman]

Can I assume that, given your other threads lately, your DM does not appreciate proper optimization? Because it's entirely possible to reset your Int to a base of 30 via a pair of scrolls of polymorph any object to turn yourself into a sarrukh, do a quick retrain via negative levels and a thought bottle or greater restoration, get all Knowledge skills as class skills through Educated or a similar feat, and invest all of those extra skill points in all of the Knowledges involved in ID'ing creatures.

Depends on the optimization. If it's a character build that only uses the source books he allows then yes he allows it. If it is retraining related then no. What you just said is an absolute no XD. He does allow thought bottles though but only in metropolises and they're mainly used to save crafting xp, and that is pretty high optimization imo.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Depends on the optimization. If it's a character build that only uses the source books he allows then yes he allows it. If it is retraining related then no. What you just said is an absolute no XD. He does allow thought bottles though but only in metropolises and they're mainly used to save crafting xp, and that is pretty high optimization imo.It's not actually retraining as the rules as they stand define it. It's just knocking your levels down to very little then restoring them and rechoosing your level-ups when you do.

[Âmesang]

Knowledge arcane gives magical beasts, which is good enough in my opinion.
You also get constructs and dragons; with a good Bluff you could trick the common folk into thinking you're a gold or silver dragon (since they can naturally take animal/humanoid form). Learn cone of cold/Keraptis' flamecone to simulate a breath weapon (or take Savage Species' Assume Supernatural Ability).

This is also why my sorceress' quasit familiar is naturally trained in Knowledge (the planes) …and she has membership to Cauldron's Bluecrater Academy (+6 to Knowledge checks; see The Shackled City Adventure Path).

[Segev]

You're a sorcerer. Take polymorh. The high versatility for that spell known is just not to be ignored. If you're worried about the limits to your knowledge, start hunting and studying monsters.

[Gnaeus]

Alternatively, take summon monster Spells, which are also known for their fantastic versatility, which also can play important crowd control roles, and which you can later use to justify polymorphing into a lot of different forms.