If you become unconscious while under the fly spell, do you stay floating or descend?

[gogogome]

I think you stay floating but I want to be absolutely sure.

[Temotei]

There's an argument to be made for falling because of the little "only as much concentration as walking" part. Most unconscious people can't walk.

[Alex12]

I'd go with the Fly spell being overengineered for safety and treating it akin to when the spell ends. You start drifting down for a few rounds before falling. Only difference is that if you wake up before then, you can start flying again just fine as long as the spell didn't run out.

[gogogome]

There's an argument to be made for falling because of the little "only as much concentration as walking" part. Most unconscious people can't walk.

Once you stop walking you stay still though, so an argument can be made that without concentration, you just stay still.

[fishyfishyfishy]

There's an argument to be made for falling because of the little "only as much concentration as walking" part. Most unconscious people can't walk.

Sleepwalking is a thing. Additionally the spell Fly grants good maneuverability, which allows you to hover without needing to maintain a minimum forward movement speed. I'd say a character under the influence of a Fly spell that went unconscious would remain aloft for the duration of the spell, and drift down harmlessly to the ground when the duration expires.

[Temotei]

Sleepwalking is a thing.

I did say most.


Additionally the spell Fly grants good maneuverability, which allows you to hover without needing to maintain a minimum forward movement speed. I'd say a character under the influence of a Fly spell that went unconscious would remain aloft for the duration of the spell, and drift down harmlessly to the ground when the duration expires.

This is a good point, though, and seems like a good ruling to me.

[Alex12]

Sleepwalking is a thing. Additionally the spell Fly grants good maneuverability, which allows you to hover without needing to maintain a minimum forward movement speed. I'd say a character under the influence of a Fly spell that went unconscious would remain aloft for the duration of the spell, and drift down harmlessly to the ground when the duration expires.

Note that this logic does not apply in Pathfinder, where hovering requires a DC 15 Fly check.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Note that this logic does not apply in Pathfinder, where hovering requires a DC 15 Fly check.

Edition was not specified so this is a valid point. You probably cannot make Fly checks while unconscious.

[Tiri]

Edit: Pay no attention to this

[Morcleon]

Average, not good.

Both 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) and PF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fly) have it as good maneuverability.

[Duke of Urrel]

I'd go with the Fly spell being overengineered for safety and treating it akin to when the spell ends. You start drifting down for a few rounds before falling. Only difference is that if you wake up before then, you can start flying again just fine as long as the spell didn't run out.

I agree with this, but I would add that the air has no brakes. Even though Good maneuverability enables you to hover or to change direction in midair, I believe you must be conscious to perform either maneuver. Therefore, if you're flying with the Fly spell and you suddenly become unconscious, I believe you don't just stop in midair and float straight down to the ground; instead, you continue in the same direction you were going before you lost consciousness, but at the same time, you slowly lose altitude, as the Fly spell indicates. You might easily bump hard into a wall, a tree, or an enemy before you land gently on the ground.

[Draco_Lord]

I agree with this, but I would add that the air has no brakes. Even though Good maneuverability enables you to hover or to change direction in midair, I believe you must be conscious to perform either maneuver. Therefore, if you're flying with the Fly spell and you suddenly become unconscious, I believe you don't just stop in midair and float straight down to the ground; instead, you continue in the same direction you were going before you lost consciousness, but at the same time, you slowly lose altitude, as the Fly spell indicates. You might easily bump hard into a wall, a tree, or an enemy before you land gently on the ground.

That isn't strictly true. Air Resistance is a thing. If they are feet away from a wall, sure they'd hit something. But if they are miles in the air and flying at full speed they would slow down over time and not just crash into the first thing that they meet.

[Duke of Urrel]

That isn't strictly true. Air Resistance is a thing. If they are feet away from a wall, sure they'd hit something. But if they are miles in the air and flying at full speed they would slow down over time and not just crash into the first thing that they meet.

Agreed. Air resistance is a thing.

On the other hand, air resistance isn't enough to stop traffic accidents. The reason midair collisions are rare is because there are usually so few solid things up in the air to collide against.

The rule that you continue to drift in the same direction after you go unconscious while using the Fly spell to fly can just as easily benefit you as hurt you. For example, if your original purpose was to fly across a river, you can be happy that you continue in a forward direction through the air after you lose consciousness. This way, you end up on the far bank rather than in the river.

[martixy]

Well... I see absolutely no argument against Newton.

Since it isn't explicitly covered by any rule, I'd say you continue as you were, speed decaying by 5 ft./round, to a minimum of 5 ft. In air at least.

[ComaVision]

As far as I'm aware, momentum isn't a thing in D&D anywhere, so I wouldn't put it in for Fly.

[SethoMarkus]

As far as I'm aware, momentum isn't a thing in D&D anywhere, so I wouldn't put it in for Fly.

I'd also point out Fly is a spell that causes magical flight, so real life rules kind of go out the window there. Though, I find the idea of an unconscious sorcerer swiftly drifting forward and slowly drifting down hilarious and an amazing houserule.

[Gildedragon]

I agree with this, but I would add that the air has no brakes. Even though Good maneuverability enables you to hover or to change direction in midair, I believe you must be conscious to perform either maneuver. Therefore, if you're flying with the Fly spell and you suddenly become unconscious, I believe you don't just stop in midair and float straight down to the ground; instead, you continue in the same direction you were going before you lost consciousness, but at the same time, you slowly lose altitude, as the Fly spell indicates. You might easily bump hard into a wall, a tree, or an enemy before you land gently on the ground.

If you kept moving you'd be taking an action while you explicitly can't take actions. Otherwise while awake one could perform a full round action while flying and still move.

[Duke of Urrel]

If you kept moving you'd be taking an action while you explicitly can't take actions. Otherwise while awake one could perform a full round action while flying and still move.

When you're unconscious, you stop taking actions, but you don't stop taking turns. Things can still happen, especially bad things, such as dying or falling.

[Gildedragon]

When you're unconscious, you stop taking actions, but you don't stop taking turns. Things can still happen, especially bad things, such as dying or falling.
Moving is an action though, otherwise while flying i can full attack, or cast a metamagic spell as a sorcerer and move my full run speed (because I started running the last turn)

[fishyfishyfishy]

I agree with this, but I would add that the air has no brakes. Even though Good maneuverability enables you to hover or to change direction in midair, I believe you must be conscious to perform either maneuver. Therefore, if you're flying with the Fly spell and you suddenly become unconscious, I believe you don't just stop in midair and float straight down to the ground; instead, you continue in the same direction you were going before you lost consciousness, but at the same time, you slowly lose altitude, as the Fly spell indicates. You might easily bump hard into a wall, a tree, or an enemy before you land gently on the ground.

You're not a vehicle on wheels or tracks. It specifies it's as simple as walking, which imo implies that it takes conscious thought to move in any direction while flying. Interpreting it this way you would need minimal effort to remain aloft, and no effort at all to drift to the ground.

If you get knocked out while running you don't keep going forward until you hit something in your path, you drop to the ground and maybe slide a bit depending on your forward momentum. Thankfully the fly spell seems intended to prevent you from plummeting to your death.

[Duke of Urrel]

Moving is an action though, otherwise while flying i can full attack, or cast a metamagic spell as a sorcerer and move my full run speed (because I started running the last turn)

You must take an action in order to move voluntarily. This does not mean that when you move involuntarily (or when something else, such as gravity, moves you), you must take an action. You can fall, you can get hurled into a pit, or you can get picked up and carted away. All of these things involve movement, but none involves an action on your part.


You're not a vehicle on wheels or tracks. It specifies it's as simple as walking, which imo implies that it takes conscious thought to move in any direction while flying. Interpreting it this way you would need minimal effort to remain aloft, and no effort at all to drift to the ground.

If you get knocked out while running you don't keep going forward until you hit something in your path, you drop to the ground and maybe slide a bit depending on your forward momentum. Thankfully the fly spell seems intended to prevent you from plummeting to your death.

I didn't say you had to fall to your death. I agree that you should drift downward slowly if you lose consciousness while the Fly spell in in effect. I only argued that you should also keep your forward momentum when this happens. This suggestion was really more for flavor than anything else, though it is also in accord with real-world physics, which should work even in D&D unless the rules state otherwise.

[zergling.exe]

You must take an action in order to move voluntarily. This does not mean that when you move involuntarily (or when something else, such as gravity, moves you), you must take an action. You can fall, you can get hurled into a pit, or you can get picked up and carted away. All of these things involve movement, but none involves an action on your part.



I didn't say you had to fall to your death. I agree that you should drift downward slowly if you lose consciousness while the Fly spell in in effect. I only argued that you should also keep your forward momentum when this happens. This suggestion was really more for flavor than anything else, though it is also in accord with real-world physics, which should work even in D&D unless the rules state otherwise.

A great wyrm gold dragon can accelerate 1.28 million pounds (581,000 kg) to 29 mph (46 kpm) in a second, and bring it back to 0 in the same time. That's like accelerating 16 fully loaded semis to 30 mph instantly. Momentum does not exist in dnd and cannot possibly exist.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h110/lord_platypus/catgirltpreview.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/lord_platypus/media/catgirltpreview.jpg.html)

edit: I forgot about moving at 4x speed, so they can accelerate to ~120 mph instantly. A single feat (Run) would let them accelerate to 145 mph instantly.

[Duke of Urrel]

A great wyrm gold dragon can accelerate 1.28 million pounds (581,000 kg) to 29 mph (46 kpm) in a second, and bring it back to 0 in the same time. That's like accelerating 16 fully loaded semis to 30 mph instantly. Momentum does not exist in dnd and cannot possibly exist.

…

edit: I forgot about moving at 4x speed, so they can accelerate to ~120 mph instantly. A single feat (Run) would let them accelerate to 145 mph instantly.

An unconscious great wyrm gold dragon cannot stop in midair like this.

Neither can a flying spellcaster with forward momentum who suddenly loses consciousness and with it all flight control.

Momentum does exist in D&D – just like flatulence, photosynthesis, and countless other natural phenomena that the rules of D&D do not mention. Unless a particular rule in D&D indicates otherwise, we can assume that the world of D&D acts like the real world, physics and all. I'm not trying to argue that any D&D rule is invalid because of real-world physics. I'm only trying to argue that whenever the rules of D&D offer no account of what happens, real-world physics should fill in the gap.

No cat-girls were harmed in the typing of these words.

[zergling.exe]

An unconscious great wyrm gold dragon cannot stop in midair like this.

Neither can a flying spellcaster with forward momentum who suddenly loses consciousness and with it all flight control.

Momentum does exist in D&D – just like flatulence, photosynthesis, and countless other natural phenomena that the rules of D&D do not mention. Unless a particular rule in D&D indicates otherwise, we can assume that the world of D&D acts like the real world, physics and all. I'm not trying to argue that any D&D rule is invalid because of real-world physics. I'm only trying to argue that whenever the rules of D&D offer no account of what happens, real-world physics should fill in the gap.

No cat-girls were harmed in the typing of these words.

Trying to stop that much mass instantly is impossible in the real world without causing major damage to whatever it is you are trying to stop, so the same rules of momentum cannot apply. And if we are not using the real world's rules for momentum, which rules are we using?

The answer is none, as we are either not using any or using the real worlds.

[Duke of Urrel]

Trying to stop that much mass instantly is impossible in the real world without causing major damage to whatever it is you are trying to stop, so the same rules of momentum cannot apply. And if we are not using the real world's rules for momentum, which rules are we using?

The answer is none, as we are either not using any or using the real worlds.

In the world of D&D, we use bits and pieces of real-world physics on an ad-hoc basis, only when needed. There is no need to apply all of real-world physics. On this point, I quite agree with you.

[martixy]

People in this thread need to agree on a single vector of approach.

I myself favour the simulationist approach, whenever possible.

But if I were to approach it from the gamist perspective, I'd say people descend as if under the effect of Feather Fall. That is, 60 ft./round, till they hit the ground, taking no damage from impact.

@Guigarci, et al.
Now, under my preferred model, I'd say you'd be able to make 1 attack against all creatures in your flight path, would provoke attacks of opportunity and would lose your dexterity bonus to AC.
Casters would lose the ability to cast defensively, provoking an AoO, regardless of concentration. And you'd sum all damage you take during your flight for the DC of the Conc check due to injury.

Granted, I can admit it does suffer from a lot of shortcomings. For one, due to the turn-based nature of the game. And spellcasting like that should carry additional penalties for balance reasons. These are merely the immediately apparent implications of such an event.

On that note, any ideas on how to nerf magical flight just for casters? The only thing that comes to mind is Conc checks as if casting defensively.

[magicalmagicman]

On that note, any ideas on how to nerf magical flight just for casters? The only thing that comes to mind is Conc checks as if casting defensively.

Everyone here says flight is nothing, and only noob DMs let flight be awesome at later levels, just like invisibility.

I'd say it's fine the way it is and your way of ruling is just punishing spellcasters because you have some deep hatred of them.

I'd recommend the OP to let fly completely screw and force a retreat to melee combatants for the first encounter, but all later encounters have all creatures have some way of dealing with flight because the word is out that these PCs like magical flight. This thread has plenty of ways of shooting down fliers.

edit: Actually, it's not this thread, it's the other thread the OP created.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483858-Melee-v-s-Flying

edit2: My opinion on topic on hand is, you stop moving at the end of your turn, so there is no momentum. Fly, stop, standard action, fly, stop, standard action, etc. I vote that the caster just floats in mid air until spell duration runs out, even if he is unconscious, but he doesn't get any +ac against range when he's floating and unconscious (like he would if he was prone).

[martixy]

Everyone here says flight is nothing, and only noob DMs let flight be awesome at later levels, just like invisibility.

I'd say it's fine the way it is and your way of ruling is just punishing spellcasters because you have some deep hatred of them.

I aiming for a particular feel of the campaign which would be achieved by having a mechanically sound nerf to magical flight specifically. This specific change interacts with other rules, too long to post here, that create a much more varied and interesting game.

I have absolutely no hatred for casters.
It's a change that would be used along caster buffs such as allowing practically every spell to be permanencied.

But yes, part of the problem of coming up with a consistent rules, is that flying is finicky to deal with in a turn-based game.