Polymorph Undead

[Devigor]

So... Specifically, I'm looking at the Undead Anatomy spells...

Is there any way to transform into an undead hydra? I wanted to use the "relentless zombie" template combined with the "avian" template on the hydra to have a somewhat-slow full-party mount. The goal is for this critter to climb, fly, and swim (the party would be in a metal tank on its back, since our wizard is mostly a buffer, and is the one using some weird ways to give personal spells to people and then persisting them after) for movement, tear stuff to pieces with lots of biting and chewing (a.k.a. pounce & grapple) in combat, and to also have the fast healing and special senses of the original hydra.

We have been working on our characters and our concepts as a group. Since my changeling factotum/chameleon would get some major sneak attack boosts and he would be using SLA features with no components, he can cast as a hydra and use his cunning surge factotum thing and the heroic surge feat to take extra actions to charge and shred stuff.

Our DM loves our ideas but he wants us to avoid homebrew IF we can. If we have to use homebrew/houserules, he will, though.

If you have any other ideas, I'd love to hear those, too!

[Devigor]

Anyone got answers for this thread?

[Psyren]

As written, the "vaguely humanoid-shaped" restriction from UA1 does not get removed from the higher ranks of the spell. So you could be a zombie Ogre, or Elf Vampire, but not a zombie Hydra.

[Devigor]

As written, the "vaguely humanoid-shaped" restriction from UA1 does not get removed from the higher ranks of the spell. So you could be a zombie Ogre, or Elf Vampire, but not a zombie Hydra.

Hmm... Could I find a RAW or RAI way to do what I am aiming to do, without using those spells?

[Psyren]

Hmm... Could I find a RAW or RAI way to do what I am aiming to do, without using those spells?

PAO can change anything into anything else. Or, since you're using 3.5 things like Factotum and Chameleon already, just bring in the 3.5 version of Shapechange too, though I think templates might still be out.

[Devigor]

PAO can change anything into anything else. Or, since you're using 3.5 things like Factotum and Chameleon already, just bring in the 3.5 version of Shapechange too, though I think templates might still be out.

We converted those over because there is no current PF versions outside of those. 3.5 polymorph spells instantly got the banhammer a couple of levels ago due to the rest of the group ending up pestering me to exploit it (I didn't, but it was a distraction). That being said, I'll talk with the DM about it. Thanks for the mention.

[Jack_Simth]

PAO can change anything into anything else.The problem, however, is that when using a Pathfinder base, using Polymorph Any Object gives you a "function not defined" problem with some target forms (including undead, relevant here). Why? Well, Polymorph Any Object (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.html) "functions like greater polymorph, except..." and Greater Polymorph (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/polymorph.html#polymorph-greater) gives a listing of the specific shape spells it can duplicate. None of the Undead Anatomy spells are on the list (also nothing for constructs, nor outsiders other than elementals, nor fey, nor ...). Unlike 3.5, where polymorphic effects just gave you most the stats of the base form, Pathfinder is lacking that general rule setup. Each shape spell gives you [X] if the base creature had it, a size, general shape, natural weapons, and a specific set of buffs. There's little clear pattern from which to extrapolate, and there's no specific defined spell that'll get what the OP wants, and even if there was... it's a short list on Greater Polymorph. So using PaO for this purpose results in Function Not Defined, which basically means that the DM would be homebrewing the result anyway.

Given that the goal is a mount, though... try researching where you might find a suitable creature, killing it, then animating it yourself. Most DMs love player-generated plot hooks, and are quite willing to be accomodating, especially if it's liable to benefit the entire party directly.

[Psyren]

The problem, however, is that when using a Pathfinder base, using Polymorph Any Object gives you a "function not defined" problem with some target forms (including undead, relevant here). Why? Well, Polymorph Any Object (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.html) "functions like greater polymorph, except..." and Greater Polymorph (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/polymorph.html#polymorph-greater) gives a listing of the specific shape spells it can duplicate. None of the Undead Anatomy spells are on the list (also nothing for constructs, nor outsiders other than elementals, nor fey, nor ...). Unlike 3.5, where polymorphic effects just gave you most the stats of the base form, Pathfinder is lacking that general rule setup. Each shape spell gives you [X] if the base creature had it, a size, general shape, natural weapons, and a specific set of buffs. There's little clear pattern from which to extrapolate, and there's no specific defined spell that'll get what the OP wants, and even if there was... it's a short list on Greater Polymorph. So using PaO for this purpose results in Function Not Defined, which basically means that the DM would be homebrewing the result anyway.

Given that the goal is a mount, though... try researching where you might find a suitable creature, killing it, then animating it yourself. Most DMs love player-generated plot hooks, and are quite willing to be accomodating, especially if it's liable to benefit the entire party directly.

Your logic does not follow; objects are not on the Greater Polymorph list either, yet you can explicitly turn a sheep into a wool coat or a human into a marionette. The fact is that PAO is, for better or worse, unrestricted in what forms it can provide. All that matters is the duration factor. When a spell says "except," generally the stuff that follows the "except" is important.

The result is not "homebrew" if you're changing a creature or object that exists in the rules into another creature or object that exists in the rules. The spell is pretty clear what happens - if there are no duration factors in common, your transformation (whatever it is) lasts for 20 minutes, but you aren't prevented from making it.

[SimonMoon6]

Your logic does not follow; objects are not on the Greater Polymorph list either, yet you can explicitly turn a sheep into a wool coat or a human into a marionette. The fact is that PAO is, for better or worse, unrestricted in what forms it can provide. All that matters is the duration factor. When a spell says "except," generally the stuff that follows the "except" is important.

The result is not "homebrew" if you're changing a creature or object that exists in the rules into another creature or object that exists in the rules. The spell is pretty clear what happens - if there are no duration factors in common, your transformation (whatever it is) lasts for 20 minutes, but you aren't prevented from making it.

The issue is not "can someone be turned into X" but rather "what happens when someone is turned into X?". If someone is turned into a horse or a dog or a cat or a bat, they get abilities as described by the "beast shape" spells. If someone turns into a dragon, they get abilities from the "dragon shape" spell. If someone turns into a demon or a vampire... do their stats change? Do they gain the ability to fly? Can they see in the dark? In Pathfinder, we have no guidelines.

[Psyren]

The issue is not "can someone be turned into X" but rather "what happens when someone is turned into X?". If someone is turned into a horse or a dog or a cat or a bat, they get abilities as described by the "beast shape" spells. If someone turns into a dragon, they get abilities from the "dragon shape" spell. If someone turns into a demon or a vampire... do their stats change? Do they gain the ability to fly? Can they see in the dark? In Pathfinder, we have no guidelines.

On that we agree, it's up to the GM what you get at that point. But I would call that what it is - GM adjudication, rather than "homebrew." Picking one path among several that the RAW presents, rather than going outside it completely.

[Jack_Simth]

Your logic does not follow; objects are not on the Greater Polymorph list either, yet you can explicitly turn a sheep into a wool coat or a human into a marionette. The fact is that PAO is, for better or worse, unrestricted in what forms it can provide. All that matters is the duration factor. When a spell says "except," generally the stuff that follows the "except" is important.

The result is not "homebrew" if you're changing a creature or object that exists in the rules into another creature or object that exists in the rules. The spell is pretty clear what happens - if there are no duration factors in common, your transformation (whatever it is) lasts for 20 minutes, but you aren't prevented from making it.

You give appearance of misunderstanding what I intended by "function not defined", although SimonMoon6 appears to have caught what I intended. To put it another way: If you use Pathfinder's Polymorph Any Object to turn a rock into a stone golem, what's the RAW for the resulting creature's strength score? What's the RAW for its natural armor? Does it get Magic Immunity? There is no "construct shape" on the listing for Greater Polymorph, so when you use Polymorph Any Object to turn a stone into a stone golem, you have "function not defined" and the DM makes up the result to use at that table (in 3.5, those questions have a clear RAW answer; in Pathfinder, not so much). This is NOT the same thing as saying "You can't do that!" You can try it, but the result is going to be arbitrary and specific to the DM in question. You don't agree that the term "homebrew" is appropriate to the DM deciding what will happen in that instance? That's fine. That's just language drift.

[Psyren]

You give appearance of misunderstanding what I intended by "function not defined", although SimonMoon6 appears to have caught what I intended. To put it another way: If you use Pathfinder's Polymorph Any Object to turn a rock into a stone golem, what's the RAW for the resulting creature's strength score? What's the RAW for its natural armor? Does it get Magic Immunity? There is no "construct shape" on the listing for Greater Polymorph, so when you use Polymorph Any Object to turn a stone into a stone golem, you have "function not defined" and the DM makes up the result to use at that table (in 3.5, those questions have a clear RAW answer; in Pathfinder, not so much). This is NOT the same thing as saying "You can't do that!" You can try it, but the result is going to be arbitrary and specific to the DM in question. You don't agree that the term "homebrew" is appropriate to the DM deciding what will happen in that instance? That's fine. That's just language drift.

My point was simply that "function not defined" is not an end state. It means "GM, go define this." And the GM doing so would not be "homebrewing." Beyond that I think we're in agreement.