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View Full Version : Need help with "tablerules" and maybe a few more things



Jonesh
2007-06-21, 09:08 PM
So I am going to send an email to my players including various items of importance and such like,
first; A summary of our last session (nice for me as well), links to e.g. the use of swords like no-dachi and other armament and armour also some stuff from this forum, fluff about the setting, map(s) etc.
Secondly; Tablerules and houserules.

Houserules and tablerules vary from like, "Dice which lands on an edge or the floor must be rerolled", "Be a bit patient when I am narrating as you know this is my first campaign as a GM, I'm not used to speaking that much in front of
people and so forth...", "Hitpoints are an abstraction used for measuring how easily (or not) you can avoid being killed, not an approximate number of how many arrows or wounds you can receive before you die" and ofcourse other houserules I've decided are reasonable, say e.g. that spot, listen and search are classkills for all classes.

I would like help with suggestions on what more to include in both of those two categories. Since I have been reading a whole lot of good stuff here on GitP I thought here would be a great place to ask for help, especially since I got such a great response in the first thread I posted here. :smallsmile:

And here's why, it's a bit long so feel free to skip this part;

I asked one of the players (let's say #1) about this a few weeks and his opinion was that a document as such I'm now proposing would be a bit "ruleslawyery" like, and feel a bit heavyhanded. However, I disagreed and after our last session I kind of deemed it proper to write up such a document as quickly and nicely as possible.
To say why, #1 was impatient and interrupted me when I tried to give "City A's" neighborhoods some flavor as they walked through them (which I haven't done as much before, I blame my poor experience as a GM) in the style of;
- We'll head back to that nobleman's mansion.
- Alright, you walk through the dry streets of the shantytown, jostled by the crowd as a few armed groups of (religious crazies) eye you waringly. Beggars and unkempt hovels line the path, but you pass through the city's gates into the workingclass districts of the city. *Attempts another two-sentence description, but here's where I get interrupted. (I had only another two-sentence description left, the middle class-quarter where the nobleman lived)*
- Come on, aren't we there yet? You're stalling us!
- No, I'm trying to provide some much-needed flavour since I've missed out on giving you that the first few sessions.
- BLAHBLAH (I can't really remember what he said, but it was probably more about stalling and it was a bit rude and ticked me off since, y'know, I wanted us all to have fun)
- LOOK, this city, this WORLD is not just a stage background for you roll dice for damage and kill or torture NPCs, it's supposed to feel real and to your characters it is real! It's not just "City A" where you are following a "plot", it's a whole damn world where your CHARACTERS are LIVING and their actions have consequences to themselves, the world and the groups of people in it (etc.)
End dialogue and sorry for the caps here and there, but I wanted to mirror a bit how I said it even if it makes me look like an idiot :smalltongue:
I was apparently visibly upset here as one of the other players (say #2) tried to calm me down by asking me to continue describing the action (which I shortly thereafter did) and cracking a really silly joke which I couldn't help laughing at.
So that was cool, but soon after one of the characters (say player #3) recieved a lead on his "personal quest of enlightment", like, that he should seek out a person in "City B" in the near future, like, "no hurry mon" and #1 asked OOC if City B was included in his and #2's responsibility as bodyguard (to #2) and eyes-and-ears respectively. No shame in not remembering things told to them a few months ago, I said "No, #2's job is to monitor City A and the region around it". #1; Well great way to split up the party then :smallsigh:
"And I say that's a problem for your CHARACTERS if you want to stick together with your newfound buddies or not, you can still do alot of stuff here in City A and #3's in no hurry to City B. There might very well be reasons for you others to head south, and there might not be, it depends on YOUR actions and motivations!"

Alright, I was a bit grumpy that day and I felt I needed to get that out of my system since there's so few other people besides my players that I can talk with about roleplaying :smallredface:
/RANT

So, eh, what sorts of rules and other fluff- and crunch-things would you have in such a document I proposed (way off in the beginning)? :smallsmile:

EDIT: Also; a shout-out to anybody who plays/has played d20Wheel of Time RPG. Anyone? :P

Dementrius
2007-06-21, 11:44 PM
Any changes to the RAW eg.


"Banned" spells
Do you use Rich's diplomacy rules
Do missiles and launcher enhancement bonuses stack?
How do you roll HP for level up?
etc.


A good place to look is at the variant sidebars in the DMG. If they take your fancy, put them to the vote.

Other things:


Specific rulings on grey areas in the rules. (Ill defined combined spell effects are a favourite here)
Magic Items: Shops available / Only found / Comissioned or combination
Alignment - how evil is your evil? How good is good? Is there an equal split in the population between the three alignments (greedy merchants are evil theory) or is 90% of the population neutral, with 5% on each margin (greed merchants are just neutral, evil creatures should be wiped from the earth)

Damionte
2007-06-22, 12:13 AM
I feel for you. I can tell from your post that you and I have very similar GM styles. I have pretty much those same opinions on how to get things started and on developing plot devices for multiple characters.

I am about to pick up the GM reigns for our group as well. I've been a player in this group for the last few years and it's finally gotten aroudn to my turn to be full time GM, rather than guest shots in other peoples campaigns.

I also made a cheat sheet of house rules and expectations. I layed out my general idea for what I had planned. Gave a few suggestions for what I felt thier party should or should not have in it. Because I was using published materials for this one I knew that they would see a large amount of Goblinoid/Orcish creatures, undead, & Draconic races. also that they'd be spending a lot of time outdoors away from any large metropolis areas.

Thus my suggestions were more along the lines of. "A city based cloistered character would probably be more trouble than it's worth where you're going." Or if you're lookign for favored enemies, sea elves probably would not be a good idea.

Also because I am using a lot of published material in combination with my own stuff a well rounded party would be to thier benifit. So having someone able to perform the 4 basic archetypical rolls, of Warrior, Mage, Healer, Skill monkey would be welcome. (This isn't too much a problem in our party as we have 7 players + the GM but we still have trouble getting someone to play a cleric. especially since I "who usually plays the cleric" will now be GM)

When I first brought up the idea of a campaign outline there was a lot of resistance to the idea. They felt that by laying it out there I would be limiting them in some way. Turns out not to be as limiting as they thought. Giving them particular guidlines I feel will help narrows down the character choices especially considering our group uses ALL of the non world specific splat books.

On that note I also lay out inmy outline which customer rules were are and are not using. For instance we use the spell point system. so I laid uot that the spell point system was usuable for those who wished to use it, but for anyone who prefers the simplicity of slots systems they're free to use that instead.

Dementrius
2007-06-22, 01:11 AM
I wish I could send you the "Zhentil Keep Player's Guide" that I put together for my latest campaign. It had heaps of good stuff in it (houserules, available prestige classes and races, lists of notable noble family names, city timelines, regional maps, local shops split out by goods sold) that you could steal as ideas.

Did my players actually look at it? No.
Did it make them excited about starting a campaign with a colourful booklet? Yes.

Diggorian
2007-06-22, 02:04 AM
You could get an online site that serves as a campaign reference document (CRD) like I did (see sig link) or print out a handy dandy booklet like Dementrius for hardcopy referral.

What we allow or disallow will likely differ from you, alot of house/table rules come from running experience. Dont be afraid to add new stuff as it comes up or revoke old stuff.

As for the interrupted flavor text, save your energy and show them something without telling them. They're in a bustling crowded street, they say "so what", have them pickpocketed with a circumstance bonus for the crowd then cut to the destination.

You're right, description is creating an immersive world around them. If they choose not to interact with it, it can still interact with them. I always try to remember to put some bit of foreshadowing in my flavor so that it matters and they pay attention. They leave the noble's mansion and some religious crazy stops them in the street, "Do you repent your sins, brother?". They say something rude. "Fine, no repentence ... means contrition!" Three of his buddies hiding in the crowd step out encircling the party with maces. :smallamused:

Inyssius Tor
2007-06-22, 04:17 AM
Ah, this is the part where you put nasty surprises late in the flavor text! Of the "Okay, the kidnapper --and all six children chained to the wall behind him-- are incinerated" kind, or the "after opening the clearly-marked door, you charge through --and off the edge of the cliff" kind. :smalltongue:

Sutremaine
2007-06-22, 03:07 PM
Ah, this is the part where you put nasty surprises late in the flavor text! Of the "Okay, the kidnapper --and all six children chained to the wall behind him-- are incinerated" kind, or the "after opening the clearly-marked door, you charge through --and off the edge of the cliff" kind. :smalltongue:
And then they ask why their character didn't notice the children... :smallyuk:

LotharBot
2007-06-22, 03:36 PM
Stuff you should include:

TABLE RULES
- die rolling rules. Mine: "if it doesn't land flat on the table, reroll it" and "if you're rolling a handful of dice, you have to drop them all at once. No dropping one and then seeing it's a 1 and picking it back up and saying oops, but leaving it if it's a 6."
- talking rules. Is it OK to interrupt the DM's descriptions? Some people think, if they interrupt the DM, they'll get a surprise round. Try to establish that interrupting you won't give any benefit, and might even penalize you. Also, are the things said around the table considered "in character" or "out of character" by default? My party uses character voices when they speak in character, and I don't mind a bit of OOC chatter, but you might need to establish other rules.
- break rules. When it's not your turn, can you get up and play XBox, get a snack, have a smoke, use the bathroom, etc? Does the group regularly take breaks where everyone can get up and do whatever, or do you just wait for a lull in the action?
- household rules that aren't game related. Things like "take your shoes off when you come in" or "no smoking indoors" or "no swearing".

CHARACTER/GAME RULES
- character creation rules. Do you roll 4d6/drop lowest? Point-buy? Starting wealth? Extra character bonuses? (I give each character a "free skill" that's not from their normal class list but is treated as automatically having max ranks. Leads to some interesting situations when the wizard has a great sleight-of-hand or the barbarian is a world-class drummer.)
- book availability rules. What books can you use for classes, spells, PrC's, etc?
- item availability rules. Do you have to custom-order items? Is everything available? How useful are Craft feats in your campaigns?
- other houserules: banned spells, HP roll rules, whether you use multiclass penalties or not, flaw availability, and so on.

Diggorian
2007-06-22, 03:43 PM
Ah, this is the part where you put nasty surprises late in the flavor text! Of the "Okay, the kidnapper --and all six children chained to the wall behind him-- are incinerated" kind, or the "after opening the clearly-marked door, you charge through --and off the edge of the cliff" kind. :smalltongue:

Although tempted, I wouldnt go that far. :smallamused: Blatantly obvious things I feel must be mentioned, like sniveling kids chained behind BBEG or the door being along the edge of the Grand Canyon.

But if players in their haste dont take the chance to make a spot/listen check where they should, I'll strike ... with maces to the head :smallwink:

Jonesh
2007-06-22, 06:33 PM
I can't say I'm in favour of letting PCs do their actions in such a way as you've described, Inyssius Tor, since I think such harsh discipline to my players would be akin to smacking an infant on the head whenever it does anything bad. It works in the short term but it's counter-productive in the long run :smalltongue:
Ofcourse, if I let them do such things there might be funny stories for me to tell at this here forum... :smallamused:

Right, lots of points to reiterate as I'm writing the letter, like, right now :P

1 Definitely a minimum HP gain/lvl for all characters and Rich's Diplomacy model. I linked to the "Gaming" part of the site and told them that's a good read :smallbiggrin:

2 Variants, yes. In the letter I'm linking to variants and such that I like. Def. traits and flaws. I think it gives them more incentive for roleplaying, since I also mentioned to them that they'll fill out a questionnare(sp?) and I'll keep that in mind when awarding them RP-XP for their behaviour and such

3 We haven't encountered any poorly worded spells or rules yet, we'll take care of that when the time comes.

4 No magic shops and no alignment. The setting (wheel of time) is low-magic like, and their personalities will be more concrete when they've finished the questionnare. There's good and evil in the setting, but, meh. The players used alignments a bit to explain their characters in character generation :P

5 I've mostly just talked about the outline of the campaign (since not even the outline is finished, eep! I know, bad GM :smallredface:) and what I've had is basically a tour across the lands, chasing evil where it's at, and going up to the northern, evil-infested nations to prevent a 3000 year "old" (he was put in stasis) BBEG from, well, being evil I guess :smalltongue: , ravaging the good people and killing their saviour. I think at the end they'll probably score a McGuffin of some sort (ofcourse, there's foreshadowing) to weaken the BBEG and defeat him.
However, generally everything is clear in my mind.
There'll be both wilderness and great cities, "magic", fighting and so forth. Unfortunately, before we got started, the skillmonkey and "cleric" left so Iäm left with mostly different kinds of meléers and a blaster/illusionist spontaneous "wizard". So I I'll have to have a bit of downtime after almost every major fight if there's not going to be a team KO, but that could be fun too :smalltongue:
Any tips for this situation btw?

6 Dementrius, why can't you send it? Is it non-digital (perhaps, not-digital anymore? :smalltongue:) or something? 'Sounds like a real shame though, I'd love to have the resources and skills to do something like that. My players only get a map made in Paint and a few handwritten/computerwritten documents :smalltongue:

7 I read through that link in your sig some time ago, my experience of people's sigs here are that most times they're interesting and your CRD was solid work :P I might want to give it a spin (preferably as a player though, haha) if I wasn't so hyped about playing in Eberron which at the moment is much more likely, and still cool :smallbiggrin:

8 Hey, I might just do that first bit. It's realistic, isn't it? If you're not aware of your surroundings a pickpocket might see that and capitalize on the situation :smallamused:
And for the second bit, well... That pretty much happened. I also had to look up "contrition", that's good. You can't have enough synonyms for repentance :smallbiggrin: The PCs assaulted the nobleman (heavily suspected contractor of an assassin) and his guards, winning handily, but after a few moments the ruckus (and screams. There was a guard with his face on fire, blame the wizard :smalltongue:) were heard by both the nobleman's off-shift guards next door and the crowd outside. The guards demanded surrender, the crowd was incited by "the People's Judge" (see religious crazies) and wanted entry to the mansion. The guards only let in the handsome and plain-clothed Judge to speak for the mob and after awhile (out on the street) the PCs and the guard-sergeant realise that the Judge only wants to give the crowd a showy execution and he got no authority beyond the one vested in him by the religious nuts and the common Joe.
They're saved in the nick of time by the cream of the city watch, who recieved news that there was a potential uprising. The watchmen disperse the crowd relatively peacefully and nick everyone except the Judge, who's heretical is pretty much in control of the country, not to say the whole city :P The PCs were quite a bit, erm, "not believing" in the Judge's authority in front of the Judge himself, and he already suspected them of attempted manslaughter so he's gone and told everyone to be wary of that group of "Darkfriend troublemakers".
Oh I DO ramble on :smallredface:

9 Dierolls, yes. Added that and your "all dice at once", seemed reasonable enough. Default talk is IC if in English and for actions, OOC and such we use Swedish :P And we sit at the table until we get hungry and/or decide for a break. We've mostly had one food break and one general break each session.

10 The free skill sounds interesting, and I've jotted down most houserules now. Bookavailability is not much of a problem since we play in a bit of an unique setting and, in short, I'll have to allow everything they want. It really hasn't been much of an issue yet =3

Oh damn that's a long list.

Dementrius
2007-06-23, 08:10 AM
6 Dementrius, why can't you send it? Is it non-digital (perhaps, not-digital anymore? :smalltongue:) or something? 'Sounds like a real shame though, I'd love to have the resources and skills to do something like that. My players only get a map made in Paint and a few handwritten/computerwritten documents :smalltongue:


Got email? - I'll send it through. I was just at work at the time (diffent PC and they frown on me writing adventures there for some reason).

Also, I thought it was quite large, but after seeing it again, it comes down to about 1.7 MB zipped up.

Edit: In fact, if anyone else out there would like a copy PM me with an email address and I'll send it through.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-23, 08:39 AM
There's a couple of issues here.

On whether you need a document: I think they help. Putting things in writing makes people confront them. If you're not happy writing a rule down, you probably won't be happy playing by it either.

On the guy interrupting you. Personally, I don't like to be a conversation nazi at the table. It *does* sound like this guy was being a jerk, but I might be able to shed some light on where he was coming from (although this in no way excuses him acting like a ****).

These days I use virtually no flavour text as a GM. It doesn't get you anything. Background description becomes just that: background. Players don't remember things unless they interact with them.

Look at the Lord of the Rings. What do you remember about it, the tortuous, detailed descriptions of the landscape or the bits where something actually *happened*. You probably have an image in your mind of Lothlorien, but it's probably got a lot more to do with Galadriel, the mirror, and the gifts than it does with however Tolkein actually described the location.

Alveanerle
2007-06-23, 04:45 PM
Edit: In fact, if anyone else out there would like a copy PM me with an email address and I'll send it through.

I'd be delighted to receive such an example from you, yet it seems you have incoming PMs blocked.
Either that or i don't know how to operate them, as i get the following message:



Dementrius has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

Dementrius
2007-06-23, 05:45 PM
I'd be delighted to receive such an example from you, yet it seems you have incoming PMs blocked.
Either that or i don't know how to operate them, as i get the following message:

No - my bad. I hadn't set up my profile to receive.

Should be OK to try again now.

Jonesh
2007-06-24, 10:28 AM
Dan_Hemmens, I don't see myself as a conversation-Nazi, I mostly let my players talk to eachother IC as much as they want and if they interrupt me with questions about my narrating I answer them peacefully. I guess the deal with the player who interrupted was his tone, also, I had only talked for about 20 seconds or something so I didn't see that as the guy being patient at all :smallyuk:
I see your point on flavour and such, and your example struck home. But that might as well be because I haven't read any Tolkien for like 3-4 years or something.
However, my arguments for taking time to narrate descriptions and such is that I'd like to be able to help my PCs picture the scene better and since it's a non-standard d20-setting it helps describing monsters and such a bit more then just giving the PCs the names of things, places and creatures. Eh, or something like that :smalltongue:

Dementrius, I'll send you a PM now.

Lastly, the e-mail has been sent.
Thanks for all the great input everyone :smallbiggrin: