Are Dorukan and Lirian freed?

[The_Void]

These thoughts are shamelessly stolen from this tumblr post: http://mindareadsoots.tumblr.com/post/142327503375/so-heres-an-interesting-question-xykon-manages

In short for those not wanting to click the link:

a) Xykon traps the souls of Lirian and Dorukan in a soul gem.
b) Xykon and his entire base operations at the time - Dorukan's dungeon - were blown up.

We can assume that the gem was either on Xykon's person or somewhere in the dungeon when it blew. Therefore, is the gem destroyed? I don't know how resistant to damage one would be, but that was a pretty damn big explosion. And if this gem is destroyed, does this mean that Dorukan and Lirian's souls are now free to go to the afterlife - or even, to be ressurected?

[Vendanna]

These thoughts are shamelessly stolen from this tumblr post: http://mindareadsoots.tumblr.com/post/142327503375/so-heres-an-interesting-question-xykon-manages

In short for those not wanting to click the link:

a) Xykon traps the souls of Lirian and Dorukan in a soul gem.
b) Xykon and his entire base operations at the time - Dorukan's dungeon - were blown up.

We can assume that the gem was either on Xykon's person or somewhere in the dungeon when it blew. Therefore, is the gem destroyed? I don't know how resistant to damage one would be, but that was a pretty damn big explosion. And if this gem is destroyed, does this mean that Dorukan and Lirian's souls are now free to go to the afterlife - or even, to be ressurected?

I think that nope, they are still trapped inside. and probably they will be freed once at the end (when xykon got defeated) since they CAN explain first hand what happened with the order of the scribble. So in order to sustain the mistery, they cannot appear until the end.

[Kish]

We can assume that the gem was either on Xykon's person or somewhere in the dungeon when it blew.
You can assume whatever you like, but I think it's putting you on a collision course with disappointment.

[hroþila]

That whole business with the Gate and then the dungeon exploding didn't prevent Xykon from somehow keeping Dorukan's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html). Presumably, he's not required to keep track of his inventory to that extent.

Or neither of those items was on Xykon's person at the time and they were retrieved on the way out. Who knows.

[NerdyKris]

I'd go with no as well. The two spell casters who sealed the rifts being in a convenient soul gem waiting for the Order to rescue them and relay the information on how to cast the spells seems to be the more likely scenario. Having them freed off screen really doesn't serve much purpose, and makes that scene in SOD sort of pointless.

And since they'd be dead, so their souls would be just as unreachable as Soon and Girard's are, so the purpose of the gem seems to be to keep them in a location where they can speak to the Order.

[The_Void]

Just to clarify the purpose of this thread: I don't expect Dorukan and Lirian to show up, and if they did it would rather ruin that scene in SoD, as somebody said. I just came across the theory and found it made a lot of logical sense, so I was looking for rebuttals to it.

[Vinyadan]

Maybe Xykon already had a special place on another (demi)plane where he kept his stuff, and he just pimped it when he put his phylaktery there.

[Keltest]

Maybe Xykon already had a special place on another (demi)plane where he kept his stuff, and he just pimped it when he put his phylaktery there.

That seems the most likely scenario to me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just to clarify the purpose of this thread: I don't expect Dorukan and Lirian to show up, and if they did it would rather ruin that scene in SoD, as somebody said. I just came across the theory and found it made a lot of logical sense, so I was looking for rebuttals to it.

The easiest and most ironclad rebuttal is upthread: Dorukan's headband survived the explosion and is still in Xykon's possession, therefore there is no reason to believe the jewel was lost. How Xykon kept the items is open to speculation - the idea he has an extra-planar supply closet is perfectly possible for an epic sorcerer. Remember that he was ready for the OotS, so he might have removed and stored any items he would not have wanted to risk in the confrontation (especially non-combat items such as the jewel and the headband).

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

More than that, defeating Xykon and his minions in the Dungeon of Dorukan seems to have gotten the Order exactly a level-appropriate treasure--which is a great deal less than a thoroughly epic sorcerer would be expected to have. The only personal possession Xykon seems to have lost there was his nonmagical crown, which Roy specifically took as a trophy.

[The_Void]

Maybe Xykon already had a special place on another (demi)plane where he kept his stuff, and he just pimped it when he put his phylaktery there.

That makes perfect sense. Disappointed I didn't think of it myself :P

[Darth Paul]

The meta-answer, although not really answering the question you posed, is- yes, they're free, because even though they're trapped in the gem, they're together. I believe Lirian gave that answer in the comic.

[NerdyKris]

She says the gem is no longer a prison because they have each other, but they certainly are not free, as they cannot leave the gem.


More than that, defeating Xykon and his minions in the Dungeon of Dorukan seems to have gotten the Order exactly a level-appropriate treasure--which is a great deal less than a thoroughly epic sorcerer would be expected to have. The only personal possession Xykon seems to have lost there was his nonmagical crown, which Roy specifically took as a trophy.

I'm still clinging to the theory that the crown has some significance. It's just too obvious the way Xykon went out of his way to steal it, and took it back from Roy.

[Grey Watcher]

Heck, you don't even need to suppose extra-dimensional storage (though, as has been pointed out, that's eminently plausible for a mid-to-high level Cleric and an epic level Sorcerer). I believe there's enough time for Redcloak to have gotten to a mundane storage closet/room/drawer/whatever and gotten a few small items (eg the headband, the gem, Xykon's half of the ritual, etc.) before leaving.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Xykon totally does have extradimensional storage space, he constructed a private stronghold on the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), didn't he? Although there's no word on whether he stashed the gem containing Lirian and Dorukan's souls there.

Come to think of it, that seems like an excellent candidate for the target of the "move the Gate to a planar destination" ritual that we found out Redcloak has just a couple strips beforehand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).

[hroþila]

Xykon totally does have extradimensional storage space, he constructed a private stronghold on the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), didn't he? Although there's no word on whether he stashed the gem containing Lirian and Dorukan's souls there.
But we don't know that he owned any real estate on said plane before he built his fortress there. In other words, we don't know whether he had any storage space there while he lived in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

It's a reasonable guess, but not certain.

[Kish]

Xykon totally does have extradimensional storage space, he constructed a private stronghold on the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), didn't he? Although there's no word on whether he stashed the gem containing Lirian and Dorukan's souls there.

Come to think of it, that seems like an excellent candidate for the target of the "move the Gate to a planar destination" ritual that we found out Redcloak has just a couple strips beforehand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).
Or when Start of Darkness came out, as they case may be. But I'm unclear on what you're getting at. Redcloak, and thus the Dark One if he cares, knows that Xykon's phylactery is not in the planar fortress and as far as we know nothing of any actual significance is; why would the Dark One want to unleash the Snarl on it?

[Keltest]

Or when Start of Darkness came out, as they case may be. But I'm unclear on what you're getting at. Redcloak, and thus the Dark One if he cares, knows that Xykon's phylactery is not in the planar fortress and as far as we know nothing of any actual significance is; why would the Dark One want to unleash the Snarl on it?

Spite, perhaps?

[Pyrous]

Xykon totally does have extradimensional storage space, he constructed a private stronghold on the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), didn't he? Although there's no word on whether he stashed the gem containing Lirian and Dorukan's souls there.

Come to think of it, that seems like an excellent candidate for the target of the "move the Gate to a planar destination" ritual that we found out Redcloak has just a couple strips beforehand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).

The target of the ritual is one of the Gates. The destination is to be selected by The Dark One at a later time and would probably be one of the godly realms, as he want to use it to blackmail the gods.

[KillingAScarab]

The only personal possession Xykon seems to have lost there was his nonmagical crown, which Roy specifically took as a trophy.Vaarsuvius said the ring of wizardry was Xykon's, but in retrospect it didn't make V appear evil to paladins. It could have come from Dorukan even if it was pried off Xykon's charred fingerbone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html).

[NerdyKris]

I'm willing to bet the crown is not just a normal crown. It seems too obvious, given that Xykon went out of his way to steal it, and only it, we know of one magical property it has, and Xykon retrieved it before killing Roy (in other words, Rich made a point of him taking back that exact crown and not just putting on a new one). It seems like there might be more to it, perhaps something Xykon isn't quite aware of yet.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Or when Start of Darkness came out, as they case may be. But I'm unclear on what you're getting at. Redcloak, and thus the Dark One if he cares, knows that Xykon's phylactery is not in the planar fortress and as far as we know nothing of any actual significance is; why would the Dark One want to unleash the Snarl on it?


The target of the ritual is one of the Gates. The destination is to be selected by The Dark One at a later time and would probably be one of the godly realms, as he want to use it to blackmail the gods.

Well, first off, Redcloak (as per his own statements) is merely playing along with Xykon until some future time when their alliance will no longer serve Redcloak's purposes. That might be one way of Redcloak getting Xykon out of the way permanently; what it lacks in subtlety it makes up for in "nuke it from orbit" certainty, if correctly targeted and timed (say, if Xykon retreats there after getting backstabbed or defeated). And if the ritual then needs to be performed again to permit moving the gate/tear to yet another plane, at least it won't be stashed in a place that happens to be an inhabited planet.

Alternatively, it's not impossible that a suitably skilled cleric could get a hold of the written-down part of the ritual and devise a different divine portion to give control to a more Good-aligned deity or entity instead of the Dark One.

EDIT: I also wouldn't be surprised if Xykon realized that the phylactery he got back from Redcloak in #832/#833 was a fake, and is just feigning ignorance of Redcloak's gradual treachery. If the phylactery is so fundamentally bound to Xykon, he should be able to sense whether his soul is actually in the object he's physically holding, right?

[NerdyKris]

His soul isn't in the phylactery, it's in his body. It only goes into the phylactery if his body is destroyed, until he can grow a new one.

He definitely can't sense his phylactery, otherwise he wouldn't have had search parties out looking everywhere for it when it was lost.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, they're still inside, but we'll probably never see them again. Even if we do, they're likely to have developed a venomous loathing for each other during their confinement.

[Grey Watcher]

Yes, they're still inside, but we'll probably never see them again. Even if we do, they're likely to have developed a venomous loathing for each other during their confinement.

They haven't been trapped THAT long. Granted, coming up on 2 years isn't exactly a short stint, but it's not like they've been in there for the decade it's taken to unfold in real-world time.

Plus, they're disembodied spirits, so the physical issues of being confined together in a small space that would lead to such rancor are largely absent.

[Deliverance]

I'm willing to bet the crown is not just a normal crown. It seems too obvious, given that Xykon went out of his way to steal it, and only it, we know of one magical property it has, and Xykon retrieved it before killing Roy (in other words, Rich made a point of him taking back that exact crown and not just putting on a new one). It seems like there might be more to it, perhaps something Xykon isn't quite aware of yet.
I really don't see it.

What makes you think that Xykon would not go out of his way to kill an archmage merely to get his hands on a thoroughly non-magical crown because it looked stylish and he wanted it?

It really doesn't need any others to serve its purpose - showing that Xykon is perfectly willing to go out of his way for style and to satisfy his own momentary desires regardless of the cost to others and even the risk to himself. (Something we also see in other situations.)

It has exactly one demonstrated property - radiating evil - something that has been hand waved away as being a result of being worn by Xykon for so long. I don't see why it would need any others.

[The Fury]

Just to clarify the purpose of this thread: I don't expect Dorukan and Lirian to show up, and if they did it would rather ruin that scene in SoD, as somebody said. I just came across the theory and found it made a lot of logical sense, so I was looking for rebuttals to it.

As has been pointed out previously, while the theory does make logical sense it doesn't make much narrative sense. Why would we see their souls trapped on panel to have them freed off panel? In a book that readers of the main comic aren't expected to have read even. To add to that, it's been alluded to that in the Order of the Stick universe narrative law is actually physical law. With that in mind, it actually seems quite impossible that that they've been freed.

[Kish]

Zimmer, I will be amazed if we get a random downer bit like Dorukan and Lirian hate each other now. Rich has always been clear on what he thinks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15874171&postcount=38) about that kind of writing.

Well, first off, Redcloak (as per his own statements) is merely playing along with Xykon until some future time when their alliance will no longer serve Redcloak's purposes. That might be one way of Redcloak getting Xykon out of the way permanently; what it lacks in subtlety it makes up for in "nuke it from orbit" certainty, if correctly targeted and timed (say, if Xykon retreats there after getting backstabbed or defeated).
Ah, I see. The assumption you didn't bother to state was "Xykon will go to his fortress at some point."

[zimmerwald1915]

Zimmer, I will be amazed if we get a random downer bit like Dorukan and Lirian hate each other now. Rich has always been clear on what he thinks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15874171&postcount=38) about that kind of writing.
It wouldn't be a random downer bit for its own sake, but rather in service to the story. In no case can the Scribblers be relied upon. What better way, short of keeping them forever offscreen (which I acknowledged as the far more likely possibility), is there of making Dorukan and Lirian unreliable than of separating them emotionally?

[Roland Itiative]

Xykon probably kept most of his junk, specially the stuf f he'd have no use for during the attack on the dungeon of Dorukan, in his tower (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html). He'd have no reason to keep the gem on his person after he had already conquered the dungeon, and stashing it safely "home" is just a matter of casting a couple of teleports.

[Kish]

It wouldn't be a random downer bit for its own sake, but rather in service to the story. In no case can the Scribblers be relied upon. What better way, short of keeping them forever offscreen (which I acknowledged as the far more likely possibility), is there of making Dorukan and Lirian unreliable than of separating them emotionally?
Your weird-ass downer doesn't even relate to what you're saying it would be for.

Things that can prevent them from acting as the cavalry for the Order:
1) They're stuck in Xykon's pocket, and will not be freed until Xykon is destroyed anyway.
2) If the Order somehow retrieved the gem without defeating Xykon, they would still need two True Resurrection spells to get both Lirian and Dorukan back, and whatever Xykon's reason for not stopping them from going through his pockets, it's unlikely to last long enough for Durkon* to prepare two True Resurrection spells, even if Roy made the bizarre tactical decision that two low-epic characters Xykon already flattened would be worth giving up that much momentum.
3) Something else that actually accounted for them being unable or unwilling to fight Xykon.

Something that wouldn't prevent them from separately helping the Order, and in fact would serve no purpose at all except a GRRM-ish make sure you remember that everything is pointless and hope is a lie note:
1) They hate each other now.

*Please no one point out anything specific to the current plot arc as an invalidation for speculation about the end of the overall story. Yes, this does include Durkon not yet being level 17.

[zimmerwald1915]

Things that can prevent them from acting as the cavalry for the Order:
1) They're stuck in Xykon's pocket, and will not be freed until Xykon is destroyed anyway.
I've said twice now that this is by far the most likely outcome. How many more superlatives ought I to attach?

[Kish]

No, actually, you said it was either we'd never see them again or they'd hate each other--not that we wouldn't see them until Xykon was defeated. (Not that "Even if we do, they're likely to have developed a venomous loathing for each other during their confinement" is justified by not having been the primary scenario you asserted, but the most important thing here is that both scenarios you allowed are fundamentally nihilistic in a way that's entirely the wrong approach to Rich's writing. There is all the difference in the world between "we never see them again" and "we see the gem broken and them heading off to the Neutral Good afterlife in the last few strips.")

[Rogar Demonblud]

Alternatively, it's not impossible that a suitably skilled cleric could get a hold of the written-down part of the ritual and devise a different divine portion to give control to a more Good-aligned deity or entity instead of the Dark One.

The written down part is the arcane half. The divine half is directly implanted in the mind of any priest of The Dark One who dons the Crimson Mantle.

[Kish]

I believe the Necrocomicon is suggesting that--for example--Vaarsuvius and Durkon, examining the arcane portion of the ritual, might be able to devise an alternate divine portion of the ritual, which would give control of the rifts to Thor instead of to the Dark One.

[Keltest]

It wouldn't be a random downer bit for its own sake, but rather in service to the story. In no case can the Scribblers be relied upon. What better way, short of keeping them forever offscreen (which I acknowledged as the far more likely possibility), is there of making Dorukan and Lirian unreliable than of separating them emotionally?

Keeping them confined in the soul gem away from the Order? Gerard may have hated Soon, but its also clear he was not entirely of sound mind regarding him. Sane people who hate each other can work together fairly easily, given sufficient motivation. Remember, it wasn't until after the scribblers finished their quest that the tension separated them.

[Vinyadan]

It wouldn't be a random downer bit for its own sake, but rather in service to the story. In no case can the Scribblers be relied upon. What better way, short of keeping them forever offscreen (which I acknowledged as the far more likely possibility), is there of making Dorukan and Lirian unreliable than of separating them emotionally?

Given that they all were still guarding their gate or had erected very functional defences, I don't see why they should be unreliable.
They weren't perfect, of course, and some simply talked too much. But making them completely unreliable doesn't make much sense, because they have already failed: that's why we have a group of pcs doing their job. It feels like something done for the sake of it, and to take satisfation in pulling a weird turn on the reader. Something that meaningful should have some meaning.

[Kish]

I'm with Zimmer as far as "the Order will never again have the aid of anyone more powerful than they are without that help turning out to be ultimately as barbed as Tarquin's was."

It is entirely possible and seeming quite likely that my reasoning is fundamentally different from Zimmer's, however.

[rodneyAnonymous]

The written down part is the arcane half. The divine half is directly implanted in the mind of any priest of The Dark One who dons the Crimson Mantle.

He almost certainly knew that already. The suggestion was that a skilled cleric might find the written-down half and create their own version of the divine half.

There is a strong tendency on this forum for commenters to post "corrections" (often in error) to previous posts. I don't know about you, but that tendency discourages me from posting.

[Jasdoif]

Alternatively, it's not impossible that a suitably skilled cleric could get a hold of the written-down part of the ritual and devise a different divine portion to give control to a more Good-aligned deity or entity instead of the Dark One.So you're thinking something like....the only hope for the world is finding a copy of Xykon's half of the ritual in his fortress on the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), and somehow reverse engineering it before the last Gate can be destroyed or given to the Dark One?

[Roland Itiative]

Would altering the Dark One's ritual even allow someone to make new Gates? Aside from both rituals requiring a divine and arcane caster, they haven't been said to have anything else in common, have they?

[Jasdoif]

Would altering the Dark One's ritual even allow someone to make new Gates?Almost certainly not. Lirian and Dorukan made the Gates in the first place, though, which might be relevant at some point (especially in this thread).

But giving control of the Gate to some deity who has more to lose than to gain from destroying the world or releasing the Snarl might improve the situation, at least temporarily.

[martianmister]

There is a strong tendency on this forum for commenters to post "corrections" (often in error) to previous posts. I don't know about you, but that tendency discourages me from posting.

Please don't do that! Its's really hard to find good commentators around here.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He almost certainly knew that already. The suggestion was that a skilled cleric might find the written-down half and create their own version of the divine half.

There is a strong tendency on this forum for commenters to post "corrections" (often in error) to previous posts. I don't know about you, but that tendency discourages me from posting.

A skilled cleric would look at the scroll and see the scribbles of a bored mind, because divine casters can't see, use or understand arcane scrolls. Even Tsukiko, the only person we've seen in comic with knowledge of both arcane and divine magic, had no clue what the scroll was. Despite knowing that the ritual was going to be a cooperative casting by Xykon and Redcloak (I.E., arcane and divine casters). Even after the MITD rubbed her face in the fact she only had half the ritual, she still couldn't figure out a single detail of the other half.

So the putative cleric is blocked (a priori and a posteriori) from doing what was suggested.

There's a term for posting impossible theories to a forum. Something about trees...

[NerdyKris]

Given that the ritual is a teleportation spell intended to be cast on a gate, and doesn't work on the rifts, I doubt it would be used to recreate the gates. And moving the last one to a location more dangerous to the gods would make them more likely to go with destroying the world, not less. Right now, on the planet is still the safest location for the gate. There's no benefit to the gods in moving the gate, it only increases the risk, given that even Redcloak isn't sure if it even works. Remember, the Dark Ones plan B is to be part of the planning for World 3.0 if the spell fails, so even a god isn't sure if it works.

[Kish]

Remember, the Dark Ones plan B is to be part of the planning for World 3.0 if the spell fails, so even a god isn't sure if it works.
Don't remember that, for it's not accurate. Remember that the Dark One's plan B is to be part of the planning for World 3.0 if the Plan fails, say because the gods tear the world apart before the spell can be cast.

[NerdyKris]

Redcloak and Right Eye discuss the fact that they don't know if the ritual will work or unleash the Snarl immediately, complete with a crayon drawing of it reaching through the gate and killing them, to which Red Cloak replied that it would still be an acceptable option, as the Dark One would now have a say in World 3.0. There concerns were specifically about the Snarl getting free, not the gods unmaking the world. Therefore, I would assume that the spell is not guaranteed to work, and would be too dangerous to cast, even if they're transferring control to Thor or some other good god.

[Jasdoif]

Redcloak and Right Eye discuss the fact that they don't know if the ritual will work or unleash the Snarl immediately, complete with a crayon drawing of it reaching through the gate and killing them, to which Red Cloak replied that it would still be an acceptable option, as the Dark One would now have a say in World 3.0. There concerns were specifically about the Snarl getting free, not the gods unmaking the world. Therefore, I would assume that the spell is not guaranteed to work, and would be too dangerous to cast, even if they're transferring control to Thor or some other good god.The ritual could be dangerous to cast, sure. But what if the alternative is giving agents of the Dark One (or Hel) the opportunity to destroy the Gate?

[Roland Itiative]

I don't see how giving the last Gate to any god would improve the situation at all. There will still be a bunch of rapidly-growing Rifts left to deal with, which would require new Gates to be made. And even if that happens, giving a Gate to any specific god will only make it so everyone else decides that "hey, it's better to remake the world after all, we don't want *insert god here* having power over all of us". Apparently it takes 15 minutes for the Snarl to act on an open Rift, and it takes less time than that to remake the prison, I see no reason to believe that opening a Gate would somehow make the Snarl react faster.

The Dark One's plan may have been to catch the gods unaware and blackmail them before they had time to act, but now that they are all prepared for the Snarl to escape, his Plan B might be the only course of action even if he does grab hold of a Gate.

[TheNecrocomicon]

A skilled cleric would look at the scroll and see the scribbles of a bored mind, because divine casters can't see, use or understand arcane scrolls. Even Tsukiko, the only person we've seen in comic with knowledge of both arcane and divine magic, had no clue what the scroll was. Despite knowing that the ritual was going to be a cooperative casting by Xykon and Redcloak (I.E., arcane and divine casters). Even after the MITD rubbed her face in the fact she only had half the ritual, she still couldn't figure out a single detail of the other half.

So the putative cleric is blocked (a priori and a posteriori) from doing what was suggested.

There's a term for posting impossible theories to a forum. Something about trees...

Back to that "cooperative casting" thing -- I should have been more explicit that I figured the cleric in question would most likely be working in tandem with someone skilled in arcane magic (whether a wizard, a sorceror, etc.) -- or someone cross-classing between, say, wizard and cleric may have enough levels in both to understand and maybe modify both halves, even if they probably need one or more true specialists to actually perform the ritual.

Either control over the Gate could be given to a more Good-aligned or non-global-destruction-inclined deity who would be less likely to abuse it (fat chance, I know, as power corrupts), or maybe the ritual could be subverted somehow to bring the destination under control of a non-divine being, perhaps even using it as a way to help get it away from a looming villain and into a safer place.

I don't know. All it seems to me is that the ritual is unlikely to end up performed in its currently known format and for its currently known intention, since it would basically bring the world to ruin in the form of the Dark One having dominion via blackmail, or if it is performed as currently known, the Dark One's control over the Gate will most likely be broken or blocked somehow.

[Rift_Wolf]

I'm pretty sure the detail of dorukan and lirian being trapped in a soul gem was thought of after the dungeon was blown up. That said, I'm pretty sure Xykon would have extradimensional pockets for that kind of thing. He's always losing his keys.
A sad but probably not going to happen possibility is dorukan and lirian are still trapped, buried under the rubble of dorukans former home... Oh wait Jim Butcher isn't writing this. No fates worse than fates worse than death here thanks.