Doing away with Short Rests

[Ruslan]

I personally found the Short Rest mechanic to be interfering with the flow and balance of my game. The Warlock and Battlemaster both want to Short Rest after every encounter, while the Paladin and Barbarian want to push forward.. they have nothing to gain from a short rest, unless they happen to be hurt. The Wizard wants to Short-rest exactly once per day, but after that quickly loses interest in resting...

Also, the guidelines say classes are balanced for 2 Short Rests per day... those are the guidelines. But the reality on the ground might be different. If the intraparty dynamic is to push forward all the time, the Warlock gets the shaft. If the dynamic is to short-rest all the time, after every encounter, the Warlock becomes very powerful.

And this type of "you must short-rest exactly twice per day" control is not something the DM can constantly enforce, not without breaking verisimilitude, anyway. He can nudge toward it, but not enforce it. So it's a choice between loss of balance and loss of verisimilitude. Also, frankly, I get tired of this schedule enforcement just to maintain balance. To me, the game should be balanced to begin with! I shouldn't have players complaining to me "you are letting the group after every encounter, and the Warlock and Battlemaster overshadow everyone!" (or vice versa). Basically, it's extra work.

And so, it hit me. If I want 2 short rests per day, I should just remove short rests at all, then multiply the short-rest resources by x3, and make them daily. So, this is how it works:

Any ability that can be used "N times per short rest" now can be used "3xN times per day, and no more than N times in a single encounter" (the last clause is because otherwise it inadvertently creates a nova too powerful for comfort).

- A level 2 Warlock has 6 spell slots per day, and no more than 2 can be used in a single encounter.
- A level 7 Monk has 21 Ki points per day, and no more than 7 Ki can be used in a single encounter.
- A level 2 Fighter has 3 uses of Action Surge per day, and no more than 1 can be used in a single encounter.
- A level 3 Battlemaster has 12 Superiority Dice, and no more than 4 can be used in a single encounter.
- A level 6 Bard with Charisma 20 can use Bardic Inspiration 15 times per day, and no more than 5 times in a single encounter.

And so on. Special cases:

Wizard's Arcane Recovery: Once per day, when not involved in combat or under a direct threat, you may recover ... etc.
Druid's Land Recovery: same
Sorcerer's level 20 ability: You gain +8 Sorcery Points (because if there are 2 short rests and you recover 4 SPs on a short rest, it's exactly equivalent to 8 extra points).

Now, all is left to do on a Short Rest is hit point recovery - and everyone is on equal footing here - there's no intraparty dynamic messing with balance.
And if you want, you can even do away with this aspect of the Short Rest. Replace short-rest healing with "Twice per day, when not involved in combat or under a direct threat, you may recover any number of hit dice. The total amount of hit dice recovered this way can't exceed your character level", and that's it, you've done away with Short Rests entirely.

[DanyBallon]

May I ask how 2 enforcing 2 short rest a day break versimilitude?

In our game, short rest are the equivalent of lunch time and mid afternoon break. Long rest star when we set camp for the night.

We had players arguing to take a short rest after a big fight, that happend right after lunch time break, and our DM explained to us that it wouldn't make sense to stop for an other hour, about 15min after the last break. So instead, we used med kit and potions and moved foward and that was fine as it make sense.

[Ruslan]

May I ask how 2 enforcing 2 short rest a day break versimilitude?
Like this:

We had players arguing to take a short rest after a big fight, that happend right after lunch time break, and our DM explained to us that it wouldn't make sense to stop for an other hour, about 15min after the last break.
If a player says "I rest right now", and the DM says "you can't" that breaks verisimilitude right there. What is this mysterious force or voice from the sky that prevents the player from resting? YMMV, of course, but my problem is that I don't want to be that force. That's not the type of thing I want to take care of or even consider when I DM.

Once more, this is my personal preference, and I have happened to find a tool that satisfies it, and possibly others that share my preference will find this tool useful. If you don't share my preference, obviously this tool is not needed for you.

[DanyBallon]

Like this:

If a player says "I rest right now", and the DM says "you can't" that breaks verisimilitude right there. What is this mysterious force or voice from the sky that prevents the player from resting? YMMV, of course, but my problem is that I don't want to be that force. That's not the type of thing I want to take care of or even consider when I DM.

Once more, this is my personal preference, and I have happened to find a tool that satisfies it, and possibly others that share my preference will find this tool useful. If you don't share my preference, obviously this tool is not needed for you.

It's all OOC talk, so no mysterious force or voice out of the sky. It's just a fair discussion between the DM and the players in order to move the story forward.

Having players that ask for a rest every fight is what breaks versimilitude for me. That kind of request is pure metagaming, nothing else.

[busterswd]

I think your system is fine, but a bit overly complicated to fix something that's kind of a non-issue. Breaking DM character to deliver an adjudication is a necessity in most games I've played. You're also assuming max benefits from a short rest, which players won't always get.

If you want to be less blunt about hitting them over the head with the rules, instead of saying "you've reached your short rest limit for the day", just say something along the lines of "after an hour passes, your meditation proves fruitless, and you don't regain your spent ki". Or "you realize your wounds are going to need a lot more time off your feet to successfully close".

[Socratov]

I disagree. I think short rests are a great way to create short term resource constraints, while making them available for longer periods. And the party dynamic between the long rest focused classes (like paladin) en the short rest focused classes (like warlock) is a bit of party dynamic and actual roleplaying.

About the actual solution, the problem with it is as follows: it's a recovery mechanic and taking that away in exchange for the daily equivalent is the fact that you enable those classes to go fully nova. Some of the Warlock spells are great for going nova, and don't start me on druid's wildshapes and sorcerers going nova with their sorcery points and metamagic.

By the way, short rests are what surprise encounters are for. You don't get the (long/short) rest benefits if the rest is not completed in... well... rest.

So, this extra mechanic will 1) introduce a divide on agendas on wether to rest or not, 2)give ample opportunity to control the resources of your players, 3) create ample opportunity to throw some random monster/plothook/ally/whatever at the party.

If you feel that the party rests too much, give them some reasons not to. either in terms of a race, random encounters, a party of hunters ganging up on them. There will always be a reason not to stop, and this can be especially hard on some party members and less so on others. On the other hand, by allowing more short rests the quick guns, so to say, can unload more times allowing you to thrown tougher stuff at the party.

Personally I'd rather not like to go back to 4e's daylies/encounterlies/at will power structure, but I do lament the difference between some classes and others in terms of short rest and long rest abilities. Especially the barbarian and paladin's cases.

That said, the warlock gains next to nothing from a long rest, so... There is that...

[Rhaegar]

The one thing about requiring a short rest, is that it limits the players ability to rest in dungeons, where over an hour period of time it takes to rest, it is almost certain that roaming patrols would find them.

I don't think it's to unreasonable to think that a group of adventurers might take a rest after a big fight that wore them out, even if they did have lunch 15min ago. They are hurt, and may want to bandage up, someone may have pulled a muscle, another may have stubbed a toe, while they could go on, it's not all that unreasonable that they might want to rest up a little.

If players are resting up more than you'd like them to, just keep throwing more bad guys at them in the middle of their rest until they realize they should probably move on before the next wave of bad guys comes.

[Baptor]

snip

Everyone here is going to think I'm insane. But we did away with short rests. Now at the end of any encounter you get all your hp and short rest uses back and I design every encounter to be "deadly" or higher. We like it. Less book keeping.

[Rhaegar]

Everyone here is going to think I'm insane. But we did away with short rests. Now at the end of any encounter you get all your hp and short rest uses back and I design every encounter to be "deadly" or higher. We like it. Less book keeping.

If every encounter is truly deadly or higher, you should be having players dying on a fairly regular basis. Is this the case, do the players like this extra level of risk of death?

And yes, you are insane.

[Xetheral]

If players are resting up more than you'd like them to, just keep throwing more bad guys at them in the middle of their rest until they realize they should probably move on before the next wave of bad guys comes.

As a DM, I would much, much, much rather that my decisions on when and where enemies appear be based on A) the logical responses of the NPCs to the players actions and B) whatever will be the most fun. I do not want to have to juggle those two factors with C) trying to achieve metagame class balance by interrupting the PC's ability to rest.

I'm with the OP: the fact that differing classes value short rests differently can create problems at my table. Mostly I've managed to avoid those problems, but it required effort and finesse in adventure design that could have been spent maximizing other goals. I'm curious to read more about how the OP's idea works and other posters' responses.

[BladeWing81]

after the first 1 short rest per day you can simply do 2 random encounter rolls (1 for each half hour of the short rest) with the DC set at your discretion. If they manage to not go into a fight that's ok but it gives the players a warning that short rest can't and shouldn't be abused.

[Ruslan]

Everyone here is going to think I'm insane. But we did away with short rests. Now at the end of any encounter you get all your hp and short rest uses back and I design every encounter to be "deadly" or higher. We like it. Less book keeping.So basically auto-short rest after every encounter, and raise the bar for difficulty. I kinda like that option too.



About the actual solution, the problem with it is as follows: it's a recovery mechanic and taking that away in exchange for the daily equivalent is the fact that you enable those classes to go fully nova.

There is nothing in my proposal that supports nova-ing at all. In fact, under my proposed system no character ever get more resources per-encounter that they did originally.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Everyone here is going to think I'm insane. But we did away with short rests. Now at the end of any encounter you get all your hp and short rest uses back and I design every encounter to be "deadly" or higher. We like it. Less book keeping.
I like of like this. I've gotten used to games like M&M and Fate where if you don't take a really serious hit you pretty much recover fully at the end of a fight. Then again, I'm not a big fan of resource management in my RPGs to begin with.

Ruslan's solution isn't bad; it's actually a pretty neat way of putting everyone back to the same standard of resource recovery.

[Mellack]

Won't this change push for them to take a long rest after 3 encounters? Before a warlock got his two spells for an expected 2-3 encounters, then recharge on the short rest. Now the warlock can use two spells each encounter until he used up his six. I think you may find the discussion has changed from taking a short rest to wanting to take a long rest.

[Temperjoke]

I think that this is more a problem that your group is facing, rather than a system issue. Why does half your party want a short rest after every encounter? Are they blowing through all their resources on small fries? The short rest requirement is supposed to be a limiting factor to keep certain things in check, without that, you're going to have some classes way outshining the others. Like it was mentioned, the group negotiating these factors is all part of the group dynamic. If there are good reasons for not taking a break, such as in the middle of a dungeon, then the group shouldn't take a break just for sheer desire to recover a few resources. By the same token, however, taking a long rest is actually even riskier than a short rest. Hiding someplace for an hour or two is easier to do than hiding for 8 hours, at least, without the DM conspiring to allow it.

[Segev]

The cost of a short rest is time lost travelling, or time spent vulnerable without accomplishing anything in a dungeon crawl. In a more civilization-centric adventure, it's time lost while others are doing things. Others who may be moving plans forward that the party wants to thwart.

The way to make short rests more judiciously used is to introduce a time pressure. Honestly, if there isn't the time pressure, the long-rest classes are still shooting themselves in the foot by pressing to not take short rests when the short-rest-dependent party members ask to; more effective team-mates makes things easier.

[MrStabby]

So I allow my players two "meals" (short rests) per day. They take place out of combat, only take a couple of minutes and players can take them at different times to each other.

This has helped a lot. There is now no conflict in the party between going forwards or resting as it is a personal choice as to when a character uses their rest. In addition those with short rest mechanics always get their regulation 2 per day.

[Notafish]

Just brainstorming here, but could the short-rest resource management aspect be simulated by giving players with short-rest recharges 2 "short rest" tokens per day that recharge their warlock spells, ki, etc (a wizard would get one spell recovery token)? This way, they wouldn't need buy-in from the rest of the party to re-top their resources, but they also would have to choose when to re-fill the charges, leaving the long- and short-rest powers somewhat distinct mechanically.

Edit: looks like MrStabby does a similar thing.

[Segev]

Just brainstorming here, but could the short-rest resource management aspect be simulated by giving players with short-rest recharges 2 "short rest" tokens per day that recharge their warlock spells, ki, etc (a wizard would get one spell recovery token)? This way, they wouldn't need buy-in from the rest of the party to re-top their resources, but they also would have to choose when to re-fill the charges, leaving the long- and short-rest powers somewhat distinct mechanically.

Edit: looks like MrStabby does a similar thing.

This is roughly what I would do if actually adjudicating short rests in-game was too difficult. They get 2 such tokens per long rest, and PCs may expend them individually whenever they like, as long as they're not in the middle of an encounter. Very game-ist, but it would work.

[Rhaegar]

Won't this change push for them to take a long rest after 3 encounters? Before a warlock got his two spells for an expected 2-3 encounters, then recharge on the short rest. Now the warlock can use two spells each encounter until he used up his six. I think you may find the discussion has changed from taking a short rest to wanting to take a long rest.

You can currently take an unlimited number of short rests per day, but you can only take one long rest per day. If your party is in a dungeon, are they going to lay down for the night every third encounter? If they rest in a dungeon they will very likely get ambushed, if they leave and come back, they will likely find that the watch has been doubled, and new fortifications are in place.

If you have any kind of time pressures at all, you're not going to call it a day after 30min of adventuring. In my games, my players know that unlike video games, time passes, and there can and will be repercussions for taking to long to get to something. If you delay rescuing someone to long, you may find that they have been moved at best, or sacrificed/executed at worst.

[Ruslan]

I actually like the idea of two short rest tokens per day (and each PC may take his own individually). The rational being that once you used up both, taking another beating (read: encounter) will make you so tired that a short rest is no longer useful, and only a long one will suffice.

[Segev]

I actually like the idea of two short rest tokens per day (and each PC may take his own individually). The rational being that once you used up both, taking another beating (read: encounter) will make you so tired that a short rest is no longer useful, and only a long one will suffice.

If you go this route, I'd abstract the tokens entirely. Don't give an in-game explanation, other than "I needed to catch my breath" to explain why it's a hard per-encounter limit, still.

Or, if you really want it to be an in-game explanation, let a "short rest" be as short as "5 minutes without strenuous activity." Allow them to walk around and keep up with the party. Then you can use your rationale that they can only get a "5 minute breather" to recover twice per day. After that, they're too drained for that to be enough.

[DivisibleByZero]

I increase the length of time a short rest requires every time the party takes one.
First short rest requires 15 minutes.
The second requires 30 minutes.
The third (if I'm nice enough to allow a third without interrupting it) requires an hour.
If I allowed a third, I will most definitely interrupt any further attempts.

You don't have to say "No, you can't rest." But you also don't have to let them complete any rest that they start unless you WANT them to complete it.

[BW022]

I don't see a problem which isn't solved via in-game consequences for resting (or not resting).

Create a variety of encounters and situations where players face a challenge (or consequences) by resting on not resting... and let them figure it out. If they are attacking a goblin cave and they keep short resting -- have all the goblins form up in one room, alert, defenses up, etc. If they are chasing a kidnapped person through the streets of a city and short rest -- have the kidnap victim on the next ship out of the city. Likewise... if they don't rest when they have certain chances... let the bad guy pound them.

Players should naturally look at each other's abilities and work as a team. Paladins should realize that if they push on (without need) and the warlock is out of spells... they are going to feel the brunt of the combat. Likewise, the warlock should realize if he keeps nova'ing spells every combat (without need) they can run into cases where their isn't time to rest and he'll be forced fighting with cantrips. However... there is no point in the DM getting involved. Just make your encounters varied and let the players sort it out.

[Coidzor]

Have you considered something like: You have to spend a HD to short rest and if you can't spend a HD because you're out, then you can't short rest anymore.

So other than level 1, which is horrible and doesn't last long anyway, this limits short rests possible in a day and makes injured short-rest-centric classes have to choose between being more vulnerable due to low HP or potentially limit the number of times they can recharge during the day.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Disclaimer: didn't read all responses.

If you feel like excessive short rests are silly, house rule them as 10 minute breaks. Let the fighter catch his breath and patch up some cuts and scrapes. Let the monk calm down and recenter himself. If the non short rest builds complain to move on constantly, maybe your DM needs to beat up on them more. Also, who do you play with that's so self-centered they won't pause for a short respite to accommodate their allies??? Everyone has had the "should we rest or not?" conundrum, but we always resolve it by either resting, or the guys who want to move on help the ones who feel they need a break.

Yes, some builds are based on short rests while other's abilities have to last for the day. Thank goodness! I'm glad we're not playing 4E. It just makes it interesting, as far as I'm concerned.

Other than in game time of day lapsing, it's goofy to restrict short rests... After you fight, you're going to stop for a break unless there's impending doom biting at your heels.

[Magnetized]

I don't like the short rest system myself really. I tend to use the gritty realism variant because then I don't feel like I have to design six encounters per day, and partly because it's easier to balance those encounters around the classes that gain resources back from a short rest and those that don't.

On another note, I spent ten years in the Marine Corps and most of the people I play with or DM for were or currently are in the Corps. Everyone prefers the gritty realism rest variant because it's just more believable for us. I know that it's strange since no one has an issue with spells or magical equipment but everyone really has an issue with believing that their characters can be in 6 fights a day and still walk for over 20 miles while dressed in armor and carrying a pack.

I think your idea of just granting the extra resources as if you had taken the rests is fine as long as you make an effort to balance it. I think granting 3 times the base is way too powerful actually. The DM guide calls for two short rests over an adventuring day with six encounters. You would need nine encounters a day to balance the extra power you are granting the "short rest" classes.

[NewDM]

The one thing about requiring a short rest, is that it limits the players ability to rest in dungeons, where over an hour period of time it takes to rest, it is almost certain that roaming patrols would find them.

One word for you: Rope trick. Wait... that's two words.


I don't think it's to unreasonable to think that a group of adventurers might take a rest after a big fight that wore them out, even if they did have lunch 15min ago. They are hurt, and may want to bandage up, someone may have pulled a muscle, another may have stubbed a toe, while they could go on, it's not all that unreasonable that they might want to rest up a little.

If players are resting up more than you'd like them to, just keep throwing more bad guys at them in the middle of their rest until they realize they should probably move on before the next wave of bad guys comes.

Rope Trick


As a DM, I would much, much, much rather that my decisions on when and where enemies appear be based on A) the logical responses of the NPCs to the players actions and B) whatever will be the most fun. I do not want to have to juggle those two factors with C) trying to achieve metagame class balance by interrupting the PC's ability to rest.

I'm with the OP: the fact that differing classes value short rests differently can create problems at my table. Mostly I've managed to avoid those problems, but it required effort and finesse in adventure design that could have been spent maximizing other goals. I'm curious to read more about how the OP's idea works and other posters' responses.

I agree. If the players get 3-4 short rests because the story allows it, then that's fine. If they don't get a single rest, oh well.

A note to playing realistic dungeons: The DMG says the creak of a door can travel hundreds of feet in a dungeon. So if you have a single fight in an enclosed space like a dungeon, the entire dungeon is going to know you are there from the clangs of weapons on each other and armor, the screams of the dying, battle cries, and the explosion of spells.

If you were playing a realistic dungeon, they would form up and mob the party and that would just be a TPK. In early D&D editions this was actually how it played out, that and a wizard would cast a fireball into the main hallway and run and the fireball would fill the entire dungeon because it filled X number of spaces instead of staying in a specific shape and kill everything in it.

Wait, what was I talking about?

[Socratov]

So basically auto-short rest after every encounter, and raise the bar for difficulty. I kinda like that option too.


There is nothing in my proposal that supports nova-ing at all. In fact, under my proposed system no character ever get more resources per-encounter that they did originally.

Sure it does. The warlock gets 6 spellslots for a day and can go nova with all 6 of them in one encounter. The sorcerer gets +8 SP on lvl 20 to go (a bit) more nova. The druid arguably gets 6 wildshape uses to make sure he doesn't run out in between the fights (until lvl 20 that is), The monk has more ki-points and can go nuts with whatever it is he does. They might not get more per encounter, but they get access to all of their dayly allotment at the same time and have the option of going nova in one fight if they think they can last through the rest of the encounters for the day.

[JoeJ]

I don't consider it the DM's job to decide when the PCs take their rests. That's for the party to decide. They can rest whenever they want. What they can't do, however, is put the rest of the world on pause while they take a nap.

[Tanarii]

I think the Rest Variants on DMG pg 267 work very well.

For dungeon delving heavy campaigns where they will be fighting many encounter in the space of one in-game day, the Epic Heroism works well. Especially if you use the version that adds a 'overnight rest' for full recovery, and use wandering monster rolls. It does appear to make SR classes more appealing, and no-rest classes less appealing, if 5 min rests are pretty easy to obtain. But IMX in practice, it's usually pretty common to encounter 'wave' fights as nearby monsters are drawn to the sounds of combat.

For wilderness heavy campaigns in which enemies are separated by long travel and wandering monster checks aren't too common, the Gritty Realism variant works okay. It's also fantastic for urban campaigns, especially intrigue ones.

For campaigns that have fairly frequent random wilderness encounters, and dungeons are more 'lair' or 'tomb' types that have a fairly small number of encounters before its cleared out, the standard rest mechanic works okay.

Personally I've been thinking about introducing a sliding rest scale based on location: gritty for urban, standard with regular wandering checks for dangerous wilderness, and heroism of dungeon crawls. I think it'll work okay, on the basis that the mechanics aren't a simulation. ie a mechanical rest doesn't necessarily have to line up with a non-mechanical rest to make sense. It's just a way to refresh abilities at a speed appropriate to the expected frequency & availability of encounters in a location, while having in-game time pass at it's natural flow.

[Firechanter]

We count in days.
Only 1 LR per 24 hours.
Up to 2 Short Rests during the day. We call them Lunch and Teatime.
If we decide we need another LR at 9:05, the calendar advances to 9:00 of the next day.
Works well.

[Mhl7]

I really like to OP idea, but maybe there is a simpler version.

You can say that there is nothing to gain after the second short rest. You can simply add a line to every short rest recharging feature that reads exactly like arcane recovery.

"Twice per day, when you finish a short rest, ..."

I have no time to read every post right now, so I apology if the idea was already suggested.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sure it does. The warlock gets 6 spellslots for a day and can go nova with all 6 of them in one encounter. The sorcerer gets +8 SP on lvl 20 to go (a bit) more nova. The druid arguably gets 6 wildshape uses to make sure he doesn't run out in between the fights (until lvl 20 that is), The monk has more ki-points and can go nuts with whatever it is he does. They might not get more per encounter, but they get access to all of their dayly allotment at the same time and have the option of going nova in one fight if they think they can last through the rest of the encounters for the day.
Did you miss the part where he limits how many resources may be spent in a single encounter*? The Warlock gets 6 spells/day, but can only spend 2 in a given fight.

*You might possibly switch that to a discrete unit of time like "per minute" instead, for those that will complain about vermissitude.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is this variant tailored to just the classes your group is now playing? If so, it makes more sense than otherwise, and IMO it's overly complicating a not very complicated system.

Not sure if you did this, but look at all 12 character classes. Consider how each one's features that recover on a short rest. Look at features that only recover on a long rest.

Hmm, I might make a spread sheet on this over the weekend as a visual aid.

[Segev]

Have you considered something like: You have to spend a HD to short rest and if you can't spend a HD because you're out, then you can't short rest anymore.I don't recall any rules that require you to spend HD; they give you the option, as an HP-recovery method. But unless you can provide a rules citation, I don't think there's anything saying you can't short rest without spending an HD.


One word for you: Rope trick. Wait... that's two words.Long-rest resource expended to make a short rest safer. I don't see a problem.


A note to playing realistic dungeons: The DMG says the creak of a door can travel hundreds of feet in a dungeon. So if you have a single fight in an enclosed space like a dungeon, the entire dungeon is going to know you are there from the clangs of weapons on each other and armor, the screams of the dying, battle cries, and the explosion of spells.

If you were playing a realistic dungeon, they would form up and mob the party and that would just be a TPK. In early D&D editions this was actually how it played out, that and a wizard would cast a fireball into the main hallway and run and the fireball would fill the entire dungeon because it filled X number of spaces instead of staying in a specific shape and kill everything in it.Depends on the dungeon. The more common modern module, you're right, because dungeons are typically unified dwelling-places of like-minded denizens. A kobold lair, a hobgoblin camp, a cult's temple, a military's barracks, etc. Older, "classic" designs had dungeons often be collections of one to two room lairs of individual monsters and powers that be, with complex internal politics. If the monsters even interacted at all.


I think the Rest Variants on DMG pg 267 work very well.

For dungeon delving heavy campaigns where they will be fighting many encounter in the space of one in-game day, the Epic Heroism works well. (...)

For wilderness heavy campaigns in which enemies are separated by long travel and wandering monster checks aren't too common, the Gritty Realism variant works okay. It's also fantastic for urban campaigns, especially intrigue ones.

For campaigns that have fairly frequent random wilderness encounters, and dungeons are more 'lair' or 'tomb' types that have a fairly small number of encounters before its cleared out, the standard rest mechanic works okay.

Personally I've been thinking about introducing a sliding rest scale based on location: gritty for urban, standard with regular wandering checks for dangerous wilderness, and heroism of dungeon crawls. I think it'll work okay, on the basis that the mechanics aren't a simulation. ie a mechanical rest doesn't necessarily have to line up with a non-mechanical rest to make sense. It's just a way to refresh abilities at a speed appropriate to the expected frequency & availability of encounters in a location, while having in-game time pass at it's natural flow.

If you want to re-introduce simulation to it, you could explain it by having wild areas having more of some sort of ambient energy which empowers and refreshes. It's why druids and barbarians and tribal sorts are powerful in their own realms. In urban areas, the increased power and wealth of many people in one place damps down this energy, or perhaps spreads it thinner per capita. In dungeons, something about their nature causes it to teem with this energy; this might also explain the seemingly-random amalgamations of flora, fauna, and weirder things in one place: they're attracted to the energy and sustained in part by it.

[PeteNutButter]

For starters I think your fix is just fine. It achieves the desired effects of phb balance, without having to apply excess time pressure on the PCs.

Throughout a normal campaign many DMs use the number of short rest per day as a way to help certain classes shine (more makes warlock better while none makes sorcerer or champion better etc).

I think the biggest problem comes in for sandbox games where it isn't the intention of the DM to railroad a time schedule into the players. In open games the PCs are on their own schedule. Occasional events and places (like dungeons) can urge them on, but ultimately if they want to leave an old crypt and come back in a hour or even a day or two to finish wiping out the mindless undead in it... no reason they couldn't.

Long rest (days) are easier to have as a time pressure, both logically and transparently. For instance the caravan moves every day, while the party moves out to scout/adventure in the evening. Things like that are obvious to the party, so the DM doesn't have to remind them of consequences of taking a long rest. Things measured in hours are usually a bit more subjective or guessy.

As for doing exclusively deadly encounters, past low levels I think that's THE WAY 5e plays best. Doing "medium" encounters with an optimized party are often a waste of time while we all smash d20s at each other and no one has any vested interest in the encounter, because its no real threat. The higher the PC level the more this becomes the case.

[Tanarii]

If you want to re-introduce simulation to it, you could explain it by having wild areas having more of some sort of ambient energy which empowers and refreshes. It's why druids and barbarians and tribal sorts are powerful in their own realms. In urban areas, the increased power and wealth of many people in one place damps down this energy, or perhaps spreads it thinner per capita. In dungeons, something about their nature causes it to teem with this energy; this might also explain the seemingly-random amalgamations of flora, fauna, and weirder things in one place: they're attracted to the energy and sustained in part by it.
That could work. But I generally don't like to change my world that much to reflect a mechanic. Besides, in this case, it'd be a change for a basic sandbox campaign in progress. So far standard rest variants haven't been an enormous issue, but that's because I haven't introduced any plot hooks leading to extended urban adventures or provided any large dungeons. But eventually I'm sure I'll want both.

As long as the players don't jump back and forth between environments, it'll mean a change up for most of an entire adventure-arc, so it shouldn't be too jarring to change back and forth.

[Baptor]

If every encounter is truly deadly or higher, you should be having players dying on a fairly regular basis. Is this the case, do the players like this extra level of risk of death?

And yes, you are insane.

Nope. No one has died died yet. People have gone to 0hp, and once it came very close, but no deaths yet, and I'm not pulling punches. They don't have magic items either. They are very, very good at this game.

Thanks to those who actually like it, I really didn't think anyone would consider it actually. I got the idea more or less from Pillars of Eternity. You get all your hp and encounter uses back after every battle. However there is a wound system too. We decided not to mess with a wound system.

[Segev]

That could work. But I generally don't like to change my world that much to reflect a mechanic. Besides, in this case, it'd be a change for a basic sandbox campaign in progress. So far standard rest variants haven't been an enormous issue, but that's because I haven't introduced any plot hooks leading to extended urban adventures or provided any large dungeons. But eventually I'm sure I'll want both.

As long as the players don't jump back and forth between environments, it'll mean a change up for most of an entire adventure-arc, so it shouldn't be too jarring to change back and forth.

Yeah, it generally won't be a problem. I just liked the mental exercise of trying to explain why it would work that way in-setting.

[Ruslan]

Sure it does. The warlock gets 6 spellslots for a day and can go nova with all 6 of them in one encounter.
You are seeing problems where there are none.

Any ability that can be used "N times per short rest" now can be used "3xN times per day, and no more than N times in a single encounter" (the last clause is because otherwise it inadvertently creates a nova too powerful for comfort).

- A level 2 Warlock has 6 spell slots per day, and no more than 2 can be used in a single encounter.

[Theodoxus]

I like it, Ruslan - I wouldn't use it, personally, as I like granting as many rest as the party feels they need... I would probably consider Baptor's idea, if I didn't have a couple 'RAWist's' in my game.

There appears to be a lot of skimming going on by people commenting on posts. I suggest y'all slow down and read what's written, and not jump to assuming what you think it there...

[EvilAnagram]

I don't think I would use this fix since my players are constantly resting to restore HP, but it seems perfectly fine to me.

[Serket]

I think that this is more a problem that your group is facing, rather than a system issue. Why does half your party want a short rest after every encounter? Are they blowing through all their resources on small fries?

Why wouldn't they? I mean, if resting has no OOC cost, then why wouldn't they want to rest? If I have two spells per rest and I use one of them, of course I could carry on... but if there's no time limit it is totally obvious we'd be better off if we rested.

Basically, rest mechanics encourage resting, and having a short rest/long rest split in class design causes OOC player on player conflict.

Of course, the GM could set up the world so that the resting options are limited. But that means the GM needs to design the world around the rest mechanics, which is an extra factor that they might not have wished to consider. I'm not going to be GMing 5th any time soon, but that would annoy me.

In video games, one of the reasons linear shooters switched to limited weapons and regenerating health (instead of the old school million weapons and health as items) was to make the player's state on meeting an encounter more predictable and hence make encounter design simpler. The equivalent in rpg design would be having health reset between encounters and having powers limited on a per-encounter basis. That might not be a bad plan.

Of course, an alternative to the OPs plan is to switch all classes to short rests, rather than switching all classes to long rests.

[Xetheral]

Of course, the GM could set up the world so that the resting options are limited. But that means the GM needs to design the world around the rest mechanics, which is an extra factor that they might not have wished to consider. I'm not going to be GMing 5th any time soon, but that would annoy me.

This was well said. It's particularly annoying when you're trying to make resting options limited yet not non-existent.

[Theodoxus]

In video games, one of the reasons linear shooters switched to limited weapons and regenerating health (instead of the old school million weapons and health as items) was to make the player's state on meeting an encounter more predictable and hence make encounter design simpler. The equivalent in rpg design would be having health reset between encounters and having powers limited on a per-encounter basis. That might not be a bad plan.

The primary problem I see with this, is, as with video games, all encounters would need to be far harder, to account for resource expenditure (or resources massively curtailed to account for easier encounters). If one could nova every encounter with no degradation of ability, the game would no longer feel like D&D and the arguments about 4E feeling like an MMO would be quaint in comparison to the backlash regarding such a change.

For a home game, I have no problem heading this direction. But for the chassis of the game, it's a deal breaker for me and probably a lot of other players.

Personally, I like the ablative feel of resource exhaustion. It feels more realistic - I know at work, I'm mentally drained by the middle of the afternoon, and certainly don't want to tackle a big project then. Pushing it off to 'after a long rest, and can nova it down' is always preferable.

[Coidzor]

I don't recall any rules that require you to spend HD; they give you the option, as an HP-recovery method. But unless you can provide a rules citation, I don't think there's anything saying you can't short rest without spending an HD.

It was a proposal, not a rules citation. It would be one way to potentially limit short rests being taken excessively if one couldn't take one while at full HP and that one couldn't take one if out of HD for the day.

[NewDM]

I really like to OP idea, but maybe there is a simpler version.

You can say that there is nothing to gain after the second short rest. You can simply add a line to every short rest recharging feature that reads exactly like arcane recovery.

"Twice per day, when you finish a short rest, ..."

I have no time to read every post right now, so I apology if the idea was already suggested.

This is a master stroke. Adding that to encounter based powers fixes everything if the game is designed around 2 short rests per day.


Depends on the dungeon. The more common modern module, you're right, because dungeons are typically unified dwelling-places of like-minded denizens. A kobold lair, a hobgoblin camp, a cult's temple, a military's barracks, etc. Older, "classic" designs had dungeons often be collections of one to two room lairs of individual monsters and powers that be, with complex internal politics. If the monsters even interacted at all.

In this case every species in the dungeon would gear up for war with each other and when the players stormed into a new area they'd get attacked by most of the fighting force waiting and ready.


If you want to re-introduce simulation to it, you could explain it by having wild areas having more of some sort of ambient energy which empowers and refreshes. It's why druids and barbarians and tribal sorts are powerful in their own realms. In urban areas, the increased power and wealth of many people in one place damps down this energy, or perhaps spreads it thinner per capita. In dungeons, something about their nature causes it to teem with this energy; this might also explain the seemingly-random amalgamations of flora, fauna, and weirder things in one place: they're attracted to the energy and sustained in part by it.

Someone suggested this in the play test and it was universally down voted.

[Serket]

If one could nova every encounter with no degradation of ability, the game would no longer feel like D&D and the arguments about 4E feeling like an MMO would be quaint in comparison to the backlash regarding such a change.

My word choice was a nod to 4e :smallsmile: I've never really understood this "feels like" D&D thing, which is not to say it's not important to people who do feel it - obviously it is. I'm just never sure what the core of the game is supposed to be, unless it's Baldur's Gate with Lich-time_stop-time_to_load_my_last_save_aargh.

From a design perspective I think you'd need to design the class powers around the refresh mechanic, which is what makes it so weird for me that there are "long rest" classes and "short rest" classes. If everything was running on encounters, or short rests, I'd expect significant reductions in nova abilities.

Having played larps that only had daily resources, I rather like it myself. But it absolutely wouldn't have worked to mix daily powers for some characters with another build model that ran on encounter powers.

For people who want the world to be just a world, absent gamey rest considerations, I think switching everyone to a daily/long rest only model is a fine plan. I just mentioned the encounter/short rest alternative because it does exist.

[EvilAnagram]

You know, I've never run into this problem. Whenever the question of a rest comes up, my PCs just ask each other if anyone wants to rest and make the decision based on a calm discussion.

I love being an adult.

[Tanarii]

I love being an adult.Nah. It's totally over-rated.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nah. It's totally over-rated.
Agreed. Avoid at all costs.

(Though I DO like being able to eat cake whenever I want. That's a nice touch)

[EvilAnagram]

I'm just saying, I can literally leave my house, buy Milk Duds and Dr. Pepper, and play video games whenever I want. Child me was totally right.

And my D&D group is made up of people who can behave like human beings!

Also sex is pretty nice.

[Grayfigure]

You are seeing problems where there are none.

While he did definitely miss the part about only being able to USE 2 slots an encounter, as an avid warlock player I can tell you that the warlock is still red dwarf, capable, at least. (Non nova, but still).

As a warlock, part of the game is the fear that we won't be able to get that short rest after the encounter. That's a healthy part of warlocking: rationing your resources. But if I know I'm guaranteed to get two spell slots for the next encounter, then I can blow my proverbial load with my two slots EVERY encounter. Sure, it's not 6 slot supernovae, but 2 slots without worry can make for some potent two slot casting.

[Theodoxus]

My word choice was a nod to 4e :smallsmile: I've never really understood this "feels like" D&D thing, which is not to say it's not important to people who do feel it - obviously it is. I'm just never sure what the core of the game is supposed to be, unless it's Baldur's Gate with Lich-time_stop-time_to_load_my_last_save_aargh.

From a design perspective I think you'd need to design the class powers around the refresh mechanic, which is what makes it so weird for me that there are "long rest" classes and "short rest" classes. If everything was running on encounters, or short rests, I'd expect significant reductions in nova abilities.

Having played larps that only had daily resources, I rather like it myself. But it absolutely wouldn't have worked to mix daily powers for some characters with another build model that ran on encounter powers.

For people who want the world to be just a world, absent gamey rest considerations, I think switching everyone to a daily/long rest only model is a fine plan. I just mentioned the encounter/short rest alternative because it does exist.

The bolded part... that's probably my problem with the idea - It's a lot of work for a problem that at least for the games I've played and run, doesn't exist.

As for LARPs, I've only played Amtgard. And I quit just as the 8.0 ruleset came online, which added refresh mechanics that hadn't existed before. For a bit of 'non-combat time', you could pretty much get any ability you used back... though the limiting factor was generally how many of a specific ability you had available at any one time - a bit like a warlock - having 2 slots for every encounter... you had to be pretty savvy what would be useful at the time.

But then, I hate PvP - I'm just not competitive by nature - so I typically played up the RP part and downplayed the combat part - much to the chagrin and annoyance of my teammates.

[Ruslan]

While he did definitely miss the part about only being able to USE 2 slots an encounter, as an avid warlock player I can tell you that the warlock is still red dwarf, capable, at least. (Non nova, but still).

As a warlock, part of the game is the fear that we won't be able to get that short rest after the encounter. That's a healthy part of warlocking: rationing your resources. But if I know I'm guaranteed to get two spell slots for the next encounter, then I can blow my proverbial load with my two slots EVERY encounter. Sure, it's not 6 slot supernovae, but 2 slots without worry can make for some potent two slot casting.This math only works if you have 3 encounters or less per diem. If you keep doing this and happen to run into that 4th encounter, where are your slots now? And as we all know, the 4th encounter of the day is probably the boss encounter :smallwink: Anyway, there's still resource management, even if a bit different one.

[NewDM]

I'm just saying, I can literally leave my house, buy Milk Duds and Dr. Pepper, and play video games whenever I want. Child me was totally right.

And my D&D group is made up of people who can behave like human beings!



Yeah, I used to think that too, now I'm dying of diabetes from high sugar content and heart disease from sitting around playing video games. I realize that my childhood self was wrong and my mother was right. I should have listened to what she told me when I was a child.

[Grayfigure]

This math only works if you have 3 encounters or less per diem. If you keep doing this and happen to run into that 4th encounter, where are your slots now? And as we all know, the 4th encounter of the day is probably the boss encounter :smallwink: Anyway, there's still resource management, even if a bit different one.

And how often are you going to run into the 4th encounter situation, truthfully? While in some dungeons you no doubt will, unless the dm sets it up where it happens all the time, you run into the situation I described multiple times, where the warlock is just blast happy with his slots with no consequences.

[Ruslan]

And how often are you going to run into the 4th encounter situation, truthfully?
You may have been misled by the smilie in the previous post, so I'll repeat it without the smilie. Not often, but when you do, it's the big boss encounter.

[Tanarii]

I'm just saying, I can literally leave my house, buy Milk Duds and Dr. Pepper, and play video games whenever I want. Child me was totally right.Can or do, whenever you want? Only one of those is being an adult. :smalltongue:

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah, I used to think that too, now I'm dying of diabetes from high sugar content and heart disease from sitting around playing video games. I realize that my childhood self was wrong and my mother was right. I should have listened to what she told me when I was a child.

That's why my wife and I exercise and cook healthy meals, which I actually like more than Milk Duds and Dr. Pepper. My childhood self would be amazed.

Once again, adulthood rocks!


Can or do, whenever you want? Only one of those is being an adult. :smalltongue:

Can, of course. I wouldn't DM if I couldn't handle responsibility.

[Doug Lampert]

And how often are you going to run into the 4th encounter situation, truthfully? While in some dungeons you no doubt will, unless the dm sets it up where it happens all the time, you run into the situation I described multiple times, where the warlock is just blast happy with his slots with no consequences.
If you're not running into that fourth encounter then you're screwing the at will classes anyway and everyone who cares about power should be playing daily power based classes anyway unless you can guarantee a short rest every encounter.

The game is based on an assumed six to nine or so encounters per adventuring day, four isn't an unreasonably high number. Except of course for urban campaigns, where four typically is too high; or rural campaigns, where it almost always is; or ... Hmm, maybe six to nine assumed encounters really is problematically high on a daily basis unless you play nothing but dungeon crawls with extreme time pressure, and with the dungeons having enemies who cooperate and reinforce if you withdraw but somehow FAIL TO NOTICE prolonged lethal combat in the room next door, and maybe expecting nearly full recovery overnight is absurd from both a realism and fiction standpoint; but then we're getting into changing the rest mechanic entirely.

[Segev]

In this case every species in the dungeon would gear up for war with each other and when the players stormed into a new area they'd get attacked by most of the fighting force waiting and ready.Sometimes. They don't always have "combined military forces," and the "powers" might be "a dragon" or other large monster. Think of it more like a sprawling, highly-unfriendly apartment complex with the occasional gang of weaker things in some areas with big, surly individual strongmen in others.




Someone suggested this in the play test and it was universally down voted.As a general rule, sure. I suggested it as a possible IC explanation for something somebody was looking at doing anyway, mechanically. Trying to codify it for every game would be messy.