Optimization Suggestions on lvl 5 new Bard [Archive]

pixelG

2016-04-06, 01:36 PM

Hello,
I am starting a new adventure and the DM said we can have a lvl 5 character with 1 uncommon magic item.
I decided I want to play the bard and at the moment my party is composed by:
- Barbarian (smash, smash)
- Rogue (sneak, sneak)
- Warlock / Wizard (undecided, undecided)

Seeing my party composition, I thought it would be a good idea to go healing/support instead of damage, so I will probably dip my 1st level in life cleric and then go bard (lore). The rough idea behind my bard is that I was abandoned in a monastery when I was very young (1 lvl cleric), but then left in my early youth when a caravan of Romani passed by. A couple took me in and they became my new 'parents' and mentor (sort like Kvothe in the Kingkiller chronicles). Then I left for adventure and loot =P

I was thinking about a breastplate + shield for a 14 + 2 (dex bonus) + 2 (shield) = 18AC

Now the choices.

ARRAYS -> we decided to go 27 point buy
I could go:
Human Variant: Cha 15+1 Wis 13 Int 10 Dex 14 Cos 12+1 Str 8, I would take Resilient CON (to get to 14 and proficiency)
Half Elf: Cha 14+2 Wis 13 Int 11 Dex 13+1 Cos 13+1 Str 10 (no malus, darkvision and 2 skills proficiencies)
Tiefling: Cha 14+2 Wis 13 Int 9+1 Dex 14 Cos 14 Str 8 (darkvision, thaumaturgy, hellish rebuke and darkness)

To be honest going Var Human seems very appealing for that Resilient feat at the beginning, but I would like some insights on pros and cons of the three choices.

BACKGROUND:
I don't have any idea what to pick that could make sense as RP point of view but that at the same time doesn't overlap with all the other proficiencies

MAGIC ITEM (1 uncommon):
Bag of Tricks seems to be useful and a 'bag of fun', otherwise something more "powerful" could be either:
- Adamantine armor for no crits with the 18 AC seems like a beefy bard
- Cloak of protection for 19 AC and +1 to saves
- Googles of night for darkvision if Human variant (is it THAT important? even though I am the only one with it?)
- Sentinel shield advantage on perception or initiative seems to be great for a bard.
Any idea on these?

Thanks for all the help/insights/advice you could give me!

PoeticDwarf

2016-04-06, 01:40 PM

Bag of tricks is awesome and not that bad

I'd go vhuman honestl. Except if you don't like them. Better get 14 wis and 11+1 (12) con so you avoid odd stats

Life cleric / lore bard is a nice combo. Go for it

Seems like a solid build! Have fun playing it :D

pixelG

2016-04-06, 02:03 PM

Better get 14 wis and 11+1 (12) con so you avoid odd stats

With VHuman I will have these stats:
Str = 8
Wis = 13 req for cleric
Dex = 14
Con = 14 (12 + 1 racial + 1 Resilient)
Int = 10
Cha = 16 (15 + 1 racial)

As much as I would love to have 14 in wisdom that would mean losing the bonus from CON (concentration checks) or DEX (Initiative rolls) and I couldn't find a workaround to maximize the stat. What would you suggest?

Aurthur

2016-04-06, 02:43 PM

War Caster will suit you better than Resilient in the long run. I recently did the same MC with an Aasimar. You get the +2 CHA and +1 WIS, Darkvision, and resistance to necrotic/radiant and some spells (lesser restoration) which'll save you down the line to save your secrets.

"Magic items" you can get Mithral Plate (uncommon) that means your starting AC will be 20 (w/shield) and you can keep your STR low (8 or 10).

Good luck.

busterswd

2016-04-06, 02:53 PM

War Caster will suit you better than Resilient in the long run. Disagree, though they're both great. Resilient gets stronger as the game progresses, because the bonus gets better, AND you start fighting some really nasty Con saves after level 5 or so. Warcaster is generally just advantage on concentration, although with that much AC, being in the front lines and abusing the casting spells on opportunity attacks may be nice synergy.

@ OP: Build and stats seem fine. It's hard to go wrong with Variant Human or Half Elf, and life cleric for extra AC is always a solid dip (although the heal bonus is sort of overrated, except in very specific spell combinations like Goodberry and Aura of Vitality).

JeffreyGator

2016-04-06, 03:56 PM

I would take one of the uncommon bardic instruments. There is a lot of versatility there.

Doss lute, Fochlucan bandore, Mac-Fuirmidh cittern are all uncommon.

They all give fly, invisibility, levitate, and protection from good and evil and are a focus for your spells.

If you are going to do the life cleric thing, I would at least think about magic initiate druid to add great berries as well.

Point Buy half-elf str 8 dex 14 con 13+1 int 9+1 wis 14 cha 14+2.

You have 2 bard, 3 cleric, 2 druid cantrips. You get 10 skills and expertise in 2 of them. You have the versatility you need.

You give everyone in your party 2x4 pts of healing everyday at the start of the day to use on their own actions.

pixelG

2016-04-06, 04:45 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions, you guys gave me a bit to think about.
If anyone else would like to pitch in, I am still working on this build =)

krugaan

2016-04-06, 05:06 PM

bid

2016-04-06, 07:07 PM

With VHuman I will have these stats:
Str = 8
Wis = 13 req for cleric
Dex = 14
Con = 14 (12 + 1 racial + 1 Resilient)
Int = 10
Cha = 16 (15 + 1 racial)

As much as I would love to have 14 in wisdom that would mean losing the bonus from CON (concentration checks) or DEX (Initiative rolls) and I couldn't find a workaround to maximize the stat. What would you suggest?
If you move your racial to Dex, you can reach Str8 Dex14 Con14 Int9 Wis14 Cha16.

Resilient (Con) might be premature, I don't know if you have a nice concentration spell to keep up and medium armor AC is good enough that you won't get hit that often. You could start with inspiring leader which has a bigger impact early game (too bad for Wis13).

Keep an expertise for athletics, that's enough to make you a grappler.

Assuming any/all fit with your RP concept.

Grod_The_Giant

2016-04-06, 08:03 PM

Resilient (Con) might be premature, I don't know if you have a nice concentration spell to keep up and medium armor AC is good enough that you won't get hit that often. You could start with inspiring leader which has a bigger impact early game (too bad for Wis13).
I second this, aye. Your party will love you for it; probably more effective than any healing magic at low levels, and not terrible even later.

Specter

2016-04-07, 08:32 AM

- Use your Expertise on Insight and Persuasion/Deception to become the party's social face. You can do this better than anyone in the group.

- If you plan to use a shield AND a weapon (which you shouldn't), you will need War Caster.

- With your average stats, Cloak of Protection really sounds like the best choice for an item. That, or an uncommon Instrument of the Bards.

- What Cleric domain did you pick? That could change things a bit. I would recommend Life, if you're the dedicated healer of the party, or Light.

- As for the feat, you could go Resilient (CON) or Inspiring Leader just for roleplay kicks.

pixelG

2016-04-07, 12:51 PM

- Use your Expertise on Insight and Persuasion/Deception to become the party's social face. You can do this better than anyone in the group.
- If you plan to use a shield AND a weapon (which you shouldn't), you will need War Caster.

Yes, I am planning to use a shield (having the possibility thanks to the cleric dip, why not?) and NO weapon, just an instrument or the component pouch (depending on how I will develop my background). I thought that being a supporter/healer I should keep my distance from the front line

[B]
- With your average stats, Cloak of Protection really sounds like the best choice for an item. That, or an uncommon Instrument of the Bards.

At the beginning I was leaning towards the 'Bag of Tricks', but now looking at the uncommon bard instrument I can see their utility (even though is only 1 spell per day) especially because of the disadvantage they apply to resist all my spells

[B]
- What Cleric domain did you pick? That could change things a bit. I would recommend Life, if you're the dedicated healer of the party, or Light.

I was thinking that Life would be a great choice (being the only healer in the party) but I will take a look at Light as well, thanks for the suggestion. Any particular thing I should be on the lookout in the Light domain? (like for example the combo of the Life domain with healing spells like goodberry and aura of healing ;))

[B]
- As for the feat, you could go Resilient (CON) or Inspiring Leader just for roleplay kicks.

I am still thinking that Resilient (CON) would be better than Inspiring Leader seeing that THP cannot be added if reapplied, and once lost cannot be healed back (Temporary --> duuuuh!)

Thanks again, it is great to have this much feedback from other players =)

SharkForce

2016-04-07, 12:59 PM

SliceandDiceKid

2016-04-07, 01:44 PM

Disagree, though they're both great. Resilient gets stronger as the game progresses, because the bonus gets better, AND you start fighting some really nasty Con saves after level 5 or so. Warcaster is generally just advantage on concentration, although with that much AC, being in the front lines and abusing the casting spells on opportunity attacks may be nice synergy.

@ OP: Build and stats seem fine. It's hard to go wrong with Variant Human or Half Elf, and life cleric for extra AC is always a solid dip (although the heal bonus is sort of overrated, except in very specific spell combinations like Goodberry and Aura of Vitality).

Life cleric+goodberry doesn't work

SharkForce

2016-04-07, 02:13 PM

Life cleric+goodberry doesn't work

it actually does, according to a dev clarification.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-august-2015

2nd to last question.

(personally, i don't think it *should* work, but that's the official rule for those that care about such things).

SliceandDiceKid

2016-04-07, 02:42 PM

it actually does, according to a dev clarification.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-august-2015

2nd to last question.

(personally, i don't think it *should* work, but that's the official rule for those that care about such things).

Wow that's messed up. Thanks for that, though. Pardon me while I go vomit.

pixelG

2016-04-07, 05:08 PM

bardic instruments give far more than one spell. you can use it once per day *per spell* actually.

which means it's 7-8 spells per day, depending which you get.

also, it's only disadvantage on spells that charm the target. that's a pretty selection of spells when we're talking about the bard list. but it definitely isn't all of them.

That makes them MUCH more interesting... Is there a list of all the spell that 'charm' the target? If not, would you consider "Vicious Mockery" or "Dissonant Whispers" as charming spells?

CaptAl

2016-04-07, 05:57 PM

Snip

I'm currently running this same build idea. Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard X. Medium armor and shield works great as long as you don't get up in the baddies face too often. I went V. Human with inspiring leader for the temp HP. It doesn't seem like much, but healing people before they ever get hit is amazing. The extra healing from life domain doesn't really start to shine unless you pick up Aura of Vitality as a magical secret, but damn does it work well if you do.

Solid build that works as an awesome support caster from early on. I second the Bardic Instrument, and highly recommend bumping CHA ASAP. More cutting words along with higher DCs and disadvantage on a good chunk of your spell list from the instrument is spectacular.

Cybren

2016-04-07, 07:26 PM

That makes them MUCH more interesting... Is there a list of all the spell that 'charm' the target? If not, would you consider "Vicious Mockery" or "Dissonant Whispers" as charming spells?
The spell description mentions giving the charmed condition.

It works with hypnotic pattern, which is sweet. I don't know if it's necessarily overpowered but it might be given the whole package

SharkForce

2016-04-07, 10:39 PM

The spell description mentions giving the charmed condition.

It works with hypnotic pattern, which is sweet. I don't know if it's necessarily overpowered but it might be given the whole package

at level 5, hypnotic pattern with the enemy saving at disadvantage is almost certainly overpowered except against enemies immune to charm.

but yes, a spell will tell you if it applies the charm condition. the real question is whether or not, say, suggestion (which won't work on things immune to charm iirc, but does not actually apply the charmed condition) would count.

djreynolds

2016-04-08, 12:45 AM

I'm unsure how it works with bard, but life cleric dip could add some extra healing to your spells like healing word and get you heavy armor if you could stomach putting a 15 in strength, or just go Hill Dwarf valor bard/life cleric

Cybren

2016-04-08, 01:51 PM

at level 5, hypnotic pattern with the enemy saving at disadvantage is almost certainly overpowered except against enemies immune to charm.

but yes, a spell will tell you if it applies the charm condition. the real question is whether or not, say, suggestion (which won't work on things immune to charm iirc, but does not actually apply the charmed condition) would count.

I am a bard in this exact situation at level 5. It's overpowered exactly in the way that it sounds. In situations where hypnotic pattern is good, it's now amazing. In situations where it is bad, it is still bad. (In some of the medium situations it's now good. Like vs a single target with an okay will save, it was a hail mary but suddenly it's a reliable time stop)

PeteNutButter

2016-04-08, 03:37 PM

Ashrym

2016-04-08, 03:40 PM

I think the charmed spells are: animal frienship, charm person, crown of madness, dominate monster, dominate person, geas, hypnotic pattern, and modify memory.

I could easily miss something.

I think hypnotic pattern and dominate monster are where the big synergy comes in to play but they also play well with spell glyphs. Playing the instrument of the bards takes two hands so costs the shield bonus mentioned in the OP.

It's not true that a feat is required for weapon and shield combat. The rules allow storing the weapon for free to allow for the required free hand and then casting the spell (need a component pouch too), and then drawing the weapon before attacking on a subsequent round for free. It costs holding the weapon for an opportunity attack should the opportunity arise.

Inspiring leader or healer feats are awesome for low level healing and going with the life cleric splash opens up heavy armor master as an option worth considering.

I prefer variant human for the bonus feat. I would skip war caster, take resilient CON, and healer if I were following your proposed bard 4 / cleric 1 and instrument of the bards sounds good but since you need to stow two items and draw the instrument for two hands use you would want to either give up the shield or leave it stowed by default for use when needed. Otherwise you would have a delay in casting the spell for which you use it as a focus / item spell.

A typical bard focus doesn't work well with S&B or TWF so frequently using that save disadvantage benefit means a THW or versatile weapon works better and is aimed more for an enchanted style of lore bard. The spell component pouch works better, imo, by using the stow and swap method with shields or TWF.

Cleric is a nice splash for a bard regardless and life cleric is solid.

I think the instrument of the bards was oversold based on the synergy above without full disclosure on the downsides and what to expect.

Hope that helps.

pixelG

2016-04-08, 04:10 PM

Best healer in the game right there.

Why medium armor? Is that an RP preference?

Heavy Armor could serve you better, with +1 AC in the long run. Life cleric gives you proficiency. No drawback really, except dumping dex instead of str. Jack of All Trades makes up for that though.

Could go 15, 10, 16, 8, 10, 16. V Human with con resilient. Lots of concentration, lots of hp, and an AC that'll be the envy of the party.

I don't understand how you can play that array with the cleric 1 / bard x, it seems like you missed something or I didn't understand your idea:
STR 15 (for heavy armor)
DEX 10 (dump stat instead of STR)
CON 16 (lots of HPs as you said)
INT 8 (malus in INT? ok, I suppose)
WIS 10 (doesn't meet the cleric requirements)
CHA 16 (main stat)

PeteNutButter

2016-04-08, 04:16 PM

I don't understand how you can play that array with the cleric 1 / bard x, it seems like you missed something or I didn't understand your idea:
STR 15 (for heavy armor)
DEX 10 (dump stat instead of STR)
CON 16 (lots of HPs as you said)
INT 8 (malus in INT? ok, I suppose)
WIS 10 (doesn't meet the cleric requirements)
CHA 16 (main stat)

Bah my bad. You'd have to go 15, 8, 14, 8, 13, 16

Racial boost to str and cha, resilient con.

5e really provides no incentive to not completely DUMP your off stats, especially when you need an extra stat due to MC.

pixelG

2016-04-08, 04:30 PM

Snip
Hope that helps.

I am not planning to use a weapon at all. I will have one possibly always sheathed.
My question at this point is: Can I freely cast (using the bard instrument) while wielding the shield or that's allowed only if I use the 'Components pouch?". What would be a typical way of fighting of the bard?
e.g.
1) use instrument to cast
2) put away instrument get shield for when receiving attacks
3) put away shield, play instrument...

Ashrym

2016-04-08, 07:12 PM

I am not planning to use a weapon at all. I will have one possibly always sheathed.
My question at this point is: Can I freely cast (using the bard instrument) while wielding the shield or that's allowed only if I use the 'Components pouch?". What would be a typical way of fighting of the bard?
e.g.
1) use instrument to cast
2) put away instrument get shield for when receiving attacks
3) put away shield, play instrument...

If you have a spell component pouch and a shield with no weapon you can cast to your heart's content while keeping the shield up. Playing the instrument takes 2 hands so you would store the shield and not have it's benefits during the spell casting.

If you already have the instrument held in your other hand to carry it then technically you could store and then equip the shield again as long as you keep holding the instrument. The rule is storing and grabbing the item for free as part of an action but there isn't anything restricting that to 2 different items.

bid

2016-04-08, 09:05 PM

Playing the instrument takes 2 hands so you would store the shield and not have its benefits during the spell casting.
Excuse me, but is there anywhere in RAW that states you need 2 hands? I know it's pretty much impossible to play a lute with a single hand in real life, but every spell requires but a single free hand and there doesn't seem to be any exception for musical instrument or other focus.

SharkForce

2016-04-08, 10:34 PM

If you have a spell component pouch and a shield with no weapon you can cast to your heart's content while keeping the shield up. Playing the instrument takes 2 hands so you would store the shield and not have it's benefits during the spell casting.

If you already have the instrument held in your other hand to carry it then technically you could store and then equip the shield again as long as you keep holding the instrument. The rule is storing and grabbing the item for free as part of an action but there isn't anything restricting that to 2 different items.

shields are a full action to equip or unequip, unfortunately.

Drackolus

2016-04-08, 10:52 PM

I'm gonna throw the odd opinion of hill dwarf life/lore. You won't really need a spectacular wisdom, but you'd want 15 strength... for the sole purpose of heavy armor, which you have proficiency for. If you're a dwarf, you don't have to worry about it. Lets you pump more points into con, cha, and wis. Inspiring Leader becomes a nice choice too.

Of course, if you really don't care about your ac, anyone with the proficiencies can wear ring mail and use a shield, netting 16 ac with no stats required.

Isk

2016-04-08, 11:45 PM

I play a level 5 Lore Bard who acts as the main healer for the group and can offer some insight into what you might want from your character.

I HIGHLY recommend you think about what you're going to be doing every round. I'd recommend finding a way to get the eldrich blast cantrip from warlock or to play a valor bard and use a ranged weapon. Vicious mockery is one of the most overrated cantrips in the game, and it gets worse as you level up. At very low levels giving disadvantage on an attack was decent, it was especially effective against a giant who's attacks did a tonn of damage. However, it's around level 3+ where it starts wearing on you and you realize you need to start using something else.

If a monster has 2 attacks per round vicious mockery only effects the first attack, plus if you're fighting 5 baddies giving disadvantage on one attack doesn't do much and the d4 damage is pitiful. Your group mates will be doing 20 damage per round, you'll be rolling a d4 for an average of 2.5 damage, if you're resisted half the time that's an average of 1 damage per round. Longer encounters means the party will take more damage, you'll need to heal more, and cutting distraction and spells are limited resources.

Playing a bard as a healer will mean you'll want to save your spells for healing, meaning you'll want a strong cantrip to spam or a good weapon attack every round.

I'd suggest level 2 warlock/x bard as a lore bard giving you eldrich blast if you're into heavy damage. At level 5 it's 2 attacks doing d10+cha modifier damage with the right invocation. Otherwise go valor bard and use a bow.

If you're mainly interested in support lore then bard is superior to valor. Cutting distraction prevents a tonn of damage, more damage then 1 level in cleric will give you in healing to put it in perspective. I also wouldn't use a shield and forget about warcaster, I found it easy to stay ranged and am almost never threatened in our adventures. As an arcane caster you need to have one hand free so you can't use a weapon + shield and still cast without a feat. I would focus more on support/damage then your own personal defense.

For your ability scores if you end up pumping up str your spells will be resisted more often, maxing cha is mandatory as a bard and pumping dex and using light armor is good if you're going to use a ranged weapon. If you're thinking of going melee with str; you'll need a high str, con and cha meaning you'll be spread thin (con for concentration saves). Going ranged means you prioritize cha and dex because con won't be as important because you'll be attacked less.

Citan

2016-04-09, 03:40 AM

I play a level 5 Lore Bard who acts as the main healer for the group and can offer some insight into what you might want from your character.

I HIGHLY recommend you think about what you're going to be doing every round. I'd recommend finding a way to get the eldrich blast cantrip from warlock or to play a valor bard and use a ranged weapon. Vicious mockery is one of the most overrated cantrips in the game, and it gets worse as you level up. At very low levels giving disadvantage on an attack was decent, it was especially effective against a giant who's attacks did a tonn of damage. However, it's around level 3+ where it starts wearing on you and you realize you need to start using something else.

Sorry I did not quote the whole post (too long and just above anyways), but I must say this is by far the most sound advice of the whole thread. :)

Just a note, I wouldn't recommend dip unless there is a specific goal in mind. I'd rather suggest Magic Initiate in Warlock for Booming Blade + Eldricht Blast + Hex IF OP really wants to up his damage (best choice if Warcaster comes later).
Or Spell Sniper with...
- Eldricht Blast if you favor "more chances to hit)
- any other ranged attack if you want a rider (Ray of Frost being my favorite, Chill Touch being also very nice in some builds for the riders in spite of having the worst damage type)...
- any "save" attack, although very few choice then: only Frostbite (Constitution), Create Bonfire or Acid Splash (Dexterity). (EDIT: Just remembered that you can only learn cantrips with attack rolls, which is pretty logical after all. XD)

That way, you don't hamper the spellcasting progression and you don't "waste" Magic Secrets either.
Sure, the Agonizing and Repelling invocations are nice. But unless player starts with very high CHA or is sure that he prefer very strong base cantrip over full spellcasting, I'd say keeping "pure" is the better choice here.

pixelG

2016-04-09, 06:00 AM

[...] Booming Blade [...]

We are not playing with Sword Coast Adventure Guide, so no booming blade =)

pixelG

2016-04-09, 06:14 AM

I play a level 5 Lore Bard who acts as the main healer for the group and can offer some insight into what you might want from your character.

To be honest my favorite choice would be this. first 3 lvl in Bard lore and then 2 lvl dip in Warlock for the EB cantrip goodness.
The party has now changed in:
Barbarian, Ranger (picking up magic initiate druid for goodberries), wizard and bard (myself)
I am worried that we are going to have problems without proper healing, that's why I was thinking to go 1 lvl dip in life cleric.
If the bard can be a good healer without that dip, then I would favor the dip in warlock for more damage.

What is your opinion on this?

Note: We are just using the Player's Handbook for classes/spells/etc

Isk

2016-04-09, 06:51 AM

We play in a large group, we have: Palladin (defender type), Warlock, Swashbuckler, Mage, Druid and me as the healer.

Early on I almost never had to heal, and even the palladin didn't need to use lay on hands. The way it works for us in practice is our DM says if he hits (he makes private rolls) and then I ask if it's close, if it's close I use cutting distraction and usually force a miss. I have an 18 CHA so I get to use it 4 times a day, so say a monster does 10 damage a hit then I mitigate 40 damage every day or so.

Around level 4 the encounters seemed a lot longer (monsters had more hp and we didn't have our boost in damage from hitting level 5) so I felt a bit stretched to heal the group, the paladin and druid both starting using healing. At 5 with our party's damage should increase so I'm expecting it to be better.

I prefer doing damage myself so plan on going warlock 2/bard x. Remember too that going 2 warlock gives you more 1st level spells, and you can use your warlock slots to cast healing word. At level 5 you'll have 7 first level spells and 2 second level spells, and 3 of your first level spells (the warlock ones) will refresh with a short rest. So if you use healing word use up the warlock slots first and you'll get those slots back if you take a short rest. You'll have a lot of casts (almost double a full 5 bard with a short rest) but your spellcasting ability will definitely take a hit, you'll delay getting magic secrets so won't be able to grab stuff like counterspell until later and healing word will be weaker then if you used a second or third slot.

Playing a bard as a healer is about damage mitigation rather then healing the damage the party takes. If you're concerned about healing the party then definitely go lore bard, cutting distraction is amazing and a valor bard will have a harder time.

P.S. - if your ranger is taking magic initiate just for goodberries then I'd say that's a waste. Song of rest is really good, and our DM limits our short rests. The spending hit dice to heal yourself during a short rest mechanic in 5e combined with song of rest will make getting the group to max hp very easy. It will be during a difficult encounter when the damage is spread between party members where life cleric would be helpful, and goodberries won't help in that situation. If he wants to help with a good first level spell then I'd suggest healing word or cure wounds to him, with my personal preference being healing word. It's a bonus action to use, so he can continue doing damage but still help if the need is great, like healing you if you drop to 0 hps.

Citan

2016-04-09, 07:06 AM

To be honest my favorite choice would be this. first 3 lvl in Bard lore and then 2 lvl dip in Warlock for the EB cantrip goodness.
The party has now changed in:
Barbarian, Ranger (picking up magic initiate druid for goodberries), wizard and bard (myself)
I am worried that we are going to have problems without proper healing, that's why I was thinking to go 1 lvl dip in life cleric.
If the bard can be a good healer without that dip, then I would favor the dip in warlock for more damage.

What is your opinion on this?

Note: We are just using the Player's Handbook for classes/spells/etc
Hi again. ;)

Well, if you're set on Warlock 2 / Bard 3 go for it... But I'd stress again that it's not necessarily the best choice because...
- Unless you have very high CHA and only passable to decent DEX, your EB will certainly be good damage, but not up to the point of justifying 2 levels dips just for this over using a ranged weapon (it will once you get lvl 11 character though).
- You don't get access to lvl 3 Bard spells yet, among which many good ones. And you're 3 levels away from very good spells such as Aura of Life, Conjure Animals, Slow...
Making this a very good option in the long run, but with a significant cost nevertheless.

So I'd say favor the Warlock / Bard combo if your main role will be "steady damage contribution" or you start with very unequal stats. Otherwise, using a ranged weapon or a feat is a viable alternative (for the start of your campaign).

Another option if your DM accepts would be to pick a cantrip at Magic Secrets 6 to have something good during levels 6-10 without hampering your progression, take Warlock dip on character lvl 10/11 (after Bard 9 so you get lvl 5 spells) then take your 10th Bard level and swap the now redundant "Magic Secret Eldricht Blast" with any other of lvl 3 max, at the same time that you pick two new Magic Secrets of lvl 5 max (Circle of Power? Swift Quiver? Cloudkill? Dream?). This means you keep your progression up to 8 and don't need feats so you can max your CHA first.

As for the Life Cleric, it brings great value, especially if paired with poached Aura of Life. But it's not "required" at all. Most of the healing you will do in combat will be Healing Words, and the extra HP will generally not change the fate of your pal...
If you bring him and he gets striked again just after, having recovered 11 HP instead of 8 will not make any difference once any monster you face can hit for >10/turn, which should be already true at lvl 5. So basically, what will make Healing Words effective is not its sheer power but how you put it into play. :)

So, don't fret about this, at least for starters. You can always consider the option at later levels if you feel your party is lacking.
If any, I'd say it's the ranger that should make the dip in Life Cleric, since the bonus affects each Goodberry (so 40 HP total), once he got his extra attack.

Isk

2016-04-09, 07:36 AM

Oh, here's a thread I made asking similar questions to you that you might find helpful:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478183-Bard-Multiclass-Help-plus-rules-questions&highlight=bard

There's plenty of good advice in there.

Citan

2016-04-09, 08:50 AM

Hey, me again, thought about something. :)

If your DM can bend rules a bit, another way to go could be simply to adapt Vicious Mockery so that it increases in power with level as most other cantrips.
Several ways to go...

1. Upgrade the flat damage
Add "spellcasting modifier" at each step instead of increasing the number of die.
Would be strong because it's consistent damage (your looking at 1d4+15 at lvl 20 with max CHA) but with 16 average damage it would be just on par with other cantrips inflicting a debuff.

2. Increase the die range
Along with die number (1/2/3/4) make the die size increase each step (4/6/8/10): this ends at 4d10 which is better than Firebolt (since you get the added rider in comparison) but far from being gamebreaking and much less consistent than the previous solution.

3. Increase the rider
At lvl 5 make if affects two consecutive attacks against the same target. At lvl 11 if affects any two consecutive attacks. At lvl 17 if affects any three consecutive attacks.

Or try a mix-and-match of these suggestions although it becomes difficult to balance.
If I had to homebrew I would probably either keep the third option as is, because it becomes strong enough to be interesting to use while keeping true to the "Bard spirit".

Or if people feel it's still too lacking in damage, design something like this:
lvl 5: you add spellcasting modifier to damage.
lvl 11: disadvantage on any next two consecutive attacks.
lvl 17: any three consecutive attacks.

This means that you can output a bit of damage if really needed, close enough to other cantrips in average damage (4*2,5+5=15) while having low enough max damage (21) in comparison to compensate the added "disadvantage rider".

And this makes the cantrip still useful at higher levels against enemies with multiple attacks while not tip-toeing on Chill Touch cantrip (disadvantage on all attacks against a single target from lvl 1) and other control spells/abilities.

What do you say? :=)

pixelG

2016-04-09, 09:42 AM

Hey, me again, thought about something. :)

What do you say? :=)

I'd say that while these are great ideas (and I thank you for spending time in writing them =) ), I don't know how I feel about that.
The group is pretty new, so I don't want to push the DM in houseruling things and be 'that guy', at the same time I am not a fan of houserules. I abide by them if the DM is proposing them, otherwise I favor the mild min-max from vanilla.

As for now my indecision is to go full bard 5th level, play the first adventure and see how the group behave and then make my decisions upon that, or go directly warlock 2 / bard x for the EB damage and power-ups (like agonizing blast).

While Magic Initiate warlock could be a solution, I still think it will be a waste of a feat, since EB won't get the bonus from CHA or the invocations.

We are going for a 27 point buy so no surprise rolls AND we are starting from 5th lvl! =)

Isk

2016-04-09, 11:56 AM

pixelG

2016-04-09, 01:02 PM

Those both seem like prudent choices. I'd base the decision on your playstyle, I prefer doing good damage so ended up going warlock. I ended up being a jack of all trades but good at everything! Agonizing blast from warlock means you'll do almost as much damage as the ranger, I took thieves tools proficiency from my background and pumped up my dex (which lead to a 16 dex), plus since I could rely on EB for damage I was able to take lots of utility spells.

Detect magic at-will is amazing too. There's no combat function, but normally it's a first level spell and while it's a ritual who has time to spend an hour casting a ritual in an adventure? Whenever I meet a new situation; bam! detect magic for free. It's super handy.

Agonizing Blast is a good invocation, but I think I could go Armor of Shadows for my second, so I can have Ac16 constantly =)

IN THE END:
2 warlock / X Bard (Lore)
VHuman with Resilient (CON)
Eldritch Blast + Agonizing for damage
Bard for support/ healing

Thanks to everyone, the character should be done at this point, but for sake of conversation (and because this can be helpful to others) we can still talk about this optimization if anyone is still interested.

Thanks to everyone!