Charging membership for group

[bullywug]

I've been DMing for over two years now. I've hosted the games in my home, supplied snacks, cleaned up before and after the games, arranged social outings, ran adventures, created handouts, incorporated player feedback, created maps for dungeons, etc. I've racked up well over a thousand dollars in costs ranging from software (like Fantasy Grounds), services (like D&D Insider, Epic Words, etc), and supplies like art paper, pencils, and toner.

I started to ask (voluntary) for players to contribute to the food costs ($5.00 per month) but after a few months one guy stopped paying and said he'd bring his own food (of course, the $5 was dependent on everyone contributing. Food costs don't significantly decrease just because one person doesn't eat) Then other players quietly stopped paying. I repeatedly politely reminded everyone that I was absorbing the cost of the food but only one guy chipped in.

I've disbanded the group because I'm starting an internship and I don't have time right now to spare. When I reform the group in the fall I intend to require a membership fee if people want to play. Something on the order of $10 to $15 per month. This would allow me to create cool content for the players and prevent me from feeling like I'm the only one who cares about the quality of the content in the game. One of the players from the old group told me that he'd not pay because he doesn't care about visual aids. I told him that was part of how I DM'd and it was what made running the game enjoyable to me. I pointed out that he received 5 hours a week of free entertainment and that if this was a sports team or most other group activities there would be costs associated with membership.

So here's what I'm wondering, based on what I've said here what are your thoughts? Specifically, I'm looking for justification on why players think that the DM should buy all the books, subscribe to all the services, and feed them on a weekly basis and not expect to be compensated. Constructive feedback is welcome and appreciated.

[Mr.Moron]

As potential player:

This would be off putting if put forward by a "friend". This would seem like a curious service that while a cool idea isn't for me, if I saw ads for it a store for somebody doing this with strangers.

My personal spin on being a GM:
If I want to play with people they aren't the sort of people I want to charge money. If I feel like giving them snacks I will give them snacks. If I feel like making complicated visual aids, I'll do so because I want to and out of my own pocket. Everything and Anything I do when engaging with a hobby, like GMing I down for my own entrainment and because I find value in it.

[KorvinStarmast]

You are under no obligation to feed your players.

If these "friends" of yours can't be bothered to show up with snacks when you host the game ... consider who your friends are.

Most friendships include a bit of quid pro quo. Without going into an extended essay in interpersonal relationships, some people are givers and some are takers.

In your case, whatever you do as a DM that makes it fun for you, do. It's a hobby.

Make sure when the next game begins that you point out that food and snacks are on them when you host the game at your place. Make that clear up front.

Sometimes, people just need to know what the terms are.

[krugaan]

Pretty much what Mr. Moron said.

Do your friends do things for you in areas other than DnD? If not, ask them for favors.

Putting a price tag on things among friends is almost always a bad idea. If you ask for favors instead, both parties have a chance to feel good.

[busterswd]

First, let's start off with a somewhat devil's advocate argument:

I would imagine people wouldn't want to pay for the same reason they wouldn't expect to pay to attend someone's birthday/slumber/whatever party. To them, it's a casual social event that they could take or leave.

Unless the financial costs were really crippling, I wouldn't expect my friends to pay for a DnD session I hosted. And if they were, I would look for a way to reduce the cost, instead of trying to have them foot the bill (in this case, for starters, I'd stop providing food if it was that much of an issue). You've also expressed that a lot of the cost for your sessions stems from *your* enjoyment for better tools, not theirs, so why should they have to pay for it?



That being said, IF I asked my friends to pitch in a couple of bucks, especially for food, I can't imagine anyone would balk unless they were caught short on one day. And of course, all of the above changes if they're aren't really your friends, but more a group of guys who asked you to DM for them.

You're going to run into trouble, either way, by switching from a free to play to a pay to play. Just ask Wizards/AL Coordinators. Once people have come to expect something for free (and can get it free from a variety of other places), getting even a couple bucks out of them is like pulling teeth.

[Ruslan]

Personally, I wouldn't charge a membership fee. This is, to me, something outside the scope of a fun game you play with friends.

However, other steps can be taken that are more reasonable.
1. Cleanup duty: one player remains after the game to help the DM to clean up. Compensate the player by chatting with him amicably during the cleanup, possibly revealing "behing the scenes" insights about the game and the world. If you play it right, players might actually want to stay and help cleanup.
1a. Prep duty: same as above, someone comes in early to help set up.
2. Food duty: either everyone chips in, or everyone brings his own food. In fact, since the DM is carrying a brunt of the workload, some groups find "everyone but the DM chips in" acceptable.

Follow a three-stage process: (1) Set those rules during session zero (2) Get a buy-in from the players, and (3) Enforce them.

As for being compensated for buying all the books, that's a non-sequitur. Okay, you are carrying an extra cost because you have to buy the DMG and MM (and they have to only buy the PHB), but the DMG and MM stay with you. They are your property. When you disbanded the group, you kept the books with you, right, you didn't divide them between the players? The group does not collectively own the DMG and MM, so they should not pay for them.

[DMBlackhart]

I've been DMing for over two years now. I've hosted the games in my home, supplied snacks, cleaned up before and after the games, arranged social outings, ran adventures, created handouts, incorporated player feedback, created maps for dungeons, etc. I've racked up well over a thousand dollars in costs ranging from software (like Fantasy Grounds), services (like D&D Insider, Epic Words, etc), and supplies like art paper, pencils, and toner.

Emphasis mine. I've been at this since AD&D and I do not believe I have yet spent 100$ on misc. Supplies. The books yeah, but those are a requirement of the hobby. Minis sure, but I like to collect and that's on my dime. Man, what are you buying man? A pack of pencils is cheap, like I can make a 1$ pack from the Dollar Tree last me a month at least, even with sharing (and I often have to supply my players).


I started to ask (voluntary) for players to contribute to the food costs ($5.00 per month) but after a few months one guy stopped paying and said he'd bring his own food (of course, the $5 was dependent on everyone contributing. Food costs don't significantly decrease just because one person doesn't eat) Then other players quietly stopped paying. I repeatedly politely reminded everyone that I was absorbing the cost of the food but only one guy chipped in.
Actually, it does. Unless you're not being smart with your money and buying the same 2 extra large 3 topping pizzas even when less people are paying. In Which case just don't pay for food, if complaints start ask your players to pay for food once in awhile, if they don't want to do as I do and tell them to eat before or after the game, or go home in the middle and eat, but we will happily continue in their absence.

So far, no problems.


I've disbanded the group because I'm starting an internship and I don't have time right now to spare. When I reform the group in the fall I intend to require a membership fee if people want to play. Something on the order of $10 to $15 per month. This would allow me to create cool content for the players and prevent me from feeling like I'm the only one who cares about the quality of the content in the game. One of the players from the old group told me that he'd not pay because he doesn't care about visual aids. I told him that was part of how I DM'd and it was what made running the game enjoyable to me. I pointed out that he received 5 hours a week of free entertainment and that if this was a sports team or most other group activities there would be costs associated with membership.

In Order of Bolded points, here are my thoughts.
1. Just, no... no. Unless you produce quality and content that exceeds that of the published works, AND have never once been given a bad remark by a player or ever given some one reason to think there's better ways to spend their time, you just aren't worth it. I'm sorry, it's the sad truth. Feel Underappreciated, we all do at times, it will pass.
2. That's crazy even if you COULD manage to get people to agree to pay. 5$ max honestly. 4-5 players means you have the nescessary funds for all the needs in a monthly span. Food (if you're smart with your money), and supplies.
3. No, it would allow you to feel better about yourself creating cool content. I create and have always created amazing adventures for my friends since my childhood and never charged a dime. I dont see how a fee suddenly equates to better content.
4. I am sure they care plenty. But like all HOBBIES, which this is, it is a hobby; Some people show different levels of investment. You scream of the kind of person who would go and buy 1000 worth of painters supplies once he found out he loved painting, but before he realized he didn't need anything more than construction paper and finger paints to enjoy the hobby.
5. Doesnt matter if that is how you DM. How I DM incurs virtually no costs, but if it did (and it could if I felt like utilizing more expensive equipment), I wouldnt charge the others. I CHOOSE to DM. I CHOOSE to enjoy this facet of the hobby, I CHOOSE to invest in this hobby of my own free will and expense. You don't charge your friends, if they are your friends, because you share similar enjoyments as them. I don't go, rent a movie, buy popcorn, buy soda, and tell my friends I'm having a movie night than charge them for admission. I mean come on, enjoy your friends man, that's all there is to it.
6. It's great that DMing in that specific way to incur those costs is what brings you enjoyment. No sarcasm, I am genuinely happy you know what you like as a DM. It took me way longer than 2 years to get to that point. But the matter still stands that, just because that's how YOU want to play Ball doesn't mean everyone else has to go and buy matching mits, uniforms, bats, cleets, etc. If you were professionally DMing (lolwot?) than I would see the need to charge membership, but this is nothing warranting such a rediculous decision.
7. 5 Hours of free entertainment? And what do YOU get out of it, 5 hours a week extra on your timesheet at work? Mm no, you get free entertainment too. Whatever costs you choose to associate within that hobby is on you buddy, not them. They arent DEMANDING food, they arent DEMANDING programs or supplies. If they ARE, than your friends are A-holes and need to be left high and dry to buy their own things. Play the game on a thin sheet of paper, with shi- ee graph paper, and a single pencil and one set of dice. It's possible, believe me. And if they REALLY enjoy the game, they wont gripe.


So here's what I'm wondering, based on what I've said here what are your thoughts? Specifically, I'm looking for justification on why players think that the DM should buy all the books, subscribe to all the services, and feed them on a weekly basis and not expect to be compensated. Constructive feedback is welcome and appreciated.

The DM SHOULDN'T buy all the books, or subscribe to ANY services, or feed anyone. And from the sounds of it you are CHOOSING to do these things. If I am wrong I apologize, but I don't believe your players are saying "Do all these things or we wont play nyeh!".

And if they are, get a new group, don't charge them man. You'll hate it an equal amount.

There, my 2 pence.

[krugaan]

.
1. Just, no... no. Unless you produce quality and content that exceeds that of the published works, AND have never once been given a bad remark by a player or ever given some one reason to think there's better ways to spend their time, you just aren't worth it. I'm sorry, it's the sad truth. Feel Underappreciated, we all do at times, it will pass.

This, more than anything else. Money changing hands tends to imply a sort of contract, which is never a good thing among friends.


There, my 2 pence.

Man, everything is about money with you people!

[CoggieRagabash]

IMHO, the DM is fully within rights to ask the group to help shoulder the costs of any books, materials (minis, stuff for maps, etc), or services (that is, membership fees to sites the group utilizes during play, things like that). That's just reasonable. It's also reasonable to ask the group to supply food. Maybe swap off on who brings dinner / snacks, or chip in to buy whatever.

But putting a price on your time and involvement is going to be a bitter pill to swallow since this is supposed to be something you are all enjoying as friends. The DM's job is definitely the hardest one, but the way your players should repay you is with a good time shared, showing up on time, being prepared, and providing you with as fun an experience as you provide them. If they're not upholding their end of the bargain as good players, or you just don't find it enjoyable enough without compensation, this probably isn't how you should be spending time with friends to be entirely honest. That's not a judgement of any sort, just an observation that this game is pretend fun times and if it isn't fun then you have to change what you're doing because you deserve to enjoy your hobbies.

[wunderkid]

Another angle to look at is travel costs, this has effected me personally, because I live a little more out in the sticks my journey to and from where we play will cost me about £7 in petrol. If the gm then wanted to start charging me as well I'd be a little irritated.

Food I'll gladly bring for myself if I'm hungry, same with drinks, and help set up/clear up but when an obligatory sum of money is requested for no real reason (in my experience being a gm isn't a hardship, some people enjoy being a player some enjoy Gm'ing it's only your personal preference of spending money to improve the quality of the game that is a factor here). If you wish to spend money on software or resources ask the players beforehand, if its something they like then get them to all chip in before spending money, but when you do it off your own back without consulting the players that's your passion and decision. it isn't fair to force that on your players who may be perfectly happy without all these expenses.

Obviously if all your players live around the corner and 'expect' food and drink and don't want to pay at all but still want the resources you're providing it's a different story. But I'd flat out refuse to take part in a game where I'm paying for the privilege of rolling dice and start running my own free one.

Edit: regarding the costs for the books, at best I'd ask for a deposit towards the cost of them that the players would get back once the campaign finished assuming the books were treated well and not damaged. After all you get to walk away with them once it's done.

[kaoskonfety]

We do a bit of a dinner party as part of our games and "who is bringing/ paying" rotates, but as the usual host I still manage the bulk of the costs. This is fairly typical for most social gatherings.
I make my homes drink freely available, but the guy who is really into my soymilk brings dessert every week, and I'm talking 12" deep-dish cherry pie, new york style cheesecakes and similar.
One of them regularly brings just junk food week by week, but sticks to his junk food for the most part (and we leave him to it... mostly...).

I know I'm spending $10-40 everytime the game happens, some times signifigantly more if its near a 'food holiday' like thanksgiving, but its for a circle of my old friends. And they all do help out a bit. But I completely believe the $1000+ dollars a year. It adds up fast.

If you object to providing the sole supply and the group has rejected $5 a month or any sort of "I'll bring my own stuff/payment & supply rotation" - stop supplying or maybe make something very cheap (e.g. popcorn, kool-aid, tea) and leave everyone to their own devices otherwise.

As for charging for your time/DM-ing you are going to run into resistance. If you are D*** good you might swing it, but if you are having issues getting them to cough up $5 for food they are eating I'm doubting they are willing to pay another $5-10 for your time and effort (which I note: they cannot eat).

[Temperjoke]

I understand where you are coming from. I don't agree with your choice in dealing with it. If you're talking about books, figurines, maps, terrain, etc., I hate to break it to you, but if it something you keep when the game is over, then I am under no obligation to help you pay for it, even if it makes my game more enjoyable. What would happen if we didn't have those things? We would use our imaginations, or crude drawings, or improvise something. On the other hand, if you're talking about copies of blank character sheets, snacks, drinks, then it's fair to ask us to bring stuff to share, or coordinate with us on it.

From an outside view, you seem to be making yourself into an entertainment service, a professional DM for hire for groups looking for a DM. For a fee, they're getting a lot of features, knowledge, and services. Just don't be upset when you don't get any customers who want to pay for a premium service.

[Slipperychicken]

I'll just tell you what my group does. We're all poor college-kids (or recently graduated) and it works for us.


When we get food, the bill is either split evenly (in the case of shared food like a pizza), or each person pays for his own order (in the case of chinese food). If someone doesn't have cash right then, it's an IOU and next time he's expected to pay for whoever covered for him. We don't cook for each other enough for it to matter, but I know we offered to compensate the GM for some frozen pizza he brought over. I would never expect the GM to pay for everyone's food unless he was some kind of billionaire. That's just basic decency.

Most of my group uses digital books (all legally acquired of course :smallwink:), and between us we only have 2-3 physical copies of the core books, but we share them. We understand that if someone wants to get a physical copy for their own convenience at home, that's on them. If I want the GM to try out a new system, then I'll offer to chip in for it. Usually he says he'll cover it himself, but I believe I've helped pay for books at least once. I offer to chip in for things like adventure modules too. It's just not fair to make one person cover all those costs. If you want to be compensated for a significant expense like books, then ask people to chip in before you get it.

We don't pay subscriptions for things. That's just too much for a game of let's-pretend, you know? If my GM felt like he was paying a lot for some significant recurring cost that really helps the quality of the game? We might consider defraying that by paying for his share of the pizza. For a communal thing like gas money or markers, we'll all chip in. Someone can draw stuff all day, but he won't get paid back for a visual aid unless we worked that arrangement out in advance (and you'd have to be a real professional-quality illustrator to even consider asking your friends to buy it from you), and to my knowledge we've never done that. If my GM wanted to charge us a monthly fee, the group would (playfully) inform him where he can stick it. If he insisted, that would quickly erode the game's playful and friendly atmosphere and I'd consider not playing tabletop with him.

For cleaning up, that's a team effort. Usually the host will just ask us to tidy things up before we leave, and then we do that out of respect for the host. We all get rid of the garbage, wipe down the mats, put dirty dishes in the sink (though the host usually handles this himself), move the tables back if needed, and so on. Often we'll use that time to discuss things that happened during the session. Cleaning up after yourself is basic respect, and you should not be afraid to ask your friends to help you clean up.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You're perfectly within your rights to ask for help with food, one way or another. If there's a book/service a player wants that you don't really care about, it's fine to ask them to buy it, with the understanding that it's THEIR thing. (I'm imagining, say, someone buying Tome of Battle because he wants to play a Warblade.) If your PLAYERS want an expensive prop, asking to split the cost seems fair.

Everything else sounds, quite frankly, like elitist obnoxious bull****. I'd walk out on any GM that asked for that. If you enjoy making and using that $150 model castle, knock yourself out; just admit that you're spending the money for yourself. If the cost outstrips the benefit, cut back, just like any other personal hobby. Don't you DARE try to make your group pay for stuff they didn't ask for.

[Slipperychicken]

Everything else sounds, quite frankly, like elitist obnoxious bull****. I'd walk out on any GM that asked for that. If you enjoy making and using that $150 model castle, knock yourself out; just admit that you're spending the money for yourself. If the cost outstrips the benefit, cut back, just like any other personal hobby. Don't you DARE try to make your group pay for stuff they didn't ask for.

I gotta second this.

[DontEatRawHagis]

I've racked up well over a thousand dollars in costs ranging from software (like Fantasy Grounds), services (like D&D Insider, Epic Words, etc), and supplies like art paper, pencils, and toner.

I started to ask (voluntary) for players to contribute to the food costs ($5.00 per month) but after a few months one guy stopped paying and said he'd bring his own food (of course, the $5 was dependent on everyone contributing...

I've disbanded the group because I'm starting an internship and I don't have time right now to spare. When I reform the group in the fall I intend to require a membership fee if people want to play. Something on the order of $10 to $15 per month. This would allow me to create cool content for the players and prevent me from feeling like I'm the only one who cares about the quality of the content in the game.

One of the players from the old group told me that he'd not pay because he doesn't care about visual aids. I told him that was part of how I DM'd and it was what made running the game enjoyable to me. I pointed out that he received 5 hours a week of free entertainment and that if this was a sports team or most other group activities there would be costs associated with membership.

So here's what I'm wondering, based on what I've said here what are your thoughts? Specifically, I'm looking for justification on why players think that the DM should buy all the books, subscribe to all the services, and feed them on a weekly basis and not expect to be compensated. Constructive feedback is welcome and appreciated.

I've been in Organized Play groups that have asked for $2 a game in order to cover website hosting costs.

But for a home group this is a lot harder to do. You should probably ask your players first about putting in money to help cover costs of items like miniatures. Remind the players that you don't have an infinite budget for game and need help with covering costs. So if someone could bring Pencils next time around that would be great, ect...

It sounds like you are the only DM. Maybe allow another player to take the DM role.

If someone is you will want to give them a pass, but ask if they can help out around.

Lastly, you might want to re-evaluate your gaming budget. Especially if you are putting in a large amount of money every month for the hobby.

[JeffreyGator]

I have hosted and attended lots of games and splitting food costs has never been a big deal.

People were more than happy to pay $5 a piece when I was making food.

I am happy to bring $5 for when the host where I game makes food and understand and bring my own when he is too busy.

We all bring our own alcohol generally. (You definitely don't want to be reselling alcohol depending on your local laws probably).

Supplies copies etc I don't see paying for but everyone that I work with has access to printers at work or can print 35 pages/week in color at the local library for free.

Some people buy more books than others and have mini collection problems.

[Biggstick]

1. Just, no... no. Unless you produce quality and content that exceeds that of the published works, AND have never once been given a bad remark by a player or ever given some one reason to think there's better ways to spend their time, you just aren't worth it. I'm sorry, it's the sad truth. Feel Underappreciated, we all do at times, it will pass.
2. That's crazy even if you COULD manage to get people to agree to pay. 5$ max honestly. 4-5 players means you have the nescessary funds for all the needs in a monthly span. Food (if you're smart with your money), and supplies.
3. No, it would allow you to feel better about yourself creating cool content. I create and have always created amazing adventures for my friends since my childhood and never charged a dime. I dont see how a fee suddenly equates to better content.
4. I am sure they care plenty. But like all HOBBIES, which this is, it is a hobby; Some people show different levels of investment. You scream of the kind of person who would go and buy 1000 worth of painters supplies once he found out he loved painting, but before he realized he didn't need anything more than construction paper and finger paints to enjoy the hobby.
5. Doesnt matter if that is how you DM. How I DM incurs virtually no costs, but if it did (and it could if I felt like utilizing more expensive equipment), I wouldnt charge the others. I CHOOSE to DM. I CHOOSE to enjoy this facet of the hobby, I CHOOSE to invest in this hobby of my own free will and expense. You don't charge your friends, if they are your friends, because you share similar enjoyments as them. I don't go, rent a movie, buy popcorn, buy soda, and tell my friends I'm having a movie night than charge them for admission. I mean come on, enjoy your friends man, that's all there is to it.
6. It's great that DMing in that specific way to incur those costs is what brings you enjoyment. No sarcasm, I am genuinely happy you know what you like as a DM. It took me way longer than 2 years to get to that point. But the matter still stands that, just because that's how YOU want to play Ball doesn't mean everyone else has to go and buy matching mits, uniforms, bats, cleets, etc. If you were professionally DMing (lolwot?) than I would see the need to charge membership, but this is nothing warranting such a rediculous decision.
7. 5 Hours of free entertainment? And what do YOU get out of it, 5 hours a week extra on your timesheet at work? Mm no, you get free entertainment too. Whatever costs you choose to associate within that hobby is on you buddy, not them. They arent DEMANDING food, they arent DEMANDING programs or supplies. If they ARE, than your friends are A-holes and need to be left high and dry to buy their own things. Play the game on a thin sheet of paper, with shi- ee graph paper, and a single pencil and one set of dice. It's possible, believe me. And if they REALLY enjoy the game, they wont gripe.



The DM SHOULDN'T buy all the books, or subscribe to ANY services, or feed anyone. And from the sounds of it you are CHOOSING to do these things. If I am wrong I apologize, but I don't believe your players are saying "Do all these things or we wont play nyeh!".

And if they are, get a new group, don't charge them man. You'll hate it an equal amount.

There, my 2 pence.

First of all shout out to the 209 man. Didn't think anyone from back home played D&D.

Second of all I do think this DM who also happens to be hosting is totally fine to be charging 5-10$ a player a month. Lets go through your points.

1. The DM's I've played with (and it's quite a few) have all absolutely created better content then what's been put out by WOTC because they're invested in the stories their world is telling. The content is a lot more open to whatever they imagine, they aren't tied down to what the book has put out to them. A dragon can definitely appear overhead in their world because it's just that, it's their world. The bad comments part is something that I think isn't possible, and even multi billion dollar game companies are going to receive some sort of negativity; what really matters is how the OP responds to said negativity. A good DM is definitely worth 5-10$ a month.
2. If you're smart with your money? Unless you're cooking something up yourself (more time invested) being smart with your money is going to be buying fast food, and with the suggested amount of 5$, you're only going to have 25$, which isn't getting you much in terms of fast food (even less for healthy food) and drinks.
3. Charging a fee does get players more involved with the content as most would want to see what they're putting in money for. They're going to dig deeper because they "need to get their money's worth."
4. Is there anything wrong with wanting to spend money on your hobby? Just because we can use a pager or a pay phone doesn't mean we're going to. If this DM enjoys creating props or spending money to create a more immersive world, I'd definitely enjoy being a part of that.
5. You don't charge your friends? I have a couple friends who are professional photographers and I would never expect them to take pictures for me for free. With the amount of time that goes into DM'ing (as well as hosting, I definitely feel you on that one as I currently host a Sunday game twice a month and it gets expensive), getting a little compensation to even the costs out is something that would definitely be appreciated.
6. I mean, have you played in one of his games? Have you seen what his actual product is? Maybe he's putting out something that really does deserve to have a service charge attached to it. Regardless of if it's a hobby or not, it's a pretty big time investment. And yes, time is money.
7. I'll give you that, during the game, the DM should be entertained just as much as the players are. However, the players get to go home and not think about the game until the next time they play. The DM has quite a bit more work that isn't really acknowledged by the players. Also, I'm not sure if you've ever eaten something or drank something that smells great and tastes delicious in front of someone who isn't eating or drinking, but most people are going to want to offer some to them, especially if they're a friend. A good friend would offer some sort of compensation. In the case of this DM, this would be covered by the monthly membership fee.

The time and work the OP puts in on DM'ing, along with the hosting of said event, is what warrants the monthly fee.

[mgshamster]

You can get over $1000 per year simply by spending $20 per session.

It's pretty easy to spend $20 per session if you're the only one pitching in for food and drinks for the entire group am every week.

Having everyone pitch in a few bucks a week is not unreasonable.

You probably won't be able to sell them on the entertainment value (and charging $10-15 per week), but $5 per week is perfectly reasonable, even for poor college kids. Heck, they could probably get $10-20 per week just by doing someone's yard work for an hour each weekend. That'd cover the cost right there and put an extra $500 in their own pocket each year. Or they could sacrifice one fast food meal a week, or one pack of cigarettes, or part of an hour of work if they work for at least minimum wage.

[Temperjoke]

First of all shout out to the 209 man. Didn't think anyone from back home played D&D.

Second of all I do think this DM who also happens to be hosting is totally fine to be charging 5-10$ a player a month. Lets go through your points.

1. The DM's I've played with (and it's quite a few) have all absolutely created better content then what's been put out by WOTC because they're invested in the stories their world is telling. The content is a lot more open to whatever they imagine, they aren't tied down to what the book has put out to them. A dragon can definitely appear overhead in their world because it's just that, it's their world. The bad comments part is something that I think isn't possible, and even multi billion dollar game companies are going to receive some sort of negativity; what really matters is how the OP responds to said negativity. A good DM is definitely worth 5-10$ a month.
2. If you're smart with your money? Unless you're cooking something up yourself (more time invested) being smart with your money is going to be buying fast food, and with the suggested amount of 5$, you're only going to have 25$, which isn't getting you much in terms of fast food (even less for healthy food) and drinks.
3. Charging a fee does get players more involved with the content as most would want to see what they're putting in money for. They're going to dig deeper because they "need to get their money's worth."
4. Is there anything wrong with wanting to spend money on your hobby? Just because we can use a pager or a pay phone doesn't mean we're going to. If this DM enjoys creating props or spending money to create a more immersive world, I'd definitely enjoy being a part of that.
5. You don't charge your friends? I have a couple friends who are professional photographers and I would never expect them to take pictures for me for free. With the amount of time that goes into DM'ing (as well as hosting, I definitely feel you on that one as I currently host a Sunday game twice a month and it gets expensive), getting a little compensation to even the costs out is something that would definitely be appreciated.
6. I mean, have you played in one of his games? Have you seen what his actual product is? Maybe he's putting out something that really does deserve to have a service charge attached to it. Regardless of if it's a hobby or not, it's a pretty big time investment. And yes, time is money.
7. I'll give you that, during the game, the DM should be entertained just as much as the players are. However, the players get to go home and not think about the game until the next time they play. The DM has quite a bit more work that isn't really acknowledged by the players. Also, I'm not sure if you've ever eaten something or drank something that smells great and tastes delicious in front of someone who isn't eating or drinking, but most people are going to want to offer some to them, especially if they're a friend. A good friend would offer some sort of compensation. In the case of this DM, this would be covered by the monthly membership fee.

The time and work the OP puts in on DM'ing, along with the hosting of said event, is what warrants the monthly fee.

Comparing him to a professional photographer isn't an equal comparison. Of course I wouldn't expect someone who does a job for a living to do their job for free for me (nevermind that there are lots of people who do). The OP isn't making a profession out of being a DM.

[gfishfunk]

Here is an alternative:

If you spend that amount of time creating high-quality materials, put them up on a rpg site that will allow you to sell a pdf version to subsidize the money you spend.

I'm okay with paying to play, even between friends. I paid $12 to see a movie, I can spend $5 a month to pay for materials or whatever. Not elitist, just a practical cost for time and energy spent.

[Segev]

Long and short, I agree with most of what's been said here.

Have people pitch in for food by splitting the bill. If you're ordering in, split it evenly (or even get them to split it amongst themselves while taking a share, if you and they agree that the free share of food is your DMing fee; we've had that policy in a few groups with which I've gamed). If you're buying snacks ahead of time, have people take turns shopping for and bringing them.

Don't charge for visual aids and supplies and the like that you use. I get that it's expensive; if you can't afford it, cut back. You absolutely do not need all those subscription tools if you can't afford them. I've never used them, and to my knowledge never gamed with a DM who did. There are free tools out there, too, with which you might replace them.

But when working with friends, making it a "pay for the privilege of playing in my game" thing is going to fail, most likely, and it's also likely to cause bitterness.

If you want to actually do it as a business, don't turn to your friends. Start it as a business and take people who'll pay. If your friends join voluntarily rather than you saying "I'm starting a game, but you guys have to pay to play it," great. But be ready for people to have high expectations when paying you to run a game for them.

Be aware that most MMOs are $15-$20 per month, and are on-demand entertainment requiring little to no obligation from the players.

[MrStabby]

I think its a bad move. If nothing else it makes the players consumers and that can make things tough as they have higher expectations. Every session where they didn't get a lot of time in the spotlight? They paid for that session. A ruling where they didn't get to use a skill? They paid for that ruling. A character dies? They paid for you to kill them. It can add a lot of negative context to what might otherwise be shrugged off.

As an additional, make sure you think through things from the players perspectives. If a player is not keen to contribute is it because the food offered is not to their tastes? Are you offering pepperoni pizza and hot dogs to a vegetarian (ok its an extreme example but you get the point). If they are being asked to contribute to something they just see as being for other people it could be a little aggravating.

If you are feeding these guys and they are not chipping in then that can be wrong, but at the same time remember they might have other costs as well. Transport to get home at the end of the evening for example, costs that you don't have. I don't know where you live of if this is a concern or not.

[eastmabl]

As has been reiterated here, I don't think that I would charge membership to be part of the group. If food costs are such an issue, have people pitch in and bring things.

This is what my group does with six packs of beer.

[Segev]

If I were to try to make a business out of running games, I would probably do it in a similar manner to how I understand karaoke bars make most of their money: The cost to use their rooms is negligible, but they charge for food and serve a lot of it.

Essentially, throw a pay-to-attend dinner party every week. One where gaming happens during or after food. As a business, I would set it up so that people can come and go week to week, so that new faces can join and the game isn't cancelled if some people fail to show one week.

There are businesses which do things like Mystery Dinners (everybody is playing a role in a not-quite-scripted drama that usually involves a murder mystery, sometimes is supernatural, etc., and it's all larped/improved with no mechanical system). They're invariably one-shots, in that they're a tale done in one night and then done, but their business model is probably close to what I would examine.

Again, as a business model, another way to do it would be to host but charge for snacks and drinks. This won't work at all if it's done at your house; people's expectations just won't jive with it. Gaming stores can do rather well with this; the one in Rolla that I went to a lot when I lived there didn't make a fortune off of it, but it was a source of some income when gamers used their tables. It could probably be done in such a way as to make it profitable if one finagled the service right.

Theaters, too, make most of their money off of concessions, not the movie tickets. If you could figure out how to replicate that with gaming (charging nothing for attending the game but making money off concessions), that might be a way to do "professional GMing."

But for a group of friends in a private home? This sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[Corran]

On my second year at university (I was studying abroad), I introduced dnd to my friends there, and as they seemed taken by it, we all pitched in some money and grabbed the 4e books. After two years, when we all finished uni and everyone would go their merry way, we splited them or sth like that, I am not exactly who got what as I already had my own copies of the books back home, so I really didnt need any reserves. My point is, that between friends, it is kind of weird to involve any kind of money exchange, regarding playing a game. I dont mean that as a critisism dear op, I rather offer it as an advice. Now, if you are willing and you are able to make some money out of your hobby (which I assume it is), and your players are fine with it, and ofc you are fine with it, then go for it. Though I would personally strongly advice against it, as sooner or later the game would become more than just a game for you. Imo it is better to keep it strictly within the limits of a hobby, and not a job of sorts. As for the food and the snacks, sure, as the host it is very kind of you to provide to your friends who are your guests, but limit it to the point that it does not hurt your finances. Even avoid it completely if you cannot afford it for whatever reason. If some of your guests have set such expectations of you, then you better set things straight explaining why this cannot keep happening, rather than start charging them.

I am sure, judging from what you write, that you ust be one heck of a DM, who puts a lot of effort into his campaigns. But if it was me, and I had the choice of playing in your fantastic table that involved a fee, or at AL, I would choose to play at AL (and I am really not a big fan of premade adventures). And all that because for good or bad, it would feel really starnge for me to pay to play dnd, especially if I was playing with friends.




Do your friends do things for you in areas other than DnD? If not, ask them for favors.

Putting a price tag on things among friends is almost always a bad idea. If you ask for favors instead, both parties have a chance to feel good.
Someone must have watched godfather recently :smallsmile:


I pointed out that he received 5 hours a week of free entertainment and that if this was a sports team or most other group activities there would be costs associated with membership.
I also have to point sth out here. If the players dont contribute to that entertinment because your campaign is not a coherent story, you could try playing the game a bit differently, as it is supposed to be exactly that (at least imo). If they do not contribute because they are ''bad'' players, maybe find another group or ask someone else to DM.

[Vogonjeltz]

I've been DMing for over two years now. I've hosted the games in my home, supplied snacks, cleaned up before and after the games, arranged social outings, ran adventures, created handouts, incorporated player feedback, created maps for dungeons, etc. I've racked up well over a thousand dollars in costs ranging from software (like Fantasy Grounds), services (like D&D Insider, Epic Words, etc), and supplies like art paper, pencils, and toner.


So here's what I'm wondering, based on what I've said here what are your thoughts? Specifically, I'm looking for justification on why players think that the DM should buy all the books, subscribe to all the services, and feed them on a weekly basis and not expect to be compensated. Constructive feedback is welcome and appreciated.

I've never been in a gaming group that didn't split the costs in some fashion or rotate/reciprocate on costs for food/hosting.

In general, if you find the continued costs of a particular thing (food, services, whatever) to no longer be worthwhile stop buying that thing.

Books are another matter. You should have your own copy of any books being used in the game, or if you don't want to do that, just accept that you'll be deviating from the game rules.

[ES Curse]

As most everyone else has said, charging is an unnecessarily blunt way to cover costs. As a creative DM, you only have 2 explicit responsibilities: Write adventures and manage NPCs/rules for the game. Food and materials can be the responsibility of your players.

[Gryndle]

As a player I doubt I would ever pay to be part of a group.

As a DM, I only invite players into my home that I consider friends. When I was financially able to, I always provided dinner and soaked up expenses for the materials I use.
Over the past few years I have become disabled and finances are much tighter.
I met with the group and told them I would no longer be able to promise dinner for everyone every time, that it would be helpful if everyone fended for themselves or pitched in for communal dinner. And I have had to ask them to provide some of the materials (mainly markers that work on our vinyl battlemats, and occasionally printer paper).

For me, asking for them to help and telling my guests that I couldn't feed them was a huge deal. I feel like a bad host as it is. I could not imagine asking my friends to pay me for DMing or hosting the game. That just doesn't sit right with me.

[mgshamster]

So for me personally, I typically buy all the alcohol (typically beer and/or wine), soda, snacks, and food. I also usually am the GM. Regardless of if in the GM or not, game is at my house.

My players compensate me by spending money on gas and putting miles on their car to get to my house. They occasionally also bring alcohol, soda, snacks, or food - either to relieve me of paying for it or because I let them know that I'm unable to supply all of it for the week (probabaly about once a month).

[Sigreid]

I have never been in a group where people weren't responsible for their own snacks with the exception of maybe people deciding to chip in on pizza. Just tell you're friends that they need to bring their own food or if they want everyone can chip in for pizza.

As far as all the other stuff you spend money on, I see that as on you. I don't look to others to reimburse me for money I choose to spend on my hobbies.

That being said, if you are a fantastic DM, you could give professional DM a shot. Cater D&D parties or whatever. Give it a shot, stranger businesses have succeeded. Looking to your friends to be customers though is a good way to end friendships.

[bullywug]

Wow, okay so that's a lot of great feedback. Thanks to all of you for your feedback.

To clarify, here's where I'm coming from so you don't think I'm a jerk trying to rob my players. I've asked for volunteers to help with the various tasks like bringing snacks or keeping a journal of the adventures but no one agrees to help. They used to when the group first formed but they stopped a very long time ago and now I can't get a volunteer for anything anymore. The players don't buy their own books, subscribe to DnDInsider, pay for their own copy of Fantasy Grounds so I don't have to buy the uber expensive version, etc. The extras, like art supplies, add up and while they add to my enjoyment my view is that I'm adding to their enjoyment by the dozens of hours I spend creating an adventure and all the visual aids that go with it.

What I think I'm understanding everyone to say is that the players won't pay or if they do pay it will cause problems. I think that's an unfortunate part of the D&D culture. When I compare this to other group activities like bowling, soccer, or other team sports (which this pretty much is) people are expected to share the cost. The coach is not expected to buy your uniforms or pay for materials required for group activities (like the soccer ball even though no one can take it home with them). So I don't think this is about charging money being unfair but rather impractical for the mindset of people who play D&D.

I guess the upside to this is I have absolutely no commitment to do anything other than what I want to do that week. The down side is that I will still be the one who spends hours creating the adventure, hours prepping the adventure, and hours running the adventure and doing bookkeeping. I think I see now why every DM I've ever had was kind of grumpy and didn't put up with ungrateful players.

Anyway, I think the consensus has answered my question pretty thoroughly. I'll keep all this in mind when I form my new group in the fall. Or maybe I won't. Depends on if I think I can get enough enjoyment out of it to justify the amount of time and money I spend on it.

[Firechanter]

TBH, I wouldn't want to pay a fee to be allowed to play. I'd much rather do without snacks and/or bring my own stuff.

I have to drive quite a bit to get to our weekly game, and that adds up very noticably. Very roughly 40€ per month just for gas. With that I'm the guy with the highest transportation cost in the group by a long shot. I occasionally also give other players a lift and never ask for gas money (nor is any offered).
Our DM (who usually also is our host) supplies soft drinks and snacks, but that's his own choice, and we all appreciate it. If he decided that from now on it's tap water or bring-your-own, that would be fine by me (and my belly would be grateful).
If I didn't have such high running costs anyway just to play at all, I might not mind as much.

If it was me hosting our games, I guess I'd also supply soft drinks and snacks, but then everybody else would be paying €10 per week in gas to get to my place, so it would be rather a loss for them. :p

Many years ago I had a group where we met a couple of hours early and cooked a real dinner together before playing. That was also lovely, and we either took turns buying groceries or chipped in; I don't remember anymore, but anyway, we split the cost. Which was a necessity because that wasn't five, six bucks for chips and jellybeans, but more like 50 to feed the whole group.

[Saffron-sama]

Wow, okay so that's a lot of great feedback. Thanks to all of you for your feedback.

To clarify, here's where I'm coming from so you don't think I'm a jerk trying to rob my players. I've asked for volunteers to help with the various tasks like bringing snacks or keeping a journal of the adventures but no one agrees to help. They used to when the group first formed but they stopped a very long time ago and now I can't get a volunteer for anything anymore. The players don't buy their own books, subscribe to DnDInsider, pay for their own copy of Fantasy Grounds so I don't have to buy the uber expensive version, etc. The extras, like art supplies, add up and while they add to my enjoyment my view is that I'm adding to their enjoyment by the dozens of hours I spend creating an adventure and all the visual aids that go with it.

What I think I'm understanding everyone to say is that the players won't pay or if they do pay it will cause problems. I think that's an unfortunate part of the D&D culture. When I compare this to other group activities like bowling, soccer, or other team sports (which this pretty much is) people are expected to share the cost. The coach is not expected to buy your uniforms or pay for materials required for group activities (like the soccer ball even though no one can take it home with them). So I don't think this is about charging money being unfair but rather impractical for the mindset of people who play D&D.

I guess the upside to this is I have absolutely no commitment to do anything other than what I want to do that week. The down side is that I will still be the one who spends hours creating the adventure, hours prepping the adventure, and hours running the adventure and doing bookkeeping. I think I see now why every DM I've ever had was kind of grumpy and didn't put up with ungrateful players.

Anyway, I think the consensus has answered my question pretty thoroughly. I'll keep all this in mind when I form my new group in the fall. Or maybe I won't. Depends on if I think I can get enough enjoyment out of it to justify the amount of time and money I spend on it.

Well most D&D players should be buying their own books and most do.So its not really the mindset of D&D players as a whole, its your players. Most if not almost all groups pay a portion of the tap if they eat or bring their own food.
So you use bowling as an example well lets put it this way then everyone should be buying their own bowling shirt, shoes and balls (the books) and if they want to eat buy their own snacks. The thing about being a GM is like being a manager for a bowling league group you are solely the one to contact other groups make sure the bowling alleys fine to use and ect (time for the adventures and basic art supplies ) though what you are doing is renting out alleys coercing ofher teams with money (the extras like expensive art suplies and minis and a variety of dungeon tiles ect). Despite the group just wants to play and do not need all those extras.

I spent about 10 to15 dollars in my last two to three years of DMing on art supplies (40 the year before but thay was to get a vinyl map), I made my own player token(minis) with paper drawing basic designs like a tree or the flash symbol ect, built my own DM shield and made a bunch of maps. Props like letters can be made nice with coffee staining them. You can go online and put pictures on your tablet or on a laptop. Most online services that have a cost should be a players point if they want them if not its your extra.

Money will sour those relationships fast so if you can't help yourself about getring amazing supplies and want to charfe them for it I would just stop DMing see if anyone else wants to or just break up the group.

If a Gm charged my group I would talk to the group to find a different place to game and either start Gming or find another person (I know it sounds mean). As a Gm you are complete expendable they can find someone else or just stop playing.

[HammeredWharf]

It sounds like you just have to be more strict with them. For example, food. If I'm the DM, I'm not everyone's shared house husband. I can make some food, if I'm feeling nice. If I don't feel like it, I won't, and they can jealously stare at my delicious freshly-baked baguette, which I'll eat right in front of them. Oh, you want one? What did you say about food duty? No? Right, so get you own food.

Some people think that guests are entitled to food and such, but when it's a weekly gathering between friends, they're not really guests anymore. If they can't be bothered to participate in getting food, they don't get any. If they don't want any, it's fine. If they do, they'll soon change their mind about chipping in.

[unwise]

My group has a pretty simple set up for financial stuff.

1 - We take turns making dinner, just chilli-con-carne, slow-cooked stew or something else you can make in bulk. Or just sausages and bread if nobody puts their hand up.

2 - Basically, nobody takes their loose change back after buying dinner. We round up all expenses and put the left over money in a jar. Eventually we find there is a bit of money there and it will be enough for a pizza run, but we get the DM to just use it to buy a new adventure module.

3- As the DM I pay for DD Insider etc and the books as a rule. I come out paying heaps more than everybody else, but at least I own the pretty books. Much like if I bought the boardgame people played, I would not expect people to chip in every time we played it.

4- All left over beer is left behind and goes into my belly. Normally amounts to about a 6 pack. Nobody minds as I spend a lot more on the food than they do.

As far as the OP goes, I suggest he just stops spending the money on things. If people want the spiffy visual aids etc they will ask for them and chip in for them. I just decided to stop buying drinks and snacks when I was hosting, people caught on and always turn up with stuff now.

[kaoskonfety]

I'll keep all this in mind when I form my new group in the fall. Or maybe I won't. Depends on if I think I can get enough enjoyment out of it to justify the amount of time and money I spend on it.

Basically this should be at the heart of every big or repeated expense. My groups do theater of the mind or free online tools to cutback on mini's. I've bought perhaps 3 modules over the years (decades... dam*) and generally don't bother with the DMG's very often cause I know how to do the job and if I need to reference it a player almost always has on on hand - or recently, the internet does.

That said I've casually dropped well over 10 grand over the years on books, props, snacks, transport and so on. I know people with collections of books alone worth as much or more who are getting close to 6 figures total layout most likely.

The money I spend on food these days is because I enjoy cooking and having 3-5 captive taste testers is a handy way to dispose of perhaps "not quite great" experiments.

I love this hobby because it can fit whatever my budget is dollars wise - the game works fine with just one copy of the books between a group and a few dozen pieces of paper. I can play host with my group on a couple cups of popcorn or rice and soy sauce and some teas.

As a DM I can flex my time committed similarly between "semi-linear dungeon crawl of the week" and "sweeping dramatic epic with 90%+ of what I write being unused" - I have alot of notes that took several games to see the light of day. Some of my players PREFER my slapdash 20 minute to make "6-9 appropriate encounters with some puzzles, jokes, and light RP" stuff. Hell, sometime I prefer it.

I'd suggest you stick with it rather than give it up and just adjust how much you pour in week by week. DM burn out is quite the thing and I don't suggest trying to power though it. Take five, run (or have another player run) a $2 module out of a used bin or lifted from the internet for a few weeks/months, and , when it kinda suck and doesn't make sense in half a dozen places, laugh about it and keep killing those trolls (that are eating what exactly when the PC's are not here? Each other maybe?).

[Grod_The_Giant]

The players don't buy their own books
Books are expensive. Real expensive. It's a lot to ask everyone to own a full set, especially if you play multiple systems. Generally only the one or two people who are most into the system will have them.


subscribe to DnDInsider, pay for their own copy of Fantasy Grounds so I don't have to buy the uber expensive version, etc.
So... don't bother using those things? They're just tools. Buy a $15 dry-erase battle map and use it forever.


The extras, like art supplies, add up and while they add to my enjoyment my view is that I'm adding to their enjoyment by the dozens of hours I spend creating an adventure and all the visual aids that go with it.
Didn't you say your players didn't really care about the visual aids? While it sounds awesome, you can't demand that they pay for something they don't think they need. If you don't find the production fun enough to be "worth it," don't do it.


What I think I'm understanding everyone to say is that the players won't pay or if they do pay it will cause problems. I think that's an unfortunate part of the D&D culture. When I compare this to other group activities like bowling, soccer, or other team sports (which this pretty much is) people are expected to share the cost. The coach is not expected to buy your uniforms or pay for materials required for group activities (like the soccer ball even though no one can take it home with them). So I don't think this is about charging money being unfair but rather impractical for the mindset of people who play D&D.
D&D isn't a big organized thing like a team sport, though-- certainly not one intense enough that uniforms are actually required. It's a couple of people hanging out and doing a thing at home. Would you demand people pay for a music party, or to come over and watch a movie, or...I dunno what normal people do, dance? It's a completely different thing from a formal sports league.


I guess the upside to this is I have absolutely no commitment to do anything other than what I want to do that week. The down side is that I will still be the one who spends hours creating the adventure, hours prepping the adventure, and hours running the adventure and doing bookkeeping. I think I see now why every DM I've ever had was kind of grumpy and didn't put up with ungrateful players.
DMing should be fun for you. If it's becoming a burden, it's time to pass the torch.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think I see now why every DM I've ever had was kind of grumpy and didn't put up with ungrateful players. Yep, ungrateful players are invited to either cheer up of find other venues for fun.

Looking to your friends to be customers though is a good way to end friendships. This, a hundred times this.

[Segev]

With splat-book-heavy systems like 3e D&D, it has been my experience that the DM has at least the core books, and about 20-60% of the players typically have at least the PHB (or equivalent). The group's collection of splat books, however, will typically be scattered across all of the players. The DM is within his rights to demand to borrow any book his players are using, but to expect they have the book if he does not. And to reject anything from a book that he does not have, especially if it cannot be provided to him by loan from another player.

With less splat-heavy systems... well, sure. Books are pricey. But the GM presumably owns the books because he bought them due to wanting to run, right? I think it less the players "expecting" the GM to buy "all" the books, and more that the way gaming works, the GM has to have his own copy or he probably wouldn't think to run it.

The rest of it...don't use things you can't afford. If the players want them badly enough, ask them to chip in specifically for the subscriptions or whatnot. If they don't, let the subscriptions lapse.

[Mellack]

This is friends getting together to play a game, not a sports league. You are not a coach. The DM is not senior to the other players. It is more like a bunch getting together to play some pick-up soccer. One guy brings a ball and everyone plays. Nobody needs uniforms or fancy stuff. You said yourself that the player you asked didn't have much interest in your fancy visual aids. What you want is not the same as what is required. It sounds like you want them to help support your hobby. Stop supplying food, they will bring their own or not eat during game time. Really, if you already have the books, you need very little to run the game, just some pencils and paper.

[Ruslan]

I've asked for volunteers to help with the various tasks like bringing snacks or keeping a journal of the adventures but no one agrees to help.
If they don't want to bring snacks, they don't get snacks. Bring snacks for yourself and just for yourself.


The players don't buy their own books, subscribe to DnDInsider, pay for their own copy of Fantasy Grounds so I don't have to buy the uber expensive version, etc. The extras, like art supplies, add up and while they add to my enjoyment my view is that I'm adding to their enjoyment by the dozens of hours I spend creating an adventure and all the visual aids that go with it.
It's reasonable to expect that each player own his own copy of the PHB; anything beyond that is unreasonable.


The down side is that I will still be the one who spends hours creating the adventure, hours prepping the adventure, and hours running the adventureOk, I'm going to be absolutely serious right now, and I will switch to bold font to make my point. If, to you, all of this is a DOWNSIDE, you shouldn't be DMing in the first place. Like, you need quit DMing RIGHT NOW, pronto, if you view all of this as a downside. Seriously.

[Ruslan]

This is friends getting together to play a game, not a sports league. You are not a coach. The DM is not senior to the other players. It is more like a bunch getting together to play some pick-up soccer. One guy brings a ball and everyone plays. Nobody needs uniforms or fancy stuff. You said yourself that the player you asked didn't have much interest in your fancy visual aids. What you want is not the same as what is required. It sounds like you want them to help support your hobby.
Imagine this if you will:

A bunch of friends are kicking a ball around in the park. Suddenly one of them goes: "Hey, I got uniforms for everyone! Isn't that cool? We can have uniforms!"
Another friend responds: "I... I don't think we need uniforms... We're just kicking a ball around."
"Yeah, we're not really interested in uniforms," a third friend says.
The first person insists: "But look, those are really nice uniforms! I put a lot of effort designing them and making them! Look how nice they are! Won't you try them?"
The players say: "I guess we can try them on... why not... they don't look half bad."
At this point, the first player says: "That'd be $20 each!"

Uncomfortable silence ensues.

[Pex]

Everyone pays their cost for their own lunch or dinner when ordering. Everyone chips in for snacks or brings their own to share and don't harp just because one player didn't for one session for whatever reason. All fair and good.

I would not pay for the privilege of playing*, and I am absolutely not paying for the DM's books and supplies. I have my own books, dice, and pencils that I pay for.

*If the only location available to play is some store or similar venue that charges a fee for space that I wouldn't mind chipping in for as long as everyone does, including the DM, and then how much is a factor. I balked at joining a once a week group at a store that required $10 per person. I'm not paying $40+ a month just to play. If it's a store that serves food but doesn't charge for play space naturally I'll purchase my meal there.

[Toilet Cobra]

I don't think charging dues is a good idea. But mitigating your costs isn't so hard:

*All players are responsible for their own food & drink. Tapwater available upon request :P
*Ditch the subscription services, make do without them like 99% of other players
*Make use of the SRD for whatever system you're running. Don't buy books unless you want them for your own purposes; the players can get their own, use the SRD, or roll something from Core
*Look into cheap replacements for minis. They don't look as nice, sure, but you can use tokens, coins, Pathfinder Pawns, or scraps of paper. I use Pathfinder Pawns for the players/boss monsters and coins for the rest.
*Not sure what sort of battlemat system you're using, but a cheap mat or dry erase board will last you a hugely long time, and you only need to get new dry erase markers infrequently

This is basically how I run my games (I do provide sodas but that's it). My outlay is extremely minimal and manageable. I don't sink huge amounts of time into anything but writing the game, which I view as a pleasure and a privilege. My game probably looks pretty hobo-ish compared to yours, but I think the pros outweigh the cons personally.

If your players won't agree to pay for their own food, don't feed them. If they won't show up without being offered dinner, they are ridiculous people.

[Giant2005]

I am really stupid with my money, yet I don't think I'd be willing to subscribe to your game.
In my old flat I had an arrangement with my flatmate - I'd pay for the entirety of the groceries if she would do the entirety of the cooking. I made the offer. You are doing something similar (doing the cooking and having them pay), the difference is that you are asking them to do it. It should be the same in principle, but I don't think I would have been willing to do my groceries thing if my flatmate was the one asking for the handout either - it just flares up my paranoia and makes me think I am being used. Even if the offer is intended entirely innocently, the potential for it to be made from a position of greed would greatly change the dynamic.

You should just cut back on the costs. Stop providing food, and switch your game over to Roll20 where the same service is provided for free. If you don't want to do that, take the work you are doing and publish it on DMsGuild so more grateful roleplayers can give you the money you need.

[Doug Lampert]

As most everyone else has said, charging is an unnecessarily blunt way to cover costs. As a creative DM, you only have 2 explicit responsibilities: Write adventures and manage NPCs/rules for the game. Food and materials can be the responsibility of your players.

I've GMed at someone else's house when that was convenient. When the guy with the game-store job needed to be there to lock up after a tournament or something I've GMed at the store.

When I was a starving grad student the group met at the central location that had enough space (i.e. the same apartment regardless of who was GMing).

If HOSTING is costing too much money and effort, tell the group that someone else needs to host. Then it's his problem.

Gaming supply expenses are pretty much the GM's problem. It's your stuff after all.

[Alejandro]

Just to throw in my 2 cents (ha!)

Having run or played in games for fifteen years, and almost always providing the physical hosting space (whether or not I was the GM) here are my experiences and observations:

- Snacks: Anyone who wants to can bring some. The cost is on that person. If they do bring snacks, it is generally expected that they will share, and they always have (with the exception of one player that had a special food requirement and so always provided for themselves.)

- Drinks: BYOB. As host, I often also freely share whatever I have in the fridge or liquor cabinet; if something is off limits, I just say so.

- Meal: We usually break for dinner. Everyone is responsible for their own food if we order delivery or go pick something up. Sometimes different players go to different places, and everyone comes back with their carryout. For a while, we tried cooking food for everyone, and having everyone chip in X dollars, but that did not work well because people would invariably forget to bring cash, not pay, owe for next time, etc. If you have someone who is a really good cook or a hosting site with a great deck and BBQ grill, etc, then this might be different. We do grill in the summer months, and this is always arranged ahead of time with exactly who is bringing what and paying for it.

- Books/Dice/Modules: Unless your group has some sort of formal, shared library, book expenditures are up to the individual. If you don't have a book, someone who does should share theirs with you at the table for reference purposes, just like not everyone who plays in a baseball game chips in an equal share of the cost of the baseball itself. Likewise for dice, but we've never had someone who did not buy their own immediately. Modules are generally an expense the GM takes on. In our group, it is common for someone to give the GM a module as a birthday or Christmas present, with the expectation that it might get run for them as a player later. Works well.

- Cleanup: Technically the host's job. After all, they aren't expending any gas to get to the game, and are already home when it's over. Considerate players will refrain from making a mess in the first place, so there is usually not much to clean up. If there is, ask for help or get people to stop making a mess.

[bullywug]

Thanks again for all the feedback. Some very valuable stuff here and I appreciate you all taking the time to share.

I have enjoyed DMing over the last two years. What I enjoy the most as I mentioned is creating the the adventure, making the handouts, brining the story to life and having it jump off the page. I love having players talk about the adventure after it's over and write in their journals about the cool things their characters did. I think most DMs are like this, we live vicariously through our players. What I have to accept is that DMing is a thankless job and to that end I should do it for myself and not for them. I think this was my mistake. A player wanted to play remotely so we started using Roll20 but then the local players said there were performance issues because it was web based (scrolling and stuff) so I did research and found Fantasy Grounds, spent months learning the system (it ain't easy) and then ran games with that. Other players complained they didn't like Fantasy Grounds all the while I prefer pen and paper so I can make things like dragon tiles (seriously I could build a world out of it). The food issue was similar. The players originally were rotating who brought the food, then they wanted to pay me to buy the food, no big deal, but then they stopped paying and kept expecting food. Maybe the issue is that we've not taken a break in years and they've come to take everything for granted. I don't know but the advice I've had over and over again in this thread seems to boil down to one point, do it for myself and not the players. I guess it's like "If you build it, they will come."

Anyway, good hearing from you all and happy gaming.

[Ruslan]

The food issue was similar. The players originally were rotating who brought the food, then they wanted to pay me to buy the food, no big deal, but then they stopped paying and kept expecting food.Well, there's an easy solution for that. They don't pay, they come to an empty table. Well, empty of food, at least.

"Where's the food?"
"No one paid for it, so I guess it's still in the store."

[Alejandro]

Well, there's an easy solution for that. They don't pay, they come to an empty table. Well, empty of food, at least.

"Where's the food?"
"No one paid for it, so I guess it's still in the store."

I wonder if they expected free XP, too. X)

[FightStyles]

My group use to go in on a keg. There were three of us, but one of us that we played at each time had a kegorator. So, the two of us paid 25% of the keg and the third paid 50% since he also had all the time to drink without us (we played once/2 weeks).

This was awesome since we didn't have to bring drinks and cost $20 for about 3-4 months of ice cold beer. It stopped for a while since the owner of the kegorator was low on cash. But I think things are better so I might try to get it going again. This thread just reminded me of it, so thanks! haha





*To answer the OP question. Don't mix business and friends/family. That is rule #1. You will run into problems 99.98% of the time you mix the two. People still try and do it, and friendship and family ties are still be soured in the process.

[smcmike]

Just another voice saying this is a bad idea. Do not charge for admission. This changes the dynamic.

Do stop feeding everyone for free if that's a problem for you. Suggest a potluck or a return to a rotating system, or wait for everyone to show up and say "who wants to go in on a Pizza order with me."

Do not ever associate your services as a DM for your friends with payment. You are doing this because you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, stop doing it.

[NewDM]

(Haven't read the thread yet)

You've gotta spin it as a legitimate club. Find a building to hold the game in (like a game shop), something other than your home. Tell your friends you can no longer do it out of your home because reasons.

Then get some nice stationary and mail them official letters. Invite them to the game 'club' in the letter. Make a note in small print at the bottom that if they don't pay the club membership fee they won't get access to any of the club services including: snacks, DM props, DM, books, game time, etc...etc... Invite other players to the club and get a few more DMs involved. If anyone wants to game 'outside' the 'club' just explain that all your free time for gaming is taken up by the club.

Once it looks legit your players will either choose not to be a part or they will go find another DM, either way the problem is solved.

[Segev]

That is an idea. I would actually try to expand it just a little bit: if you're going to make it a club, make it a "gaming club." These exist quite successfully. The purpose is to facilitate gaming in general, however, not to sponsor a single game. Your membership fees cover club-owned items and club-sponsored events. They can help pay for hotel rooms for gaming conventions your club attends, or food for events. They can buy books for the club.

You'll want some formality in the form of at least a treasurer and a president, and to have meetings about organizational matters. Including helping form new games, and encouraging members to take up GMing duties.

[gullveig]

As poor guys in a poor country, I and my friends did that:

We gathered our saves and brought what could be brought. We understood if you are broken and haven't a penny but if you are cheap, you will not eat with us.

Everyone had a few dice and we shared the dice. We didn't care with someone didn't have dice, the dice pool are for everyone use.

About the books... One of this: Someone had the book, someone lent the book to us, we played from memory without the book. We barely had the money to afford the main book... Splat books only the rich friend of a friend had and we manage to take a peak on that from time to time.

[bullywug]

I wonder if they expected free XP, too. X)

One of them, yes.

[bullywug]

(Haven't read the thread yet)

You've gotta spin it as a legitimate club. Find a building to hold the game in (like a game shop), something other than your home. Tell your friends you can no longer do it out of your home because reasons.

Then get some nice stationary and mail them official letters. Invite them to the game 'club' in the letter. Make a note in small print at the bottom that if they don't pay the club membership fee they won't get access to any of the club services including: snacks, DM props, DM, books, game time, etc...etc... Invite other players to the club and get a few more DMs involved. If anyone wants to game 'outside' the 'club' just explain that all your free time for gaming is taken up by the club.

Once it looks legit your players will either choose not to be a part or they will go find another DM, either way the problem is solved.

Hmmm. Overall I like this idea. Especially the part of having multiple DMs running multiple games. Problem is it still relies on players giving a doo dad and actually contributing in some manner to the group. Maybe it's because I live in downtown Toronto and everyone here is a selfish lying jerk out for themselves. I don't know. All of these suggestions worked when I lived in Houston and San Francisco but here getting someone to do anything to help out is like pulling teeth. I had one guy in the group flat out tell me that he expected me to clean my apartment every week. Well, I usually do but I'm a student and some weeks I'm doing good to sleep much less clean (and I did pick up). So yeah. Maybe move to St John's. They had nice gamers.