E6, 3.P, Gramarie, SoP and the World at Large

[Ruethgar]

I am slowly putting together a world that is looking like it'll be ending with quite a bit of homebrew material, but I have the basics down for now but have a few questions about world generation.

How should one adjust the population layout within the confines of E6?
The normal rules for this are wonky in and of themselves, often resulting in strangely leveled NPCs. I would probably want to keep the 90% Commoners, but it is primarily that last 10% and the level distribution I would like assistance or suggestions on. Though complete overhaul suggestions are welcome as well.

How would Gramarie alter the setting?
I'm using Gramarie Mark II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?291019-By-the-Inferior-Science-of-our-Enemies-Gramarie-Mark-II) because the update doesn't seem complete. This is the really big one, I put in the ability for level 6 people focused on Gramarie to get up to two Magisterial principals(one from Extra Credit, one from their E6 capstone). This is highly dependent on the above question results, but let's assume level 6s are very rare. So what would be the result of Baccalaureate principles(especially 101) being relatively common but rarely more than one per person?

Gramarie:

ARCD: Transforming to or from life energy as well as moving energy through what amount to be electrical circuits.
BIOY: Dead bodies make for great gas converters. Can fill a room with O2 for some fiery doom, or create water in conjunction with a condensation mechanism, or suffocate people with CO2. Some nice things available here, especially in closed environments like underground.
ELDK: Complex. I generally ignore this and go with a YGGD gravity engine but that is not readily available here. I suggest reading it yourself, but it basically lets you make horizontal plane vehicles with a lot of math.
GEOC: Climate control and awesome agricultural potential. Expensive though.
HEUR: Very little on its own, but with ARCD and can nulify the cost of GEOC or power ELDK... with a sacrifice.
IMCH: Basically a long term illusion of any or up to all senses that takes a very long time to prepare. Can do wonders for aesthetics.
KALD: You can exclude heat or metal and stone from an area. Given enough prep time, this means towns can be protected against most arrows or bullets and also makes desert living better or make fire-fighter shields but does little for cold.
YGGD: Cabinets! This can also deliver deadly materials on projectiles. As far as constructive uses, fluid goods are easy to transport long distances with little need to worry over encumbrance. Can also provide shields to buildings or, less efficiently, creatures.



How would Spheres of Power alter the setting?
The Extra Talents and Spell Points are limited by their casting stat, but that still gives access to all non-advanced sphere abilities. While many of these wouldn't alter the game much, I'm still curious as to what the playground thinks would change with sphere powers being available, particularly the Nature ones.


Warp: Teleportation is the biggy, with Teleport Beacon, it makes a key component of a Tippyverse possible to at least some degree.
Weather: Although temporary, regular application over time can keep an unnatural ecosystem going or give the ability to fill large areas with water faster than Nature.
Nature: Teraforming and endless ice for building. Makes cold weather building easier as well as giving the ability to colonize harsh terrain without much difficulty. Furthermore, the plant functions can make farming insanely efficient.
Telekinesis: Moving things always helps.
Conjuration: Temporary free labor.


How could I balance my Custom Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396943-Custom-Prestige-Races&p=18776585#post18776585) better and how would they alter the game world if at all?
This is another big one to tackle, though I think the greatest alterations would come in with the aforementioned SoP and Gramarie. The other options are pretty much just squeezing in as many thematic choices and systems, that you would have otherwise had, into a smaller array of classes. Assume E6 in your assessments. And if there are any archetypes not covered by the classes presented, please do let me know.

Assume all Officially Licensed or Published WotC material available except base classes. Any Human for playable races, demi-humans are absent from the setting or isolated enough to be irrelevant. I doubt this would result in a Tippyverse, but it is that line of thinking I'm looking for on the higher op end of things.

[johnbragg]

I've noodled and noodled, and I've convinced myself of my E6 demographics. (The math would apply to non-capped D&D worlds too.)

50% of folks are 1st level.
37.5% of folks are 2nd level. (Mostly Expert 2s, some Warrior or Fighter 2s in more violent areas.)
10% are 3rd level.
The rest are just outliers, so say the math breaks down and you can give them whatever levels you like.

How did I come up with this? Well, society is a functioning concern, so the world isn't chock-full of CR 1+ lethal threats.

To make the math easier, I'm going with 10 Average encounters per level instead of 13 1/3. So an Average Encounter is worth 100xp. But that's Average for a death-defying adventurer type. The sorts of challenges that most people face are not of the lethal variety. They're challenging, but the stakes are not as high as ending up in the goblins' stewpot if you fail.

So it takes your average farmer or craftsman 20 nonlethal challenges to reach level 2. (If I'm modeling this closely, retrain Commoner 1 to Expert or Fighter 1 after 10 encounters.) Plant the crops, harvest, survive the winter, one wildcard a year puts you at 4 challenges per year. So 5 years to reach 2nd level at a fast clip.

From 2nd to 3rd level, it figures to take 40 of the same nonlethal challenges (50 xp *40 = 2000), another 10 years or so. Maybe more, if you factor in challenges being worth less XP as they become routine. So around age 30, maybe 35.

Which is as far as most people get--another 60 non-lethal challenges, another 15 years of grinding away to get to 4th level.

In mundane guild terms, 1st levels are your apprentices. 2nd levels are your journeymen--fully qualified guild members. 3rd levels are your master craftsmen.

For the math, I modeled the population like a radioactive half-life.



LEvel
XP
Population


1
0-1000
50%


2
1001-2000
25%


2
2001-3000
12.5% (Total 37.5%)


3
3001-4000
6.5%


3
4001-5000
3.25%


3
5001-6000
1.5% (Total 10.25%)


4+
6001+
1.5%

[stack]

Weather at best is hitting a large area (long range for CL 12), so it would take a lot of people a lot of time to seriously impact climate. (CL 12, thaumaturge 5/incanter 1 with specialization and a +2 staff, backlash is an issue)

Setting up a proper tippy teleport network is difficult, since you have to keep jumping between the anchor points, but major kingdoms may be able to set up a network. Takes SP and the beacons only last hrs a level, sontonsustain it you need to occupy the time and resources of you few high level casters, same problem as weather though with more free time.

Nature feeding people should be much different from clerics. Requires plants and grow plants doesn't keep them alive outside environments that support them. It's nice, certainly, but again with limited casters it isn't impacting the bulk of the population.

Other spheres, baring advanced talents, are all useful but no more likely to fundamentally alter the world than other casters. Destruction users make nice artillery, for example, and war casters are great in a battle, but sorcerers and bards are too.

Don't know about grammerie.

[Ruethgar]

That is a fine looking population distribution by level. There would be 15 classes total, Expert and Commoner being the ones not listed in the link. For simplicity's sake, I will be excluding PrCs from non-important NPCs. If I give the Commoners a 64%, Experts 10%, and others each 2% that should result in them being fairly rare but not legendary. I could also just pick a few, say three, classes that each kingdom gets as say 15% of their population and boost Commoners to 70% Experts to 15%.

Being that the world will have primarily 3.5 humans, you can start as a level one Commoner with four feats. This means that they potentially have readily available access to magic even in thorps. However it is Gramarie where most of the changes are likely to take place, but also where more people are needed with different skill sets to complete a task making it more likely in a city but uncommon elsewhere. An ARCD 101 Silver and Wooden transformer on a circuit with a BIOY 101 and a GEOC 101 could alter entire regions to be more habitable at the cost of four people working with one specialized feat each. ELDK in place of GEOC could theoretically make cars, though more likely public transit or aristocrat vehicles only considering the short life-span of a low quality BIOY 101 based engine(needs to be made of metal to not die after 2 min).

Also, a lone level 1 Commoner with 2 feats can alter the weather for as long as they concentrate within long range. Add Severe Weather and Lengthened Weather and they could spend their spell point to easily deal with a wide array of storms or particularly extreme weather such as throwing up clouds every mid-day for an hour in the sun. Also the massive volume of water created by making it rain every day, even if only in CL 1 long range, would make a significant impact on at least very localized conditions as far as arable land goes even without GEOC. Forge Earth and Grow Plants being of such limited scope and needing spell points makes them less useful however, a 10ft radius per day of instantly grown rice or corn or 3 medium meals is not insignificant, nor is the ability to create a 10ft irrigation channel in one round when it would take half a day normally by mining rules. And if that magic is split to two people, they can also have Extra Spell Points to vastly increase uses. The teleportation would be difficult to handle without sleepless creatures or significant spell points but might be set up with someone clever enough to utilize it. Apart from Destruction artillery and maybe long-term Conjurations, I'm not seeing much else that might fundamentally alter the world.

[Tvtyrant]

I use the following rules for E6 population:

Class breakdown:
20% commoners.
20% warriors.
40% experts.
5% adepts.
4% racially favored class.
1% all other classes.

Level Breakdown:
Level 1 at age 10, +2 at age 20, +1 level per age category after that for none-PC classes.
Roughly even distribution among pre-epic levels for PC classes, .001% of population is epic.

The average person is a level 3 expert.

[druid91]

I'm gonna have to say that Magisterial principles would kind of.... invalidate the point of E6.

[Coidzor]

Sounds like Gramarie means that it's somewhere between Eberron and a world where Tesla was more successful and a little less crazy.

[Yogibear41]

50% of folks are 1st level.
37.5% of folks are 2nd level. (Mostly Expert 2s, some Warrior or Fighter 2s in more violent areas.)
10% are 3rd level.
The rest are just outliers, so say the math breaks down and you can give them whatever levels you like.



I think this is a good break down, I played in an e6 game once, and once we made it to level 6, it was like every NPC we ever met was level 6 too, It aggravated me so much. Ran into more level 6 npcs in that game than I did in the standard game I play in.

[Tvtyrant]

I think this is a good break down, I played in an e6 game once, and once we made it to level 6, it was like every NPC we ever met was level 6 too, It aggravated me so much. Ran into more level 6 npcs in that game than I did in the standard game I play in.

To me that is part of the point of E6. Instead of playing as superheroes in a world where no one else can get it done, you are talented or experts. There are lots of experts in the world, and the party is just some of them.

[Ruethgar]

I'm gonna have to say that Magisterial principles would kind of.... invalidate the point of E6.
How would Magisterial principals for only Epic individuals invalidate the point of E6? I will alter it to a feat like with 4th level spells until reasoning is provided.

I wasn't originally going to have Warriors or Adepts in the world, I may add Warriors back in, though not Adepts.

20 Common, 20 Warrior, 40 Expert, 5 Racial, 4 Regional, 1 Other seems a lot more weighted to competent peasants which I suppose would make sense if Gramarie and Magic were relatively common.

There is the issue of favored classes when all but 3 NPC classes are custom and Humans are the main race.

[The Vagabond]

While I don't know much about the Gramire system, I do know something about the Spheres of Power system. And here is what I think will happen;

Vatican casting will be viewed as a dead-end, while Sphere Casting will be more along the lines of quantum mechanics, while Vatican is String Theory. Vatican Casters are relentlessly mocked for following a path that, ultimately, will not lead to any sort of progress. It just kinda stops after level 6, but yet at level 6 a Incanter will play with magic in a thousand different ways, and still get better at their endurance. Wizards just kinda stop progressing at that point, while Incanters can kick ass.

[Yogibear41]

To me that is part of the point of E6. Instead of playing as superheroes in a world where no one else can get it done, you are talented or experts. There are lots of experts in the world, and the party is just some of them.


I agree to a degree, but when even average joe guards, the milk man, and the barber down the street are level 6 it just becomes silly.

[Tvtyrant]

I agree to a degree, but when even average joe guards, the milk man, and the barber down the street are level 6 it just becomes silly.

That is fair. My system for level distribution doesn't even allow for NPC classes over level 5, but does allow for elderly level 5 experts to fill the whole "master craftsmen" theme.

[Ruethgar]

While I don't know much about the Gramire system, I do know something about the Spheres of Power system. And here is what I think will happen;

Vatican casting will be viewed as a dead-end, while Sphere Casting will be more along the lines of quantum mechanics, while Vatican is String Theory. Vatican Casters are relentlessly mocked for following a path that, ultimately, will not lead to any sort of progress. It just kinda stops after level 6, but yet at level 6 a Incanter will play with magic in a thousand different ways, and still get better at their endurance. Wizards just kinda stop progressing at that point, while Incanters can kick ass.

The custom classes would limit you to casting stat modifier +5 talents. The V caster would be outclassed in many areas, but Customize Domain with 4th level spells could make the difference. However it would require much greater system mastery. SoP undoubtedly has a much higher floor making it more viable in most situations. Also, Chaneleon level 4 is a thing here so they could have access to all third level spells.

What are all of the Humans and what should their favorite classes be for population distribution? I probably won't actually use the favored class mechanic, but for population frequency it might be a bit more flavorful.

Deep Imaskari: Scholar
Neanderthal: Beast
Human: Magitechnician
Azurin: Disciple
Elf: Archer
Silverbrow Human: Magician
Teifling: Thief
Aasimar: Guardian
Half Elf: Commander
Underfolk: Cultist
Gensai: Casters(of their elements)
Halflings: Acrobat(small option)
Jotunbrud: Militia

[The Vagabond]

The custom classes would limit you to casting stat modifier +5 talents. I am filled with unending sorrow.


SoP undoubtedly has a much higher floor making it more viable in most situations. Also, Chaneleon level 4 is a thing here so they could have access to all third level spells. Too be honest, SoP is not particularly powerful in comparison to Vatican; Limiting Spherecasting in such a way mostly negates what I said.
I'm just kinda curious as to why you limited spherecasting that way? Couldn't you just ban advanced talents, since Spherecasting is mostly just Magic, only in the form of Feats.

[Zale]

A world where Baccalaureate would be rather interesting. We just assume anything above that is the province of mad sorcerer-kings who wield dark and arcane since (Or PCs).

So looking at them bit by bit:

Alchemetry probably changes the least. It would make alchemical substances much more common; allow people to greatly improve strength of buildings and tools, but it doesn't change the world in a drastic and flashy way.

Arcanodynamics has interesting effects. At this level, it lacks the ability to store power; the easiest ways to generate power are either conditional (Leather inputs draining wind), dependent on pre-existing tech (Iron inputs draining spin) or kind of creepy (Silver inputs draining health). However, they also offer the ability to make healing machines; offer the ability to propel certain kinds of non-Eldrikinetic tech. Leather outputs can blow sailed ships; iron outputs could propel wheeled vehicles. But those are both incapable of storing power on their own, and would require a constant supply from one of the other inputs.

I guess if you just don't care about people's welfare, you could just chain a bunch of people down with a lot of Silver Inputs and sail your wind-boat on the suffering, dwindling life-force of others.

Biollurgy offers the cheapest moral alternative to silver-input slaves. Biostructure paired with silver inputs would offer the easiest and least conditional form of power generation. It also offers ways to deal with living underwater. A chunk of biostructure can turn carbon dioxide into breathable oxygen. This level of BIOY also gives the ability to craft usable items out of biostructure. The uses of semi-living, self-healing, breathing objects can be left up to the reader. Scuba gear seems very possible.

Eldrikinetics offers a much more efficient and direct way of propelling things, as opposed to ARCD's indirect propulsion. Also, because these engines can consume fuel directly (In place of the magical power provided by ARCD transformers), they're much more reliable. I could certainly see ships that use leather input sails and an iron engine as a means of travel, with a stock-pile of wood as a backup for faltering winds. It's actually an improvement on just having sails in general, if more expensive.

Geoccult offers very basic teraforming at this level. A pole can't provide plant life or magical features, but it can change the underlying earth below you. This could allow people to enrich the soil in poorer areas (Deserts both cold and hot, mountain areas). Fueling this would be expensive. It would either require a fair amount of metal or several reliable ARCD transformers- but I'm sure bio-structure or manual labor (Spinning iron transformers) could easily suffice. The price with a reliable power source would mostly be a setup; it would probably pay for itself after a while.

Heuristicism, in addition to allowing you to circuit things together in convoluted ways (As well as allowing you to shift power around for other things) also lets you make universal translators. Very nifty.

Imachination would provide easy access to long-term static illusions, in most senses. It could be a useful artistic route; be much cheaper than building signs. Possibly interesting as a form of clothing as well, or to make your dwelling look nicer.

Kaleidomantics probably adds a lot of stuff that's world-changing for adventurers especially. You can make light-sabers, armor that nothing metal can pierce among other things. Filters have a lot of potential in building and day-to-day life. Blue-filters used in combination with biostructure could make domed underwater cities a definite possibility.

If you don't mind fish falling in from the ceiling.

Yggdratecture, as always, adds lots of !fun! things, including easy-to-make bags of holding, spaces that are bigger on the inside; infinite range teleporters.

The last one is the important bit here, since the spaces it makes are too small to live in; would mostly be for small-scale storage.

The teleporters would require a prepared space on both ends, but once made anyone could just walk in one and take a standard action to show up at the other one. Distance doesn't matter.


So these are things that just Baccalaureate principles can provide. Isn't it exciting?

[Ruethgar]

With Sherecasting limited to 10 or so talents, you can fairly easily get the theme of a character you want without being able to get literally every sphere power in the game, which is what normal E6 allows.

Vatican casting is also severely limited, hell all power is, the classes were originally intended to be fluffy addons to NPC classes via Sculpt Self so there would be a mechanical difference between Expert A and Expert B besides skill point allocation. They developed a lot more over time of course, but the power level has always remained low.

Sphere casting has the ability to instantly define a thematic of a character while having it rarely/never be a bad choice. Vatican casting does not have that, poor spell selection is a much greater threat to your effectiveness compared to taking pretty much any sphere ability and being able to roll with it. That is what I mean by it has a higher floor.

If someone picks the Healing domain and the cantrips Scavenge, Flag, and Resize, they aren't going to have much going for them compared to a sphere caster just picking up the Cantrips feat on its own.

As to the application of Gramarie in Zale's assessment, do note that it will likely only be 101 principals available to the general population through the Extra Credit feat unless Gramarie specialists are common(which by default they wouldn't be). So underwater living and teleportation would sadly be a bit out of reach for most people, but scuba gear and BIOY 101+Silver Transformer engines wouldn't be out of the question given just a few people in town with the necessary feats.

Edit:
Endless Deep Imaskari(Endless): Seekers of ancient knowledge and power, the Imaskari scorn the newer magics in favor of the old. They are the historians of the world and though few in number, are more long lived than even the elves.
5% Scholar
2% Caster(Spellbook needed)
2% Cultist

Hengeyokai(Shifters): (modified animal list)
5% Guardian
2% Beast
2% Disciple

Human: Paragons of innovation and among the most versatile races.
5%Magitechnician
2%Caster
2%Militia

Azurin(Spirit Folk):
5%Disciple
2%Cultist
2%Caster

Elf:
5%Archer
2%Caster
2%Cultist

Kobold(Drakken):
5%Magician
2%Magitechnician
2%Beast

Teifling:
5%Thief
2%Cultist
2%Acrobat

Aasimar:
5%Commander
2%Guardian
2%Disciple

Neverland Fairy(Fae): (in sig)
5%Beast
2%Caster(Nature, Weather)
2%Cultist(Non-Death)

Half-Drow(Drow):
5%Cultist
2%Thief
2%Militia

Gensai:
5%Casters(Elemental)
2%Scholars(Elemental)
2%Militia(Desert Wind new elements)

Halflings:
5%Acrobat
2%Thief
2%Archer

Jotunbrud(Giants): Savage warriors that blend the lines between the physical fury of nature and savagery of humanity.
5%Militia
2%Acrobat
2%Beast