Permanency

[Segev]

The permanency spell has been in the game since at least 1e AD&D. (I have no idea if it's in 4e or not.) It always had a limited list of spells on which it could be used, and often this was a less than satisfactory list. 3e tends to discount the spell as over-priced for how easy it is to permanently dispel. That said, I don't think it's in 5e. In part, I am sure, because 5e has gone out of its way to reduce spell durations and ensure that spell slots must be expended at least daily (with a few exceptions, like mirage arcane, which lasts for 10 days).

That said, is it even possible to inject a spell that makes other spells' durations "permanent" into 5e without breaking the game? If so, how would you go about it?

[busterswd]

That said, is it even possible to inject a spell that makes other spells' durations "permanent"

Yep. There's already metamagic and upscaling with specific spells, and other persistent spells like Teleportation Circle, that will cause very long term effects. You could even use Wish, probably, to alter a much lower level spell.



without breaking the game?

This is where you'd run into trouble. The game is balanced around non-stacking buffs and debuffs. Even if you made a restriction such as "non concentration, only", you'd have spells like Blindness and Freedom of Movement that would be way too good if they were always on.

As much lauded as 5e's balance is, it still breaks as you approach 20. Adding ways to hasten and increase that gap would probably not be a good thing.

[DireSickFish]

A lot of the permanency effects have been tacked into the individual spells themselves. Teleportation circle is the most cited example, after casting it every day for long enough the circle is permanent. Nystrals Magic Aura is another such spell and my players have found it quite fun for making magic fakes that read as the real deal.

[SharkForce]

permanency has always had a limited list of spells it would work on. so long as you stick to the limited list and make sure it makes sense for 5e's rules, i don't foresee any major issues.

so, for example, permanent enlarge or reduce... probably not a big deal (i think that's traditionally been a spell you could make permanent). permanent bless? not gonna happen any time soon.

[Segev]

The list from 3.5's SRD of what can be made permanent by the spell is (with minimum caster level to make it happen, as well as an XP cost...which wasn't present in 2e and earlier, because the idea of XP costs was introduced in 3e):

Personal Only
Arcane sight 11th 1,500 XP
Comprehend languages 9th 500 XP
Darkvision 10th 1,000 XP
Detect magic 9th 500 XP
Read magic 9th 500 XP
See invisibility 10th 1,000 XP
Tongues 11th 1,500 XP


Can Be Made Permanent on Others
Enlarge person 9th 500 XP
Magic fang 9th 500 XP
Magic fang, greater 11th 1,500 XP
Reduce person 9th 500 XP
Resistance 9th 500 XP
Telepathic bond 13th 2,500 XP



The one that made me think of it today was actually mirage arcane. Sure, you can cast it only once every 10 days, but it also would be nice to be able to fire-and-forget it. The up-side (for characters) and down-side (for balance) would be that it unbounds how far you can spread your illusory terrain. (Of course, you can abuse simulacrum to do this, too, as long as you have at least two 17th-level casters. One wishes for a simulacrum of the other, and then that simulacrum wishes for another simulacrum of the same one, and so on, until enough simulacra have been wished up that they can sustain 1/30 the number of 1-mile-square zones you want covered in illusory terrain. Then the second wizard is free to use his own 9th level slot for whatever he likes.)

Having it remove Concentration would be potent, too. A permanency'd project image would be awesome to have around. (I still find it awfully disappointing as a Concentration-duration spell, due to how little it can do and how little it lets you do while having it around due to that.)

[SharkForce]

you can make permanent illusionary terrain. just takes a long time to alter a large area. but major image can be made permanent, and mirage arcane is basically a bunch of major images put together :P

[Temperjoke]

I can see arguments for and against it. I mean, it'd be another tool that DMs could have their NPCs use. At the same time, I think that it could make it too easy for PCs to have world-altering effects or distract from the main game. If nothing else, they'd constantly be asking if they could have such-and-such be made permanent. Having the option built into certain spells, like what 5e does, seems to be a better compromise.

[Segev]

you can make permanent illusionary terrain. just takes a long time to alter a large area. but major image can be made permanent, and mirage arcane is basically a bunch of major images put together :PNo, mirage arcane is quite different, though more powerful in what it does, than major image. Mirage arcane is terrain-and-structures only, can't be altered (absent Malleable Illusions) after cast, but affects all senses (including touch) and is actually solid enough that in affecting touch it can be interacted with. Structures conjured or modified with it actually can be entered, climbed around in, and stood upon. Difficult terrain created is actually thorny and hard to cross. Even more, terrain made clear by it becomes open and clear (thus causing things that ARE really there to be invisible and intangible!). Major image can't remove things that are there and can't make things solid enough to interact with physically.


I can see arguments for and against it. I mean, it'd be another tool that DMs could have their NPCs use. At the same time, I think that it could make it too easy for PCs to have world-altering effects or distract from the main game. If nothing else, they'd constantly be asking if they could have such-and-such be made permanent. Having the option built into certain spells, like what 5e does, seems to be a better compromise.
This is true.

[EvanescentHero]

I can see arguments for and against it. I mean, it'd be another tool that DMs could have their NPCs use. At the same time, I think that it could make it too easy for PCs to have world-altering effects or distract from the main game. If nothing else, they'd constantly be asking if they could have such-and-such be made permanent. Having the option built into certain spells, like what 5e does, seems to be a better compromise.

As a DM, I find it quite liberating to not limit my NPCs to what the rules allow PCs to do, so if a situation called for a permanent version of a spell that can't normally be made permanent, I'd have no problem just saying "This is magic you've never heard of." For example, my world has a city in which no attack of any kind can be made within city limits. Do the rules allow that? No, but I wanted a safe place for the less-accepted races to be able to settle down and feel safe, without bigots being able to come in and slaughter everyone. There are other safeguards as well, both natural and magical, but I thought basically a widespread sanctuary spell would be a good place to start.

[soldersbushwack]

The Permanency spell is redundant with rules for magic items. There just needs to be extra rules for magic items permanently attached to people or objects like enchantments, runes and tattoos. That said, 5th edition does not have good magic item rules for high magic settings and so some homebrewing needs to be done for that case.