retrain spell mastery for higher level spells?

[magicalmagicman]

If you grab spell mastery at level 1, can you retrain it to master level 9 spells? I need some RAW proof.

PHB2 says you just need to show the DM that you can get the feat at that level. Spells known are spells in your spellbook, and technically you can get a level 9 spell in your spellbook.

[Andezzar]

Nope, The retraining process only allows you to exchange one feat for a different feat. No matter what spell you select the feat still is Spell Mastery.

BTW this would have been a good question for the Simple Q&A thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?460263-Simple-RAW-thread-for-3-5-31-By-now-your-question-has-probably-been-answered).

[magicalmagicman]

Nope, The retraining process only allows you to exchange one feat for a different feat. No matter what spell you select the feat still is Spell Mastery.

BTW this would have been a good question for the Simple Q&A thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?460263-Simple-RAW-thread-for-3-5-31-By-now-your-question-has-probably-been-answered).

That's what I meant. Lets say at level 1 you choose spell mastery and choose the spells: magic missile, grease, shield, and burning hands. At level 19, can you retrain spell mastery to grab the feat, spell mastery, except choose the spells: ice assassin, wish, shapechange, and time stop?

[Andezzar]

As I said earlier, it is still the same feat, so you cannot change it. You could however change it in one level to some other feat like improved initiative and then change it to spell mastery with different spell choices in the next level. At that point you can select spells based on your current abilities.
The less time consuming method would be to use DCFS.

[magicalmagicman]

As I said earlier, it is still the same feat, so you cannot change it. You could however change it in one level to some other feat like improved initiative and then change it to spell mastery with different spell choices in the next level. At that point you can select spells based on your current abilities.
The less time consuming method would be to use DCFS.

1. What is DCFS?
2. I can't find a RAW rule saying that I can't exchange a feat for the exact same feat.

[LTwerewolf]

1. Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle
2. It says you're trading a feat for a different feat.

You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected
for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only
must your character meet them in his current state, but you
must also be able to show that he met them at the time you
chose the previous feat.

[magicalmagicman]

1. Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle
2. It says you're trading a feat for a different feat.

You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected
for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only
must your character meet them in his current state, but you
must also be able to show that he met them at the time you
chose the previous feat.



You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat.

It technically says another feat, not different. Hmm........

Worst case scenario I have to retrain feats twice.

However, it stands that when I do select spell mastery again, I can choose spells of 9th level? This is the only part that matters.

[Andezzar]

Yes, because the available spells are options of the feat, not prerequisites.

DCFS: Cast Embrace the Dark Chaos on yourself to exchange any one feat to an Abyssal Heritor Feat, then cast Shun the Dark Chaos to exchange one Abyssal Heritor Feat for any other feat (for which you meet the prerequisites now). That procedure costs a couple of XP.

[magicalmagicman]

DCFS: Cast Embrace the Dark Chaos on yourself to exchange any one feat to an Abyssal Heritor Feat, then cast Shun the Dark Chaos to exchange one Abyssal Heritor Feat for any other feat (for which you meet the prerequisites now). That procedure costs a couple of XP.

Thank you. 500xp to change my spellmastery choices is nothing. In addition, I believe I can use my new INT modifier.

[LTwerewolf]

It technically says another feat, not different. Hmm........



You understand the definition of another is "referring to a different person or thing" right? They're synonymous terms.

If spell mastery is taken at higher levels, then yes, it can be used on higher level things.

[magicalmagicman]

You understand the definition of another is "referring to a different person or thing" right? They're synonymous terms.

If spell mastery is taken at higher levels, then yes, it can be used on higher level things.

Actually how about weapon proficiencies? Are you saying you can't swap exotic weapon proficiency: bastard sword for exotic weapon proficiency: spiked chain? Technically both of them are the same feat

[LTwerewolf]

For the purposes of retraining you cannot, no. If it were done the same way as things such as improved critical (where each improved critical is a different feat) then it would be possible. It's one of the reason the chaos shuffle is used, because retraining makes you jump through hoops and the shuffle still costs something, but isn't nearly as irritating.

[magicalmagicman]

For the purposes of retraining you cannot, no. If it were done the same way as things such as improved critical (where each improved critical is a different feat) then it would be possible. It's one of the reason the chaos shuffle is used, because retraining makes you jump through hoops and the shuffle still costs something, but isn't nearly as irritating.

Liar. Every article I found (which is 5minutes of searching) considers DCFS as TO that is 1 level below pun-pun, and that if you do it, the DMG itself will grow wings and attack you. XD

[LTwerewolf]

When you combine it with shuffling all of your feats and recouping the loss with a thought bottle, it certainly is. It's nowhere near as broken as "regular things" like shapechange, gate, etc. I've seen it used at several tables to fix a character that's just kind of broken and doesn't work.

[magicalmagicman]

When you combine it with shuffling all of your feats and recouping the loss with a thought bottle, it certainly is. It's nowhere near as broken as "regular things" like shapechange, gate, etc. I've seen it used at several tables to fix a character that's just kind of broken and doesn't work.

Well there's your problem. Thought bottle. Well, I'd like to agree with you, without thought bottle, I'd say it is kind of tame.

A DM that allows Dweomerkeeper for free wishes would definitely allow DCFS right?

[LTwerewolf]

Well there's your problem. Thought bottle. Well, I'd like to agree with you, without thought bottle, I'd say it is kind of tame.

A DM that allows Dweomerkeeper for free wishes would definitely allow DCFS right?

A DM that allows dweomerkeeper for free wishes is probably going to allow anything at all unless they have inconsistent standards.

[magicalmagicman]

A DM that allows dweomerkeeper for free wishes is probably going to allow anything at all unless they have inconsistent standards.

He's the type that says "everything is allowed but don't abuse it."

If I start using free wishes 4 times a day to create a simulacrum army of 36hd monsters (halved) he'd have a problem.

But if I use it to cast normal spells then I'm fine.

[Andezzar]

For the purposes of retraining you cannot, no. If it were done the same way as things such as improved critical (where each improved critical is a different feat) then it would be possible.Unfortunatately Improved Critical is only one feat, just as Exotic Weapon Proficiency:

You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.

You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.if either were multiple different feats you could not take them multiple times, or at least it would not make any sense.