[3.5, Optimization Challenge] The Stalwart Battle Sorcerer

[Rizban]

So, here's the challenge: How would you build a character that utilizes a Sorcerer with both the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) [UA/SRD] and Stalwart Sorcerer [CM] (-1 spell known, +2hp/level, 2 bonus feats) alternate class features?

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is the star of the show diva here, so the following rules should apply.

The build must make use of Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, taking a minimum of 1 level in the class, and its abilities should be meaningful to the build in some way.
Any other Alternative Class Features are fine, so long as you take both Battle and Stalwart.
If the build uses other spellcasting/psionics/etc., it shouldn't have a CL or max spell level higher that that gained from SBS.
SBS should be taken before any levels of a PrC.
Build should be playable at "all" levels, but it should at least be functional at the milestones (5th, 10th, 15th).
The lower the Level Adjustment/Racial Hit Dice, the better. +0 LA/0 RHD is optimum.
Using Leadership and similar abilities to get someone else to fight for you is bad form.
Stick to 1st party 3.X material.
No gestalt or generics classes. Flaws/Traits whatever else is fine.

[HammeredWharf]

No point in taking those features if you're not gishing it out. So I'd go into Swiftblade and use spells primarily to buff myself. I once had a pretty good Iaijutsu-based swiftblade build that would work fine with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, although it works better with a normal wizard. Then, once Swiftblade is finished, go into Abjurant Champion for the last 4 levels.

So SBS 6 / Swiftblade 10 / Abjurant Champion 4.

[d20familiar]

Another way is being a Karsite (old thread link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226048-Character-reoptimization-Karsite-sorcerer)) and finding as many unorthodox usages for your spellslots as possible.

[CozJa]

Exluding things like Polymorph and other auto-optimizing cheesy choices, a tentative build, more flavourful than optimized could be: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer4/Barbarian1/Rage Mage10/Abjurant Champion5

Clearly it would be way more sword than sorcery.
You start with 4 levels of sorcerer and 1 of Barbarian (Or 1/1/3, depends on the game)
in that way at level 5 there's a character that can smack people around (4BAB, a good hp and decent Armor abilities). Best thing is to use the Barbarian variant granting Pounce for more damage at higher levels.
Then going rage mage lets the character optimize his little number of spells known (A good thing is to get al the "primal" line of spells, maybe with the aid of some eternal wand and going Fireblood dwarf for dragonblood and dwarf sorcerer racial level1 or dragonblooded racial level1 as needed)

Rage Mage gets tireless rage some levels before pure barbarian, plus autoquicken during spell rage that can be very useful with the right choice of spells. I think that around levels 9-11 is the worst part of the build, because it's very so-so in everything it does.
From 15 to 20 it can add more power, ending up with 7th level spell(s) to use, a High BAB that can become Full BAB and the ability to stack some interesting caster level and DC on his spells.

For equipment I'd take the Instruments of the Blood Gift set and maybe the Raiment of the Four to have more options (MIC)

Feats I don't know... maybe Reckless Rage (could arguably work with spell rage) and the classic charge related feats if going the pounce route.

[Flickerdart]

I wouldn't advise multiclassing - you gave up a bunch of spells known for chassis improvements, why ditch your chassis?

[Telonius]

I'm thinking Stalwart Battle Sorcerer/Dread Witch/Abjurant Champion would be a decent fit. Dreadful Wrath (requires a particular Faerun human), Fell Frighten, Heighten Spell, and Combat Casting would be the key feats. The free martial proficiency from Stalwart (and better BAB from Battle) allows easier qualification for Abjurant Champion, and Battle Sorcerer puts Intimidate on your skill list. Dread Witch bumps up the DC of fear spells, and adds your Charisma to will saves, and lets you affect normally-immune things with your Fear spells. Abjurant Champion lets you wade out into melee with better defenses up.

[Waazraath]

For simplicities sake, and what Flickerdart already mentioned, and not to waste a lot of feats on prereqs, I'd go stalward battle sorcerer 15 / abjurant champion 5 (7 - 5 - 8).

The obvious spells would include wraithstrike, alter self, polymorph, wings of cover, heroics, shield, and other self buffs. Some other stuff to include:
- arcane preparation, for greater luminous armor; +13 AC, +17 in melee, with another +9 from shield, is just too good to pass up on.
- feats: a bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium, to increase spells known (earth, probably), and power attack, in any case
- use self buffs and combat feats and go war troll on 'em (or earlier dwarven ancestor, when outsider)

This is rather standard and boring though. A little more interesing approach would be to add caster level increases to this, and raise caster level for a number of fire/evocation spell. With 2 flaws, this isn't too hard (just get spell thematics and bloodline of fire from PGtF), for a +3CL on burning hands; later add fiery burst. Since you can afford to stand in melee, close range cones and bursts are safe enough to use, like greater fire burst (15d8, 10ft radius). Use a little meta magic enhancers on this to quicken and / or empower, AND go war troll on your enemies. Think this can be a nice build, magick melee with extra fire tricks.

[Rizban]

No point in taking those features if you're not gishing it out. So I'd go into Swiftblade and use spells primarily to buff myself. I once had a pretty good Iaijutsu-based swiftblade build that would work fine with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, although it works better with a normal wizard. Then, once Swiftblade is finished, go into Abjurant Champion for the last 4 levels.

So SBS 6 / Swiftblade 10 / Abjurant Champion 4.Simple and straightforward. Probably the easiest option.


Another way is being a Karsite (old thread link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226048-Character-reoptimization-Karsite-sorcerer)) and finding as many unorthodox usages for your spellslots as possible.That's certainly an interesting take on things. Enjoyed the read, but I doubt I'd end up using that in play. The fluff for it would be amazing, but the +2 LA hurts.


Exluding things like Polymorph and other auto-optimizing cheesy choices, a tentative build, more flavourful than optimized could be: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer4/Barbarian1/Rage Mage10/Abjurant Champion5

Clearly it would be way more sword than sorcery.
You start with 4 levels of sorcerer and 1 of Barbarian (Or 1/1/3, depends on the game)
in that way at level 5 there's a character that can smack people around (4BAB, a good hp and decent Armor abilities). Best thing is to use the Barbarian variant granting Pounce for more damage at higher levels.
Then going rage mage lets the character optimize his little number of spells known (A good thing is to get al the "primal" line of spells, maybe with the aid of some eternal wand and going Fireblood dwarf for dragonblood and dwarf sorcerer racial level1 or dragonblooded racial level1 as needed)The primal line is definitely interesting. 24 buffs without need for Persistent. With limited spellcasting and a gish focus, these might be worth it.


Rage Mage gets tireless rage some levels before pure barbarian, plus autoquicken during spell rage that can be very useful with the right choice of spells. I think that around levels 9-11 is the worst part of the build, because it's very so-so in everything it does.
From 15 to 20 it can add more power, ending up with 7th level spell(s) to use, a High BAB that can become Full BAB and the ability to stack some interesting caster level and DC on his spells.I'd probably suggest interspersing the Abjurant Champion levels in with Rage Mage to pick up the abilities while they're relevant.


I wouldn't advise multiclassing - you gave up a bunch of spells known for chassis improvements, why ditch your chassis?That is a valid point. It's especially bad if you're multiclassing into something that would grant you all the proficiencies you picked up too, but I won't rule anything out.


I'm thinking Stalwart Battle Sorcerer/Dread Witch/Abjurant Champion would be a decent fit. Dreadful Wrath (requires a particular Faerun human), Fell Frighten, Heighten Spell, and Combat Casting would be the key feats. The free martial proficiency from Stalwart (and better BAB from Battle) allows easier qualification for Abjurant Champion, and Battle Sorcerer puts Intimidate on your skill list. Dread Witch bumps up the DC of fear spells, and adds your Charisma to will saves, and lets you affect normally-immune things with your Fear spells. Abjurant Champion lets you wade out into melee with better defenses up.That's definitely interesting.
Instead of Dreadful Wrath, I might suggest going Dragonblood Sorcerer for free Draconic Heritage then picking up Draconic Presence. True it's limited to just spells, but it doesn't have the same 1/day/creature limitation of Dreadful Wrath and doesn't increase the spell level like Fell Frighten.

Dragonblood Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/Dread Witch 4/Abjurant Champion 5 gets you to level 13, leaving 7 more levels to play with.

[Rizban]

For simplicities sake, and what Flickerdart already mentioned, and not to waste a lot of feats on prereqs, I'd go stalward battle sorcerer 15 / abjurant champion 5 (7 - 5 - 8). [/QUOTE]Very simple.


The obvious spells would include wraithstrike, alter self, polymorph, wings of cover, heroics, shield, and other self buffs. Some other stuff to include:
- arcane preparation, for greater luminous armor; +13 AC, +17 in melee, with another +9 from shield, is just too good to pass up on.
- feats: a bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium, to increase spells known (earth, probably), and power attack, in any case
- use self buffs and combat feats and go war troll on 'em (or earlier dwarven ancestor, when outsider)Very interesting. I'll second the suggestion on DraCom bloodline feats.


This is rather standard and boring though. A little more interesing approach would be to add caster level increases to this, and raise caster level for a number of fire/evocation spell. With 2 flaws, this isn't too hard (just get spell thematics and bloodline of fire from PGtF), for a +3CL on burning hands; later add fiery burst. Since you can afford to stand in melee, close range cones and bursts are safe enough to use, like greater fire burst (15d8, 10ft radius). Use a little meta magic enhancers on this to quicken and / or empower, AND go war troll on your enemies. Think this can be a nice build, magick melee with extra fire tricks.Interesting. Piling on boosters to get the most out of your limited spells seems almost mandatory.

[Grim Reader]

I wouldn't advise multiclassing - you gave up a bunch of spells known for chassis improvements, why ditch your chassis?

This really. Neither the Stalwart extra hit points nor the Battle chassis carries over to any PrCs. However, the reduced spell list does. The more you PrC out, the less you get for the spells you traded out.

I'd go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 19/Sand Shaper 1. Use the Desert Insight spells as the backbone of casting, and the spells you do get to pick to fill in holes in the list. Grab some feats like a heritage feat from Dragon Compendium, etc for the high levels where Desert Insight is skimpy.

Generally pick flexible spells like Summonings and the Shadow line.

[Renen]

You can also try expanding your spell list back up abit:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2777.0

[HammeredWharf]

I wouldn't advise multiclassing - you gave up a bunch of spells known for chassis improvements, why ditch your chassis?

I'd argue the proficiencies are the real bonus here. The two HPs/lvl won't change much, while the extra BAB is worse than what you'd get from a gish PRC. On the other hand, the proficiencies save you from spending a feat or being an elf. Both ACFs suck no matter what, but at least if you commit to fightan magic you end up a fightan mage, while otherwise you end up a normal mage with extra regrets.

[Coidzor]

Using Leadership and similar abilities to get someone else to fight for you is bad form.



What about Mounts?

[Rizban]

You can also try expanding your spell list back up abit:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2777.0Seems important.


I'd argue the proficiencies are the real bonus here. The two HPs/lvl won't change much, while the extra BAB is worse than what you'd get from a gish PRC. On the other hand, the proficiencies save you from spending a feat or being an elf. Both ACFs suck no matter what, but at least if you commit to fightan magic you end up a fightan mage, while otherwise you end up a normal mage with extra regrets.That's another good point.


What about Mounts?Mounts are fine. It's building a whole second character that's the problem... though I suppose if all your secondary and tertiary characters are SBSs too... :smalltongue:

[Nifft]

Is the Spellhoard draconic psychosis 1st party or 2nd party?

I ask because Spellhoard psychosis removes a Dragon's Sorcerer casting and replaces it with Wizard casting, so you could be a d8+2 hp / .75 BAB / two-proficiency Dragon Wizard -- and it's generally argued that since you lose your Sorcerer spellcasting altogether, the Stalwart & Battle ACF sacrifices are instead free gifts.

[Rizban]

Is the Spellhoard draconic psychosis 1st party or 2nd party?

I ask because Spellhoard psychosis removes a Dragon's Sorcerer casting and replaces it with Wizard casting, so you could be a d8+2 hp / .75 BAB / two-proficiency Dragon Wizard -- and it's generally argued that since you lose your Sorcerer spellcasting altogether, the Stalwart & Battle ACF sacrifices are instead free gifts.
Dragon psychoses are from Dragon Magazine 313. Looking at it, I believe it only replaces a dragon's innate spellcasting, not that from the Sorcerer class.

[Darrin]

How about...

Race: Kobold.
Stub: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4
Feats: Earth Bloodline (1st), Draconic Reservoir (3rd), Extra Granted Maneuver (6th), Acidic Splatter (9th), Minor Shapeshift (12th), Combat Casting (15th), Martial Study/Stance (18th)

BAB +19, 9th level spells (Greater Draconic Rite of Passage), 7th level manuevers.

[Pyromancer999]

Would Battle Sorcerer still qualify for racial substitution levels and ACFs? I would think it would.

In that case, a few possibly interesting things:

-Obviously, make use of the previously noted link to expand your spell list, and Abjurant Champion is a solid Choice.

-Arcane Strike is interesting, and not a bad choice considering you have a lot of spell slots to use up. Edit: Reserve feats, if carefully chosen, can give you a good bang for your buck, like Minor Shapeshift.

-There's an ACF in Complete Champion that lets you swap out spells known for a domain. A good one would be Mysticism, as it does have some of the good Cleric self-buffs, and the Domain power isn't too shabby, and it's nice that the power keys off Charisma. If permitted, Planar Domains might be good to look at, as it essentially restores you to full spells known for a Sorcerer, albeit with roughly half of your spells being determined by the Planar Domain you take. Elysium grants you the ability to smite, so that's something.

[Rizban]

How about...

Race: Kobold.
Stub: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4
Feats: Earth Bloodline (1st), Draconic Reservoir (3rd), Extra Granted Maneuver (6th), Acidic Splatter (9th), Minor Shapeshift (12th), Combat Casting (15th), Martial Study/Stance (18th)

BAB +19, 9th level spells (Greater Draconic Rite of Passage), 7th level manuevers.Very nice. I like it!


Would Battle Sorcerer still qualify for racial substitution levels and ACFs? I would think it would.

In that case, a few possibly interesting things:

-Obviously, make use of the previously noted link to expand your spell list, and Abjurant Champion is a solid Choice.

-Arcane Strike is interesting, and not a bad choice considering you have a lot of spell slots to use up. Edit: Reserve feats, if carefully chosen, can give you a good bang for your buck, like Minor Shapeshift.

-There's an ACF in Complete Champion that lets you swap out spells known for a domain. A good one would be Mysticism, as it does have some of the good Cleric self-buffs, and the Domain power isn't too shabby, and it's nice that the power keys off Charisma. If permitted, Planar Domains might be good to look at, as it essentially restores you to full spells known for a Sorcerer, albeit with roughly half of your spells being determined by the Planar Domain you take. Elysium grants you the ability to smite, so that's something.Interesting find, assuming you can take a planar domain. I believe the rules state that a planar domain counts as two domains, so I'm not sure you can legally select one using the Domain Access ACF.

[Pyromancer999]

Interesting find, assuming you can take a planar domain. I believe the rules state that a planar domain counts as two domains, so I'm not sure you can legally select one using the Domain Access ACF.

Yes, hence why I mention those are good "if permitted". Still, there are plenty good normal domains, like Mysticism, as previously mentioned.

Another thing I forgot to put down is that having less spells means having a greater spell slot to spell ratio. So, might be good for a build that can use metamagic with what few spells they have. Like Maybe Persist Spell for buffs.