Anti-high-tier non-nerfing houserules for high-level game?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Game balance becomes a major issue at level 10 and beyond, especially when you have some players that enjoy lots of plusses, while others prefer to build on a specific theme. I've been attempting to make a list of Houserules that both restores balance somewhat so that people can play fighters at high levels, and keeps that list no longer than one page, and doesn't ban/nerf things left and right and this is what I've come up with for a campaign that would have normally started at level 17;


1) Instead of level 17, players get 68 points to spend on creating their character.

2) Tier 1 classes cost 4 pp/level, Tier 2 cost 3 pp/level, Tier 3 cost 2 pp/level, and Tier 4+ cost 1 pp/level. Max total level is 50.

3) Everyone starts with the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). Levelling/item bonuses as normal. Extra increases cost 1 pp/increase.

4) Normal feat progression. Fractional BAB/save progression. Epic progressions as normal.

5) Everyone starts with any 10 nonepic items. They can't be custom, intelligent, or artifacts. MIC rules for combining items apply, max cost 200k

6) All monsters have HD equal to 3x CR, unless already higher. Applying appropriate feats/skills/other increases up to the DM.

7) Controlled targets cannot use special abilities or special attacks, though they retain special qualities.





The intent of the rules is to allow for a high-level game that feels epic, without casters overshadowing everyone else. Where Conan can slay monsters and beat up wizards, and where a Balrog doesn't die from a single round of concerted effort by a typical caster. Do they accomplish this to at least a medium-high level of optimization, or will a typical CoDzilla stomp over noncasters?

[heavyfuel]

You can have a lv 22 Tier 2. They have Epic Spells, and therefore are far more broken than any Tier 1 at lv 17.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

You can have a lv 22 Tier 2. They have Epic Spells, and therefore are far more broken than any Tier 1 at lv 17.

True. Heck, you could just be a Healer 50 (nothing stopping a Healer from getting epic spells, is there?) and stomp everyone.

...Points for making the Healer into a competitive option.

[eggynack]

Beyond that issue, it's hard for me to see how a 68th level non-caster is getting anywhere close to parity with the caster with 9ths.

[Cosi]

Game balance becomes a major issue at level 10 and beyond, especially when you have some players that enjoy lots of plusses, while others prefer to build on a specific theme. I've been attempting to make a list of Houserules that both restores balance somewhat so that people can play fighters at high levels, and keeps that list no longer than one page, and doesn't ban/nerf things left and right and this is what I've come up with for a campaign that would have normally started at level 17;

The way to do this is to get your group together and negotiate a target power level and set of bans that keeps everyone on the same page. No set of houserules will be as effective as getting the people who will play the game together and asking what they want out of the game. Particularly not with the constraints you've set yourself.


1) Instead of level 17, players get 68 points to spend on creating their character.

2) Tier 1 classes cost 4 pp/level, Tier 2 cost 3 pp/level, Tier 3 cost 2 pp/level, and Tier 4+ cost 1 pp/level. Max total level is 50.

What do PrCs cost?

Also, Beguiler/Dread Necromancer 34 seems pretty insane. Especially if PrCs are allowed. Maybe (with PrCs) Druid 1/Wild Shape Ranger X/Warshaper 5/Planar Shepherd (The Battlefield) 9 to multi-shift between Demons, Devils, and Archons for absurd SLA access. Depends what PrCs cost.


7) Controlled targets cannot use special abilities or special attacks, though they retain special qualities.

That should be more rigorous. Is using planar binding to negotiate with something "control"? What about if I negotiate the service "obey any reasonable command in the manner most consistent with my intent for X days"? Is someone who is Helpful controlled? Fanatic? Under the effect of charm monster?


Where Conan can slay monsters and beat up wizards, and where a Balrog doesn't die from a single round of concerted effort by a typical caster. Do they accomplish this to at least a medium-high level of optimization, or will a typical CoDzilla stomp over noncasters?

The reason Fighters blow at high level isn't because Wizards are too good, it is because Fighter suck. They don't have the abilities they need to matter, so they don't matter. All you've done is skew things so that the best casters are Sorcerers/Beguilers/Dread Necromancers who use Epic Spellcasting and/or pimp out their spell lists. That's new but I hesitate to call it better.

[AnachroNinja]

Using the elite array does way more harm to melee characters then casters, even with the extra start boosts from being higher level.

[Gnaeus]

True. Heck, you could just be a Healer 50 (nothing stopping a Healer from getting epic spells, is there?) and stomp everyone.

...Points for making the Healer into a competitive option.

And Truenamer!

[ExLibrisMortis]

Monsters having 3 HD per CR means that all saves go up at least 1 point per CR, with a typical bad save at CR 17 around +17 (51 HD undead fortitude save, no other bonuses), to a good save of about +42 (same undead's will save, with 30 wisdom, and a +5 cloak of resistance). This will pretty much nerf any abilities targeting saves. That's mostly casters, but there are some melee options, mainly in Tome of Battle.

The same HD bloat will increase base attack, to a minimum of +25 at CR 17, which will make AC less meaningful than it is now (which may not be much, but still...). It will also increase certain forms of SR (drow), and caster levels on racial SLAs, making SR either very strong (if monsters use it), or pathetically weak (if PCs use it).

The counter on the PC's side is probably to go [any number of t4-5 dips you care for] 17/psion 17, which costs as much as wizard 17, but comes with an extra 17 HD (and +4 ML, just from Practiced Manifester). So while you may have nerfed t1s fairly well, the t2s are still pretty good, and tier 3s can go nuts (I originally had beguiler/rainbow servant/incantatrix in there, but I decided that RS probably costs 4 points per level).

I'm sure you can adjust the numbers to make it fit, but this is not an easy fix at all, and I think that, when you end up working this out completely, it'll be more than one page long.

[heavyfuel]

True. Heck, you could just be a Healer 50 (nothing stopping a Healer from getting epic spells, is there?) and stomp everyone.

...Points for making the Healer into a competitive option.


And Truenamer!

I didn't mention those because it'ss my understanding that they go from crap at to TO at high levels. So I assumed OP would count them at least as Tier 1 for this. Or maybe not.

[Hamste]

I didn't mention those because it'ss my understanding that they go from crap at to TO at high levels. So I assumed OP would count them at least as Tier 1 for this. Or maybe not.

Truenamer if I remember correctly doesn't even have a tier because it varies so much depending on how well optimized the skill check is.

Assuming epic spells are not a thing it really depends on how much prc cost. Rainbow servant warmage with level 9 spells is just deadly (Also considerably better than healer, both can be level 50 using this points system. Even using the prc tier list for it you can still get as high as level 48). A couple of notes, the system really punishes capped blasting, capped healing and linear buffs (For example flat +1d6 or capped +5 ac) as the monsters are all super accurate damage sponges from the large HD. You may want to consider removing the caps off certain blasting and healing spells or raise the cap otherwise the 50 hd fighter with 30 con (For about 779.5 hitpoints, this may actually be a low estimate) will be sitting around an hour while their hit points come back from fast healing (Actually, if they go down to zero and only have fast healing 5 it takes them 15.59 minutes to get back up to full. Woe be to any one who forgets fast healing as I can almost guarantee you that the cleric didn't prepare enough heal spells to heal you back up) and people who want to play blasters have to make ubermetamagic monstrosities just to do noticeable damage to enemies. Linear buffs being bad tend to be ok simply because there are enough force multiplier buffs (Like haste) that it doesn't hurt buffers that much.

[eggynack]

Truenamer if I remember correctly doesn't even have a tier because it varies so much depending on how well optimized the skill check is.

Kinda, but the tiering isn't really going to go over 4, so the specifics don't matter much. If we're being realistic, no discrepancy in tiering matters overmuch unless it gets you into or out of tier 1, at least when assessing the system's breaking points.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would go for another idea to solve the problem. (note, not tested^^)

Gestalt characters

Force every player to pick one side of his classes as non caster only and casting classes for the other side.

This lets the regular fighter become a gish and the regular caster can either go gish or use some more skillish non caster classes to expand his abilities (pushing his (social, knowledge martial)skills). Imho this closes the gab for high lvl games because everybody is some kind of caster. would fit the high magic fantasy theme d&d is based on.

edit: note that classes like Paladin & Ranger should count as casting class. This enables options like Fighter/Rogue // Ranger or Fighter // Paladin.

[Gnaeus]

I would go for another idea to solve the problem. (note, not tested^^)

Gestalt characters

Force every player to pick one side of his classes as non caster only and casting classes for the other side.

This lets the regular fighter become a gish and the regular caster can either go gish or use some more skillish non caster classes to expand his abilities (pushing his (social, knowledge martial)skills). Imho this closes the gab for high lvl games because everybody is some kind of caster. would fit the high magic fantasy theme d&d is based on.

edit: note that classes like Paladin & Ranger should count as casting class. This enables options like Fighter/Rogue // Ranger or Fighter // Paladin.

Not really seeing much difference in gap between fighter and wizard and fighter//paladin and monk//wizard. If anything, the monk//wizard has a wider power gap.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You can have a lvl 22 Tier 2. They have Epic Spells, and therefore are far more broken than any Tier 1 at lvl 17.
The alternative treasure/advancement means PCs can't begin with researched epic spells of higher than 0 DC, while the clause about controlled creatures shoots down easy rituals. Thus broken epic spells, while still a possibility, have to be researched and cast during the campaign and without easily sidestepping the costs.


Is using planar binding to negotiate with something "control"? Is someone who is Helpful controlled? Fanatic? Under the effect of charm monster?
No. Control is a game term and the spell/ability you're using will bring it up, such as in Dominate, Gate, Ice Assassin and so on and so forth. But hey, if you can get a high-level caster to do your bidding with mind-affecting enchantments, you probably deserve their help.


What do PrCs cost?
According to their Tier. And if they change a base class' Tier, costs change accordingly. Rainbow Servant Warmage doesn't get a free lunch.


the system really punishes capped blasting, capped healing and linear buffs
No such thing as capped blasting or healing with Metamagic. Both for them and for buffs you actually have to expend resources to win a fight now. As in, several spell slots or other abilities to get a victory.



it's hard for me to see how a 68th level non-caster is getting anywhere close to parity with the caster with 9ths.
Monsters are no longer killable with one attack, forcing casters to both expend resources and use tactics to handle them; no more I-Win buttons. Then non-casters are buffed to match monsters so they can contribute while the casters do their thing.
For non-monster challenges, expect similar increase of toughness. I.e. a locked door won't be a typical obstacle. It will be a door with ten locks, made of layered sheets of material, and several indirect traps instead. You could have the rogue unlock it and disarm the traps, a tank break it and survive the traps, or the caster cast five Knock spells and one anti-trap spell or five Disintegrates and one anti-trap spell to get rid of it. Bypassing it isn't an option if it and the walls are ghost-touch and the other side is under Forbiddance, unless someone is willing to burn a Wish/Miracle.



not tested
Anyone willing to help with a playtest?

[eggynack]

Monsters are no longer killable with one attack, forcing casters to both expend resources and use tactics to handle them; no more I-Win buttons.
I-Win buttons don't really take the form of single attacks at 17. It more often takes the form of stuff like shapechange and/or infinite wishes, things seemingly unimpacted. Given that mudanes were already capable of killing most things in one shot, this doesn't substantially alter their offensive output. Basically, you’re upping the defense of mundanes marginally and reducing the offense of casters way more marginally.

[bahamut920]

1) Instead of level 17, players get 68 points to spend on creating their character.

2) Tier 1 classes cost 4 pp/level, Tier 2 cost 3 pp/level, Tier 3 cost 2 pp/level, and Tier 4+ cost 1 pp/level. Max total level is 50.
Except this doesn't actually do anything to actually fix the problem. A caster with access to, say, 5th-level spells still has more options than a Fighter 50, especially since that Fighter 50 doesn't have 50th-level WBL to throw at items to overcome those restrictions. Bigger numbers are all well and good, but they don't actually equalize anything.

I recommend one of the many "semi-gestalt" fixes you see floating around, where any Tier 1 is taken by itself, Tier 2 can gestalt with Tier 6, Tier 3 can gestalt with Tier 5 and below, or Tier 4 can gestalt with itself or lower. It's not an ideal fix, because even 3+3 doesn't necessarily equal 1 in 3.5, but it's better than an arbitrary point-cost system, because it gives more versatility to the martials.

Or, you know, just trust your players not to break the game. I guess I don't have that much experience with PBP, but in my RL groups, most restrictions are setting-based, not necessarily to "equalize" play. Yes, if the nerf bat comes out, it's usually aimed at the casters, but it's usually because of some setting-related reason. It's pretty rare that any of the players in my RL groups intentionally tries to break the game.


3) Everyone starts with the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). Levelling/item bonuses as normal. Extra increases cost 1 pp/increase.
Poor stat spreads hurt martial classes, which by nature are MAD, more than the high-tier casters. Part of the bonus of being Tier 1 is being SAD; you can simply throw your best score into your casting stat, then the second-best into Con, and you're set. Buff spells handle the rest.


6) All monsters have HD equal to 3x CR, unless already higher. Applying appropriate feats/skills/other increases up to the DM.
Another Bad Thing for martials. Keep in mind that HD increase BAB, and monsters don't obey the normal rules for epic PCs. Your starting gold doesn't allow the martials' AC to keep pace, even remotely. The dragon will be Power Attacking for 50 and still hitting with all his attacks, and the fighter's HP will bottom out in one round.

It also does increase saves, nerfing save-or-die and save-or-suck spells, but casters have plenty of other options (touch attack spells, buffing, spells that still have worthwhile effects even on a successful save) and the means to simply negate attacks, whereas the martials just have to sit there and take the 50 extra damage per attack from PA.

I'm not saying you need to stick to CR religiously, especially if your players are playing unusually high or low optimization characters. But actually tripling CR for HD is too much. Give bonus HP and feats if you need to, or stick spell effects like divine favor, conviction, or superior resistance on them for free, but don't go overboard with adding HD, which actually favors casters over martials.


7) Controlled targets cannot use special abilities or special attacks, though they retain special qualities.
This makes compulsion and summoning spells largely useless. You might as well remove them from the game at that point. I prefer requiring casters to spend their standard action (or at least a move) to give orders to their mindslaves/summons/undead every round (otherwise they simply skip their turn), which forces the caster to decide if they or their minions have the more effective action for the situation. It fixes the way those spells can be used to break the action economy without rendering them useless.


The intent of the rules is to allow for a high-level game that feels epic, without casters overshadowing everyone else. Where Conan can slay monsters and beat up wizards, and where a Balrog doesn't die from a single round of concerted effort by a typical caster. Do they accomplish this to at least a medium-high level of optimization, or will a typical CoDzilla stomp over noncasters?
Most of your changes actually help the casters, or at least change very little.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

What are you going to shapechange into that will win the day whose CR is 1/3 your caster level or less, maximum CR 8?
Also, what infinite wishes? Creatures that grant wishes are mostly beyond one's ability to call/make, and controlled ones can't grant you a wish.


I'm not claiming to have covered all exploits by any stretch, but the most obvious ones are usually stopped by one or more of the rules. As for mundanes one-shotting monsters, that is unlikely in any high-level game. In my experience, they need several rounds to take down a typical enemy.

[bahamut920]

I disagree. Damage increases much faster than HP in mid-to-high optimization games. That's why low-level and high-level D&D are basically rocket tag, and whoever wins initiative wins. A fighter may not be able to take down an enemy with a single attack, but with Power Attack, pounce, and a buff or two, most out-of-the-book monsters anywhere near the party's CR die in one full attack, maybe two. That, and the importance of the action economy, is why the "big solo monster" type of encounter is discouraged in 3e. It's much better to have a small (or large) group of enemies that work well together. Yeah, they're still going to go down in one full attack each. But they're going to last longer as a whole, and probably inconvenience the party more than a single large enemy.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

What are you going to shapechange into that will win the day whose CR is 1/3 your caster level or less, maximum CR 8?
Also, what infinite wishes? Creatures that grant wishes are mostly beyond one's ability to call/make, and controlled ones can't grant you a wish.


I'm not claiming to have covered all exploits by any stretch, but the most obvious ones are usually stopped by one or more of the rules. As for mundanes one-shotting monsters, that is unlikely in any high-level game. In my experience, they need several rounds to take down a typical enemy.

Aboleth or Mind Flayer suggests itself, and I'm sure someone can think of something even nastier.

As for infinite wishes, there's the Unfettered Heroism/Wand Surge trick, off the top of my head.

Mundanes being unable to one shot monsters is somewhat less of a problem than monsters being able to one shot mundanes, which with that ridiculous amount of hit dice, they'll be doing.

[Troacctid]

I can't really imagine a level 50 Fighter beating out a level 50 Warlock who can cast 9th level spells at will, including all 8th level or lower conjuration spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list at will as a standard action (and bypassing XP/expensive material components). Certainly not a Warmage or Healer with access to epic spellcasting.

[bahamut920]

A Beguiler or Dread Necromancer would be a solid level 30 or so, and would still have some points to boost their casting stat and round an odd number or two. Even a sorcerer or psion would be epic under these calculations. A duskblade or bard would have enough levels to take Improved Spell Capacity enough times to get 9th-level spells and take Epic Spellcasting. You wouldn't need a level 50 healer or warmage to do some impressive epic spellcasting.

My groups ban epic spellcasting completely. One allows the research of 10th or higher level spells, which the player and DM co-create to be in line with the power level of previous levels. The other just says, "eh, you'll make due with heavily-metamagic'd normal spells".

[Cosi]

I think the path to real ultimate power here is to be a Warmage. It's a fixed-list 9th level Arcane caster that comes in a 1 point/level. A starting progression:

Paladin 2 (2 points for two levels of a Tier Four class) - You need CHA to saves for awaken
Warmage 6 (6 points for six levels of a Tier Four class) - Casting, obviously
Rainbow Servant 10 (30 points for ten levels of a Tier Two class*) - Cast any Cleric spell, get a bunch of Prestige Domains
Dweomerkeeper 10 (30 points for ten levels of a Tier Two class*) - Supernatural Spell, use substitute domain to swap Good (or whatever) to Magic

Total: 68 points, exactly. If you want to pick up a pile of martial maneuvers or some extra actions, you only really need four levels of Dweomerkeeper for Supernatural Spell 1/day.

That's honestly pretty good. Grab some Runestaves that have spells you want (like time stop) and go to town using UMD, which you can get with Apprentice. You cast the entire Cleric list, and Supernatural Spell 4/day. Of course, you can do other stuff, but I think the build itself is probably an improvement over a normal 17th level caster, which seems like the exact opposite of what Belial wanted.

*: Warmage is Tier Four, those are both Up Two Tiers PrCs. I assume this is what Belial meant.


The alternative treasure/advancement means PCs can't begin with researched epic spells of higher than 0 DC, while the clause about controlled creatures shoots down easy rituals. Thus broken epic spells, while still a possibility, have to be researched and cast during the campaign and without easily sidestepping the costs.

Yes they can. I'll use the above build for a starting point.

1. Use one of your magic item picks to get a Knowstone of polymorph.

2. Cast polymorph to turn into a Wolf. Your type changes to Animal.

3. Cast miracle. Use this to emulate awaken targeting yourself (no XP cost). This gives you +1d3 CHA, +2 HD, and randomly sets your INT to between 3 and 18.

4. Go to 2.

The save DC for awaken goes up by two every time, and you gain 1d3 CHA. This isn't quite sustainable, so you need to drain about half your new HD.

After repeating this for a while, you will have a large CHA modifier which can be used to make people Fanatic, which will make them obey you but not count as "controlled" according to this:


No. Control is a game term and the spell/ability you're using will bring it up, such as in Dominate, Gate, Ice Assassin and so on and so forth. But hey, if you can get a high-level caster to do your bidding with mind-affecting enchantments, you probably deserve their help.

So buy a Knowstone of greater planar binding and start summoning Slyphs (MMII, CR 5 Outsider with 7th level Sorcerer casting), making them Fanatic and mitigating to your heart's content.

You also have a large pile of HD from this process. If this is the case, you can use hide life to avoid dying from HP damage and mitigate your epic spells with lots and lots and lots of backlash. Combine with masochism for fun and profit.


According to their Tier. And if they change a base class' Tier, costs change accordingly. Rainbow Servant Warmage doesn't get a free lunch.

This does weird things with half casting PrCs. As a Wizard, ten levels of Mindbender costs the same as five levels of Wizard and grants the same casting plus other stuff. This is probably not your intention.

EDIT: You actually get more casting per point as a Mindbender if your base class is Sorcerer. Sorcerer is Tier Two for 1 level/3 points, Mindbender is Down Two, putting it at Tier Four and 1 level/1 point. It progresses casting every other level, so you end up with net 1 level of casting/2 points. That's stupid.


Monsters are no longer killable with one attack,

Sure they are. With enough HD and hide life you can use Destroy with copious amounts of backlash to deal enough damage to kill anything.


For non-monster challenges, expect similar increase of toughness. I.e. a locked door won't be a typical obstacle. It will be a door with ten locks, made of layered sheets of material, and several indirect traps instead. You could have the rogue unlock it and disarm the traps, a tank break it and survive the traps, or the caster cast five Knock spells and one anti-trap spell or five Disintegrates and one anti-trap spell to get rid of it. Bypassing it isn't an option if it and the walls are ghost-touch and the other side is under Forbiddance, unless someone is willing to burn a Wish/Miracle.

Or you could just use the Energy seed and DC mitigation to deal enough damage to melt the walls with your aura. Which costs no spell slots whatsoever.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A caster with access to, say, 5th-level spells still has more options than a Fighter 50.
Melee attacks, ranged attacks, combat maneuvers, self-healing, defeating illusions/invisibility, deflecting/countering enemy attacks, diplomacy, raising armies, concealment; all options one can gain via feats/skills, especially epic ones. Even the blandest build (which Fighter 50 probably is) has three times the options it used to have while casters have their options somewhat limited. A build with Swordsage/Blackguard/Hexblade is going to have a great deal more than that.


Poor stat spreads hurt martial classes, which by nature are MAD, more than the high-tier casters. Part of the bonus of being Tier 1 is being SAD; you can simply throw your best score into your casting stat, then the second-best into Con, and you're set. Buff spells handle the rest.
Except Tier 1s get only 4 ability increases via levels before items; just enough to gain 9th level spells. Martial classes are going to get 12 via level and 18 via points. Since item bonuses will be the same, the extra 26 points cover the difference in buffs, and the difference in total HD ensures Tier 1s are comparatively squishy and need to rely on not being hit.


The dragon will be Power Attacking for 50 and still hitting with all his attacks, and the fighter's HP will bottom out in one round.
CR 17 dragon has 51 BAB, -8 for size, -2 multiattack, +7 for strength. If he PAs for 50, he's not going to hit a single thing. The fighter has an AC of 10 base +10 dex +14 armor +7 buckler +5 natural +5 deflection for a total of 51. The dragon can only PA for 10 or so, for some 30 damage/blow, 3-4 blows hitting. He needs 5-6 attacks to kill the fighter, barring ways to force touch attacks.


casters have plenty of other options (touch attack spells, buffing, spells that still have worthwhile effects even on a successful save)
Sure. But they'll need to outmaneuver the monster and catch it unaware else their ranged touch spells will be deflected by a feat, or will need to boost their SR checks to defeat the monster's feat-increased Spell Resistance, or handle other potential feat-based defenses they won't know about. Same thing will happen to warriors always relying on the same tricks, of course.


This makes compulsion and summoning spells largely useless.
Nope. Compulsion spells still net you a controlled minion with all its skills, physical toughness, and normal attacks, and are still a save-or-lose if they succeed. Summon spells still summon creatures - and now they'll have triple HD. Greater Planar Binding still nets a useful lasting minion, and Gate can potentially net you a mighty ally. The only thing made impossible is cheating your way to easy wishes, miracles and Gate-chains by abusing controlled monsters.


Paragon Aboleth or Mind Flayer suggests itself, and I'm sure someone can think of something even nastier.
Paragon Aboleth is CR 22, with 66 HD. As it is an inappropriate encounter and beyond what you could call with most magic, where are you going to find one? Besides, what are you trying to accomplish?


As for infinite wishes, there's the Unfettered Heroism/Wand Surge trick
Nope. Items cap at 200k gp each and can't be custom. Staff of Wish costs 1,5 million gp using standard staff rules.


I can't really imagine a level 50 Fighter beating out a level 50 Warlock who can cast 9th level spells at will, including all 8th level or lower conjuration spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list at will as a standard action (and bypassing XP/expensive material components). Certainly not a Warmage or Healer with access to epic spellcasting.
Level 50 fighter vs level 34 Warlock. Fighter infinite-deflects Eldritch Blasts and is a better ranged combatant. The Warlock could win if he plays it smart and relies on shadow-summons and indirect attacks while keeping the fighter from attacking him but victory isn't certain.
Vs level 34 Warmage or Healer and Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spells aren't broken once easy rituals and researching spells before the campaign starts become unavailable.

[Troacctid]

Level 50 fighter vs level 34 Warlock. Fighter infinite-deflects Eldritch Blasts and is a better ranged combatant. The Warlock could win if he plays it smart and relies on shadow-summons and indirect attacks while keeping the fighter from attacking him but victory isn't certain.
Vs level 34 Warmage or Healer and Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spells aren't broken once easy rituals and researching spells before the campaign starts become unavailable.
As T4 classes, Warlocks, Warmages, and Healers would be 1 point/level, putting them at level 50 with points to spare. Since Warlocks only need 20 levels of casting to max out their invocations, they can even spam half-casting prestige classes like Acolyte of the Skin and Green Star Adept to drop their tier down if they need to.

[bahamut920]

Epic spellcasting is broken in all the worst ways no matter what you do to it. Simple effects have ridiculous DCs, and the most powerful stuff can be created on the cheap. It's like playing a truenamer; most of it is garbage, but there's one or two diamonds hidden among the feces for anyone who cares to search enough. Your rules prevent people from starting with the one or two worthwhile (read: super broken for their cost) epic spells you can create, but it doesn't prevent anyone from using them.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Nice Polymorph/Awaken exploit.


I guess I need an addition that Tier 0 classes (i.e. significantly stronger than cleric/wizard) are not allowed, because the problem is with the Dweomerkeeper's ability to sidestep costs.

As for the Fanatic attitude, it assumes that attempting to apply a mind-affecting enchantment on a planar-bound creature won't break the magic circle and have it immediately return to its own plane. Or that the target is susceptible to mental influence.

[Cosi]

I guess I need an addition that Tier 0 classes (i.e. significantly stronger than cleric/wizard) are not allowed, because the problem is with the Dweomerkeeper's ability to sidestep costs.

What does that mean? What constitutes "significantly"? Any set of rules you fit on one page will have holes, so you're better off just talking with your players.


As for the Fanatic attitude, it assumes that attempting to apply a mind-affecting enchantment on a planar-bound creature won't break the magic circle and have it immediately return to its own plane. Or that the target is susceptible to mental influence.

What? If the creature breaks out, it doesn't leave the plane. It can "flee or attack you", at which point you just hit it with Diplomacy.

[InvisibleBison]

while the clause about controlled creatures shoots down easy rituals.

Not completely. I once looked over the random city generation tables in the DMG, and found that an average metropolis contains enough spellcasters to lower the DC of an epic spell by almost 1000 points. And a high-level caster could easily use teleportation circles to gather ritual assistants from all over the world. It would cost a significant amount to hire them all, but not a prohibitive amount, I think.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This doesn't really help.

Ultimately, the reason higher tier classes are higher tier, mostly, is having a broader range of options than those lower on the listing. 50 levels in fighter is -still- a much weaker option than even 15 levels in wizard or archivist.

If you want high level games without nerfing you need all your ducks in a row.

You have to be prepared for high level capabilities. Teleportation, flight, dimensional travel, extraordinary senses and stealth capabilities, combinations of effects that are greater than the sum of their parts, and so on.

You have to understand the flow of information because information is power and high level PC's can have extreme methods of gathering information.

You have to know how to handle groups of mixed power if there's a significant tier gap.

Finally, you have to be prepared to ask players to play ball. The gentlemen's agreement becomes necessarily more and more important as levels and power and options increase. You have to be willing to say 'no' to things that you're -not- prepared to handle and you need to be willing to ask players to 'knock it off' if one of them is trivializing the presence of one of the other PC's.

There is no quick and dirty fix.

[Zanos]

I find that a gentlemen's agreement and only playing with people you actually like tends to have everything work out okay. When I DM I don't DM for anybody I don't like to play with, and that solves 99.5% of my problems. Even when I run a game online on Roll20 or something, there's always a surplus of players and a shortage of DMs. There's really no need to run for people you feel ruin the experience.

This balance hack is very, well, hacky. It's a system, so there are of course going to be ways to optimize around it to build a more powerful character. Unexpectedly powerful and weak paths still exist. One immediate issue I take with it is that it assumes that classes are being played to their optimization ceiling, or close to it. If I play a wizard or sorcerer in this ruleset, I am going to have a very hard time getting any monster to ever fail a saving throw unless I start abusing tricks to boost my casting stat into the stratosphere or circle magic to heighten spells up to 20th. So wizards slinging fireballs is right out, as are most "traditional" methods of killing stuff with magic. Yet I can make a sorcerer with gate and epic spellcasting to make any epic spell I want as a ritual cast, and that's all just fine and dandy.

[Zale]

There's also the fact that the designers of the game thought that "+1 to attack" and "can use two quickened spells in a round" were both worth an epic feat.

Epic feats for non-casters are so sad. The best of them are stuff like the haste one; that's just a sad substitute for magic.

It's really depressing that there's an Epic Feat that's just conditional Pounce. Honestly if let Fighters pick from Divine Salient Abilities (Sans Alter Reality), it still probably wouldn't be enough to put their abilities on par with what epic spellcasters get for feats.