Can you summon advanced monsters with summon monster spells?

[RoboEmperor]

For example, when you cast summon monster V, can you summon a 7HD earth elemental instead of a 4hd one? There both medium, and you could argue you can summon a generic 7hd elemental. I mean it makes sense right? Elementals that go up in hd go up in size, so there's bound to be lots of elementals higher than the minimum hd for its size. Is there a rule that specifically says you can only bind lowest hd monsters?

How about with the summon elemental reserve feat? Can I summon 15hd large elementals with this feat instead of 8hd elementals?

Also, does Rashemi Elemental affect summon elemental reserve feat? How about Augment Summoning and Augment Elemental? They all say all elementals summoned by a spell but the summon elemental reserve feat say streat the creature summoned as if summoned by a summon monster spell.

[BowStreetRunner]

Summon Monster V (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterV.htm) specifies a medium elemental, which is a 4HD elemental. The reserve feat specifies a small elemental, which is a 2HD elemental. These spells are all pretty specific about what is summoned. If you want a larger elemental you need the appropriate higher level version of the spell.

The general text of Rashemi Elemental Summoning states you can use it "in any situation where you could summon an air or earth elemental" while the description of the feat's benefit states "When casting a spell that summons air or earth elementals". When I see direct contradictions like this I generally go with the broader view - in this case other means of summoning besides spells would be allowed. However, ask your DM first on this one so that you don't get shot down after investing in a feat.

For Augment Summoning and Augment Elemental they both state that they work for elementals you conjure with a summon spell. So on first glance it would not seem to work with the reserve feat. However, the reserve feat does state that "The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell" which could be interpreted to suggest that it would gain the benefit of the Augment feats as well. Again, ask your DM first.

[DrMotives]

There were some optional rules about summoning spells bringing up specific individuals instead of generic stock summons, I want to say in Tome & Blood, which would make that 3.0 not 3.5. But regardless, those rules (and other variant summon monster list options) could allow upgraded custom summons, although they should be then made powerful enough to slot them into a higher level spell.

[Deadline]

There were some optional rules about summoning spells bringing up specific individuals instead of generic stock summons, I want to say in Tome & Blood, which would make that 3.0 not 3.5. But regardless, those rules (and other variant summon monster list options) could allow upgraded custom summons, although they should be then made powerful enough to slot them into a higher level spell.

It's on page 37 of the DMG. The general gist was that you always summoned the same creatures every time. You could improve them by calling them with Planar Binding to give them magic items and the like, and then they would have those items when you summoned them.

[RoboEmperor]

Why can't I summon a generic 7hd elemental? It's still medium size. Does it say anywhere generic creature = minimum hit die?

Oh my god, how can I missed this in summon elemental?

The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell (PH 285).

That means, I can summon beefed up orglashes for nothing that can cast 8d6 cone of cold minimum, 15d6 if I am allowed to summon advanced creatures (when I can summon large elementals)

[bahamut920]

Because you're getting more HD, which means more HP, better BAB, and better saves. You want more out of an already pretty good spell.

[RoboEmperor]

Because you're getting more HD, which means more HP, better BAB, and better saves. You want more out of an already pretty good spell.

Of course I want more. i'm only human, so I'm asking is there a rule stopping me from having more? :)

I'm oliver twist. Can I please have some more?

[Kelb_Panthera]

For example, when you cast summon monster V, can you summon a 7HD earth elemental instead of a 4hd one? There both medium, and you could argue you can summon a generic 7hd elemental. I mean it makes sense right? Elementals that go up in hd go up in size, so there's bound to be lots of elementals higher than the minimum hd for its size. Is there a rule that specifically says you can only bind lowest hd monsters?

Anywhere in the rules where they refer to a creature with extra HD for one of its type, it's referred to as an advanced <X>. Nowhere in any of the summon monsters does it say you can summon an advanced creature of any type, therefore you cannot.

It's a matter of the rules don't say you can, so you can't.

[RoboEmperor]

Anywhere in the rules where they refer to a creature with extra HD for one of its type, it's referred to as an advanced <X>. Nowhere in any of the summon monsters does it say you can summon an advanced creature of any type, therefore you cannot.

Ok that's a good enough argument.

What about shapechange? Can I polymorph/shapechange into advanced creatures? Advanced creatures are bigger which results in stronger weapons.

[Âmesang]

Since shapechange has a Hit Die limit for the kind of creature you can become, I personally don't see why advanced versions couldn't be chosen… though I may be loath to allow Str/Dex/Con advancement due to it; so a player changing into a 25 HD balor would probably be stuck with the default Str 35/Dex 25/Con 31. :smallconfused:

It does make me wonder if its true seeing supernatural ability would thus go up in caster level…

[LTwerewolf]

True seeing makes no mention of it being based on hit dice in their description, so I don't see why it would.

[Kelb_Panthera]

True seeing makes no mention of it being based on hit dice in their description, so I don't see why it would.

Unless otherwise noted, a SU ability's caster level is equal to the creature's HD.

[Âmesang]

I forgot about that rule. It's always something. :smalltongue: Admittedly it'd probably suck being a 60 HD balor while using such effects only at CL 20, otherwise.

[LTwerewolf]

Unless otherwise noted, a SU ability's caster level is equal to the creature's HD.

That's true. It is however noted in the balor's description that the caster level on their abilities is 20. That it happens to coincide with their hit dice doesn't matter.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's true. It is however noted in the balor's description that the caster level on their abilities is 20. That it happens to coincide with their hit dice doesn't matter.

Those are its spell-likes. True seeing is a supernatural ability for it. It still keys to HD.

[bahamut920]

Checking two different SRDs reveals that the balor's true seeing is, in fact, specifically stated to be CL 20. No mention of HD at all. It's stuck at CL 20 forever, just like their SLAs.

[EDIT] Links, for the curious:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/monstersDtoDe.html#balor-demon
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor

[Kelb_Panthera]

Checking two different SRDs reveals that the balor's true seeing is, in fact, specifically stated to be CL 20. No mention of HD at all. It's stuck at CL 20 forever, just like their SLAs.

[EDIT] Links, for the curious:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/monstersDtoDe.html#balor-demon
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor

Huh. Missed that twice.

In fairness, the paranthetical there may be descriptive rather than prescriptive. The SU mimics a spell and spells are expected to have a listed CL. It wouldn't be the first place they listed a reminder of rules from elsewhere next to something to which they're relevant.

[bahamut920]

They usually re-state the rule, or at least summarize it, in those cases, though. For example, the balor's SLAs all have listed DCs, but the entry notes that they're Cha-based, anyways, in case the creature's Cha increases. The CL, for both the SLAs and true seeing, makes no mention of HD anywhere, so by RAW at least, I'd rule that the CL doesn't increase. Now, if I were a DM making a HD-advanced balor to challenge epic-level PCs, I'd probably bump the CL up to match the HD I gave them, but that's purely in the realm of DM fiat.

[LTwerewolf]

Pretty sure the rule was created for the assumption of editing errors where they were forgotten, or on the things that were specifically intended to key off of hit dice such as some of the abilities on a barghest where it's assumed that advanced barghests will be found. While they have rules for custom things, they didn't seem to actually intend those things to be used (like early monster races).

[Bullet06320]

For example, when you cast summon monster V, can you summon a 7HD earth elemental instead of a 4hd one? There both medium, and you could argue you can summon a generic 7hd elemental. I mean it makes sense right? Elementals that go up in hd go up in size, so there's bound to be lots of elementals higher than the minimum hd for its size. Is there a rule that specifically says you can only bind lowest hd monsters?


Dragon Magazine 302 pg 25 Summoner's Circle article has rules for adding different creatures to you summon monster list, based on CR, and adding certain templates

Planar binding and planar ally spells would also work for getting other critters too