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JCarter426
2016-04-07, 03:13 PM
I'm doing a bit of work with the game Knights of the Old Republic (the first one) to overhaul the lightsaber mechanics. And I'm not sure everything i've come up with so far is balanced. Now, KOTOR has its own rule system, but the Star Wars RPG was d20, and the game engine is from Neverwinter Nights, so I'm hoping even if you aren't familiar with the game specifically, there will be enough overlap in terms. I can go over the eccentricities. I apologize if I'm over explaining, because I forget how much is overlap and how much is unique to the video game.

To start, in the unedited game, there are three lightsaber types. There can only be three due to technological limitations - you can make more, but they can't be part of the upgrade system. The three types are the standard saber (base damage 2d8, critical 19-20, x2), short lightsaber (base damage 2d6, critical 19-20, x2), and double-bladed lightsaber (base damage 2d10/2d10, critical 20-20, x2). The double-bladed lightsaber is a two-handed weapon; both other types allow for dual wielding, with certain penalties. All three types can be upgraded with crystals that have additional properties. Each weapon can have up to three crystals: one for the color (which may or may not have other stats, most don't) and two focusing crystals, which have numerous properties (attack bonus, attribute bonus, damage bonus by damage type, damage bonus by enemy type, on hit properties, Force stuff, etc.) The sequel adds additional upgrade slots, so part my inspiration for this is to add an additional level of customization through the existing mechanics.

My goal is two do two things:

First, to remove the short lightsaber as a category. It's pretty underpowered, and mechanically it's not needed as the third type. I can add it as a fourth type through some technical trickery and have it play almost exactly the same, allowing for the inclusion of a new type: the longsaber. It's a lightsaber with a longer blade. Big weapon, one blade, requires two hands, sort of the Star Wars equivalent of a greatsword (although mechanically I've made it more like a glaive, I think).

Second, to add new crystal types. The three new types are compressed energy crystal (CEC), crystal lens, and unstable crystal. Below, I've also listed the stats for lightsabers with only the standard color crystals. The game has numerous other crystals and I'm also considering more options.


Lightsabers


Type
Model
Size
Base Damage
Damage Bonus
Melee Enhancement
Attack
Defense
Blaster Deflection
Critical
Additional Properties



Lightsaber
L
1
2d8
+1




19-20, x2




Lightsaber (CEC)
L
1
2d8


+2
+1

17-20, x2




Lightsaber (Crystal Lens)
L
1
2d8
+2

-2

+2
19-20, x2




Lightsaber (Unstable)
L
1
2d8
+1d8

-1
-2

19-20, x2




Double-Bladed Lightsaber
D
2
2d10
+1




20-20, x2




Double-Bladed Lightsaber (CEC)
D
2
2d10


+2
+1

19-20, x2




Double-Bladed Lightsaber (Crystal Lens)
D
2
2d10
+2

-2

+2
20-20, x2




Double-Bladed Lightsaber (Unstable)
D
2
2d10
+1d10

-1
-2

20-20, x2




Longsaber
G
2
2d8
+1
+1



20-20, x3




Longsaber (CEC)
G
2
2d8

+1
+2
+1

19-20, x3




Longsaber(Crystal Lens)
G
2
2d8
+2
+1
-2


20-20, x3




Longsaber (Untable)
G
2
2d8
+1-8
+1

-1

20-20, x3




Short Lightsaber
S
0
2d6
+1


+4

19-20, x2
Master Two-Weapon Fighting, Not Upgradeable



Short Lightsaber (Unstable)
S
0
2d6
+1-6

-1
+2

19-20, x2
Master Two-Weapon Fighting, Not Upgradeable



So, to go through it by category...

Type
Weapon category plus which crystal is in it. If an item is marked as "not upgradeable", it can only use the standard and unstable crystals.

Model
This is basically the same as the type - L for standard lightsaber, D for double-bladed lightsaber, G for longsaber, S for short lightsaber.

Size
0: "Balanced" weapon that has a reduced attack penalty for two-weapon fighting when wielded in the off hand.
1: One-handed weapon.
2: Two-handed weapon.

Base Damage
Dice to roll. Lightsabers deal energy damage, which can be blocked with energy shields. I'd also like to note that the sequel increases every die number by 2, although for now I've left them alone.

Damage Bonus
I couldn't figure out a way to give the CEC lightsabers a damage penalty, unfortunately, so I decided to give every other weapon a bonus. I could set the base damage of all weapons to 0 and then add the damage manually by item, but I don't want to do that for technical reasons. Unless specified otherwise, the bonus damage is energy damage, although other types could theoretically be added.

Melee Enhancement
I think this adds unstoppable damage, just as the STR modifier does. At least, that's my intent. I haven't done the testing yet to make sure that property does what I think it does.

Attack
Additional attack bonus or penalty. Dual wielding (either with two sabers or a double-bladed saber) has attack penalties. The default values are -6 (main hand) / -10 (off hand). This can be reduced to -2/-2 with Master Two-Weapon Fighting and using a "balanced" weapon (such as a short lightsaber) reduces the penalty further to 0/-2.

Defense
Additional defense bonus or penalty. Dual wielding also has a defense penalty of -2, in addition to anything in the table. And the only defense mechanic is AC (base 10 + DEX modifier + armor).

Critical
Range and damage multiplier for critical hits. The only way to adjust an individual item's critical range is with the Keen property, which doubles the range (i.e. 20-20 becomes 19-20, 19-20 becomes 17-20 - that's why there are no 18s in the table). The Keen property does not stack in the first game. It's possible to set the criticals to whatever, but it would affect the entire item class (i.e. all standard lightsabers, double-bladed lightsabers, or short lightsabers, categorically).

Blaster Deflection
An attack roll is made to deflect blasters back at the attacker (d20 + base attack bonus + blaster deflection) but only after the defense check has been made.

Additional Properties
Bonus feats, whether the item can be upgraded, etc.

I've statted out some additional types, but I don't think I can get to them anytime soon and I don't want to overload you with information, so that's all for now. So, what do you think? Improvement? Terrible? I'm going to play the game with the modified items to test them properly, but I'm interested in hearing how it looks on paper before I spend the hours to do that.

Thanks in advance.

ThePurple
2016-04-07, 09:54 PM
First, to remove the short lightsaber as a category.

The shortsaber is there as the offhand option for dual wielding because 3.X penalizes you very heavily for dual wielding with a heavy weapon in your offhand (-4/-4 to attack rolls instead of -2/-2). I can see getting rid of shortsabers, but only if you provide normal lightsabers with the light quality that shortsabers have by default so that you can dual wield them without penalty (which, to me, makes way more sense, given that a lightsaber weighs, at most, 4 lbs, all of which is in your hand rather than along the blade, so it weighs about as much as a shortsword with infinitely better balance).

If you do this, you can just do away with short sabers completely (thematically, it's appropriate since the only characters that ever use a shortsaber in any SW content that I can recall are Yoda and the younglings, purely because they're too small to use a full sized saber).


allowing for the inclusion of a new type: the longsaber.

Based on the stats you provided, the longsaber looks to be completely and totally underwhelming. There are so many bonuses that apply to all of your attacks and none of the "bigger bonuses for using a 2h weapon" that made 2h the de facto set up of choice in 3.X. Dual wielding (melee or ranged) is pretty much the *only* way to go if you want to be a non-Force damage dealer in either of the KotOR games (especially the 2nd, when you start getting completely absurd bonuses to all of your attacks).

As such, you definitely need to crank up the damage on the longsaber. I would bring it up to at least 2d12 or possibly even 3d8 or 3d10, depending upon how the math plays out (I have a feeling that 3d8 might work when you factor in Master Flurry, but that's just a hunch), in order to bring it up to par with dual wielding (or even up to dueling, since 2h weapons don't get their own feat path, unless you come up with a way to add that as well, which would be pretty cool, honestly).


Second, to add new crystal types.

Are you talking about adding new color crystals with stats on them or adding new focus crystals? You're simply using the term "crystals" which is vague in this sense.

If you're talking about new color crystals, it looks pretty fine, though I can tell you that an unstable double saber is going to be the optimal set up, without question. Player attack bonuses and defenses get so high that the (comparatively) minute changes you're applying there in no way offset the additional 1d10 damage per attack that you're providing them with (which, iirc, is something like 7d10 damage each turn).

Also, I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but I'm *pretty* sure that the bonuses to attack rolls and defenses are applied as global bonuses while the damage bonuses are restricted to the weapon itself. As such, using two lightsabers provides twice the attack/defense changes as it would using a double saber. Because of that, you may want to look into doubling the attack/defense modifiers for using a double saber to keep it balanced (not that it means much because you're still talking about a game where, at the end, you often have a tohit bonus so high that, if you didn't automatically miss on a 1, you'd have to roll something like a -5 to not hit your target).

As a possible option for the longsaber feat tree, might I suggest you look into Trakata (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tr%C3%A0kata), which I can only imagine doing when using a saber with two hands. Trakata is the discipline/tactic to capitalize on the fact that the lightsaber is a weapon with that can be turned on and off in order to make the blade appear or disappear. I can only really imagine it working when wielding it in two hands because you're talking about some precise fine motor control and pin point timing (the fan lore for Trakata states that it's supposed to be used with dual wielding, but that never quite grokked with me). The effect of using Trakata were basically that you could bypass any attempt to block your strike (turn blade off when you're about to contact your opponent's blade, turn it back on when it's past) and unbalance your opponent after blocking their strike (opponent swings, you block the strike and move, turn blade off and opponent's pressure pushes them off balance).

The primary benefit that I can imagine, from a mechanical viewpoint, would be to allow Scoundrels to do their Sneak Attack damage on *all* of their attacks while wielding a longsaber, which would make Sneak Attack Jedi much more viable than they are in the game by default (excepting stun builds). Of course, you could also just have it provide the same benefits as Sneak Attack on its own to give other classes a reason to use a longsaber.

JCarter426
2016-04-08, 09:14 AM
Ah, that's an elaborate response. And as I suspected I definitely forgot to mention a few of the video game's eccentricities.


The shortsaber is there as the offhand option for dual wielding because 3.X penalizes you very heavily for dual wielding with a heavy weapon in your offhand (-4/-4 to attack rolls instead of -2/-2). I can see getting rid of shortsabers, but only if you provide normal lightsabers with the light quality that shortsabers have by default so that you can dual wield them without penalty (which, to me, makes way more sense, given that a lightsaber weighs, at most, 4 lbs, all of which is in your hand rather than along the blade, so it weighs about as much as a shortsword with infinitely better balance).

If you do this, you can just do away with short sabers completely (thematically, it's appropriate since the only characters that ever use a shortsaber in any SW content that I can recall are Yoda and the younglings, purely because they're too small to use a full sized saber).
The short lightsaber would still be there - it's a the bottom of the chart - just not as an item that can be upgraded (no additional crystals). I did think about making all lightsabers balanced, because honestly that makes way more sense, but I didn't want to for two reasons. First, because I actually can't get rid of short lightsabers entirely. Enemies still use them, and drop them when killed, and going through the whole game to remove those wouldn't be worth it. Second, because apart from including them in upgrade, it's possible to make short sabers a new category without affecting them in the slightest.

Basically, there can only be three weapons that count as lightsabers, and the short lightsaber is not needed as one of them because its properties are almost identical to the standard lightsaber's. They use the same animations, they can be equipped in the same equipment slots, they have the same critical values, they do the same type of damage. The only differences are that short sabers are balanced and use smaller dice. From a technical point of view, that's kind of a waste, because short lightsabers really aren't worth using. Dual wielding isn't viable without Two-Weapon Fighting because the attack penalty is -6/-10. A short lightsaber in the off hand reduces that to -4/-10. With Master Two-Weapon Fighting, it's -2/-2 (i.e. the benefit that a light weapon gives you in D&D 3.X) and a short lightsaber can reduce that to 0/-2. As you noted, the stats can get so high that a slightly reduced penalty for the main hand isn't going to matter all that much late in the game.

I had been considering making all lightsabers balanced - because really, they should be - before I discovered I could keep short lightsabers so long as they aren't in the upgrade system. So the situation now is I can either keep the difference, or I can make all lightsabers balanced and come up with some other property for short lightsabers.


Based on the stats you provided, the longsaber looks to be completely and totally underwhelming. There are so many bonuses that apply to all of your attacks and none of the "bigger bonuses for using a 2h weapon" that made 2h the de facto set up of choice in 3.X. Dual wielding (melee or ranged) is pretty much the *only* way to go if you want to be a non-Force damage dealer in either of the KotOR games (especially the 2nd, when you start getting completely absurd bonuses to all of your attacks).

As such, you definitely need to crank up the damage on the longsaber. I would bring it up to at least 2d12 or possibly even 3d8 or 3d10, depending upon how the math plays out (I have a feeling that 3d8 might work when you factor in Master Flurry, but that's just a hunch), in order to bring it up to par with dual wielding (or even up to dueling, since 2h weapons don't get their own feat path, unless you come up with a way to add that as well, which would be pretty cool, honestly).
It's going to be underpowered compared to any dual build, yeah... but isn't it already overpowered compared to using one standard lightsaber? That's really the only reason I cutting back on it. I originally had the base damage at 2d12. 3d8 might work - it would give half an attack per round, same as the unstable crystal but without the penalties. I think I might lose the other properties if I do that, apart from the x3 critical.

Also, the longsaber does benefit from Dueling, the way the game is programmed.


Are you talking about adding new color crystals with stats on them or adding new focus crystals? You're simply using the term "crystals" which is vague in this sense.
New color crystals, yeah. All the standard color crystals just change the color, apart from two unique items. These would be additional crystals that change the color but also have other stats, and you can still benefit from the addition of two more focusing crystals.


If you're talking about new color crystals, it looks pretty fine, though I can tell you that an unstable double saber is going to be the optimal set up, without question. Player attack bonuses and defenses get so high that the (comparatively) minute changes you're applying there in no way offset the additional 1d10 damage per attack that you're providing them with (which, iirc, is something like 7d10 damage each turn).
I was kind of afraid of that. I was basing the unstable crystal stats on an upgrade item from the second game... but I actually reduced the damage from 2d6 to one additional die per weapon. I might have to consider making the bonus uniform rather than scaling up by weapon type.


Also, I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but I'm *pretty* sure that the bonuses to attack rolls and defenses are applied as global bonuses while the damage bonuses are restricted to the weapon itself. As such, using two lightsabers provides twice the attack/defense changes as it would using a double saber. Because of that, you may want to look into doubling the attack/defense modifiers for using a double saber to keep it balanced (not that it means much because you're still talking about a game where, at the end, you often have a tohit bonus so high that, if you didn't automatically miss on a 1, you'd have to roll something like a -5 to not hit your target).
The game adds attack bonuses to individual weapons, so I think we're good here. I know it might sound silly, but you can actually get an off hand weapon to have a better attack bonus than the main hand. I've tested it.


As a possible option for the longsaber feat tree, might I suggest you look into Trakata (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tr%C3%A0kata), which I can only imagine doing when using a saber with two hands. Trakata is the discipline/tactic to capitalize on the fact that the lightsaber is a weapon with that can be turned on and off in order to make the blade appear or disappear. I can only really imagine it working when wielding it in two hands because you're talking about some precise fine motor control and pin point timing (the fan lore for Trakata states that it's supposed to be used with dual wielding, but that never quite grokked with me). The effect of using Trakata were basically that you could bypass any attempt to block your strike (turn blade off when you're about to contact your opponent's blade, turn it back on when it's past) and unbalance your opponent after blocking their strike (opponent swings, you block the strike and move, turn blade off and opponent's pressure pushes them off balance).

The primary benefit that I can imagine, from a mechanical viewpoint, would be to allow Scoundrels to do their Sneak Attack damage on *all* of their attacks while wielding a longsaber, which would make Sneak Attack Jedi much more viable than they are in the game by default (excepting stun builds). Of course, you could also just have it provide the same benefits as Sneak Attack on its own to give other classes a reason to use a longsaber.
Unfortunately it's not possible to add feats that actually do anything, although it could be a Force power or other kind of spell - though I'm still looking into that... I ran into some stupid issues while trying something else. I've been considering something along those lines, although it would depend on whether I can get the blade to turn off during combat... it should be possible but I haven't tested yet. I'm not sure how it would affect Sneak Attack either, because I was never sure how the mechanics of that actually work in the game. I know how they're supposed to work, but...

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'll have to think on it a bit more before I update the table, but I'll be back.

ThePurple
2016-04-08, 02:33 PM
I had been considering making all lightsabers balanced - because really, they should be - before I discovered I could keep short lightsabers so long as they aren't in the upgrade system. So the situation now is I can either keep the difference, or I can make all lightsabers balanced and come up with some other property for short lightsabers.

I think the solution you already provided is actually rather elegant: have short lightsabers provide the Two-Weapon Fighting feats as bonus feats. Two-weapon fighting is the de facto best build but doing so requires the investment of 3 feats, which can be pretty costly for some builds and a much higher level. A short lightsaber providing those feats would provide a reason for low level dual wield as well as feat restricted builds to use them. Even if they *can't* be customized, they'd still have that advantage.


It's going to be underpowered compared to any dual build, yeah... but isn't it already overpowered compared to using one standard lightsaber?

Even if it's superior to a single lightsaber alone (I'm confident that it isn't really), neither is going to be a viable and useful combat option since, if you're a Force power spammer, you can dual wield lightsabers in order to double up on the other benefits that are actually useful to you (e.g. defense bonuses and ability mod increases) while ignoring the penalties (e.g. damage and tohit penalties) because you don't actually bother attacking with your lightsabers. If you *are* a lightsaber combat specialist, optimally, you should be at least *trying* to balance the 2h loadout with the 2w loadout in order to make it appealing (which is one of the biggest errors that KotOR made).


Also, the longsaber does benefit from Dueling, the way the game is programmed.

Are you sure? I distinctly recall Dueling only providing those benefits while wielding a one handed weapon with an empty offhand. Unless there's some programmatic artifact caused by turning shortsabers (which do benefit) into longsabers (which wouldn't benefit), I'm pretty sure that it shouldn't (i.e. the game just considers you to be wielding a single "shortsaber" and doesn't actually check for an empty offhand). All of my searches and even in game testing bear this out, as far as the existing 2h weapons are concerned.


I was kind of afraid of that. I was basing the unstable crystal stats on an upgrade item from the second game... but I actually reduced the damage from 2d6 to one additional die per weapon. I might have to consider making the bonus uniform rather than scaling up by weapon type.

I would definitely do this.


The game adds attack bonuses to individual weapons, so I think we're good here. I know it might sound silly, but you can actually get an off hand weapon to have a better attack bonus than the main hand. I've tested it.

I could have sworn there was some super weird interaction with bonuses and penalties applying to elements other than the hand that they apply to, at least in the 2nd game, though that might be due to the significantly larger number of customization items and slots. I'm probably thinking of the +def and +ability mod tweaks applying globally and doing weird things to your attributes.


Unfortunately it's not possible to add feats that actually do anything, although it could be a Force power or other kind of spell - though I'm still looking into that... I ran into some stupid issues while trying something else. I've been considering something along those lines, although it would depend on whether I can get the blade to turn off during combat... it should be possible but I haven't tested yet.

The simplest method of doing this, in my mind, is to have the power make your lightsaber constantly flicker while drawn and the power/feat/whatever is active (and, if possible, just during your attacks). It's kind of a cheap cop-out, but anything more appropriate would definitely require a major reworking of the animations.


I'm not sure how it would affect Sneak Attack either, because I was never sure how the mechanics of that actually work in the game.

KotOR's Sneak Attack is the single worst and most obfuscated mechanic in the entire series. I have yet to see Sneak Attack operate reliably outside of the 2 precisely controllable situations that it applies: when a target is stunned (which is why most SA driven builds tend to use stun->flurry in order to get SA) or when you are stealthed and out of combat (and only for the first attack from stealth). I'm not sure if it's programmatically possible to have the "stealthed" flag stuck on true for the purpose of attacks while preserving the ability for it to vary appropriately in every other context. If it's possible, that would probably be the optimal way to accomplish it, but I readily admit that I'm not familiar with KotOR's back end.

JCarter426
2016-04-08, 05:18 PM
I think the solution you already provided is actually rather elegant: have short lightsabers provide the Two-Weapon Fighting feats as bonus feats. Two-weapon fighting is the de facto best build but doing so requires the investment of 3 feats, which can be pretty costly for some builds and a much higher level. A short lightsaber providing those feats would provide a reason for low level dual wield as well as feat restricted builds to use them. Even if they *can't* be customized, they'd still have that advantage.
That's what I was hoping. Dual wielding with other types might be a better build... but you have to spend three feats on it. I'm still debating a something regarding the short lightsaber, but I think I'll leave that as is for the testing phase.


Even if it's superior to a single lightsaber alone (I'm confident that it isn't really), neither is going to be a viable and useful combat option since, if you're a Force power spammer, you can dual wield lightsabers in order to double up on the other benefits that are actually useful to you (e.g. defense bonuses and ability mod increases) while ignoring the penalties (e.g. damage and tohit penalties) because you don't actually bother attacking with your lightsabers. If you *are* a lightsaber combat specialist, optimally, you should be at least *trying* to balance the 2h loadout with the 2w loadout in order to make it appealing (which is one of the biggest errors that KotOR made).
Fair enough. One thing I'm trying to do is make all options viable - especially a single blade, since that's what most Jedi use! - but as you say, the game doesn't really allow for it. I'm still worried about the longsaber with CEC being obviously superior to the standard saber, but I might have to live with that. I'm working on another single-bladed option that might be viable, anyway.


Are you sure? I distinctly recall Dueling only providing those benefits while wielding a one handed weapon with an empty offhand. Unless there's some programmatic artifact caused by turning shortsabers (which do benefit) into longsabers (which wouldn't benefit), I'm pretty sure that it shouldn't (i.e. the game just considers you to be wielding a single "shortsaber" and doesn't actually check for an empty offhand). All of my searches and even in game testing bear this out, as far as the existing 2h weapons are concerned.
Yeah, I did some testing, and it shows up in the feedback screen for the longsaber. I'm not sure what specifically allows it, but it's there for the longsaber and not for double-bladed sabers.


I could have sworn there was some super weird interaction with bonuses and penalties applying to elements other than the hand that they apply to, at least in the 2nd game, though that might be due to the significantly larger number of customization items and slots. I'm probably thinking of the +def and +ability mod tweaks applying globally and doing weird things to your attributes.
They may have changed it in the second game. They changed a lot that isn't immediately apparent. But I just tested again in the first game to be sure. Attack bonus of +1 on the off hand made it go from +2/-2 to +2/-1.

The defense bonus is added to the character, though, and that is one issue I've run into. I was planning to restrict short lightsabers to the off hand for this reason.


The simplest method of doing this, in my mind, is to have the power make your lightsaber constantly flicker while drawn and the power/feat/whatever is active (and, if possible, just during your attacks). It's kind of a cheap cop-out, but anything more appropriate would definitely require a major reworking of the animations.
That might be possible, but it would have to be restricted by item... although another thing I'm working on allows for an item to be unequipped during combat and replaced with another instantly, so it might be doable in some way.


KotOR's Sneak Attack is the single worst and most obfuscated mechanic in the entire series. I have yet to see Sneak Attack operate reliably outside of the 2 precisely controllable situations that it applies: when a target is stunned (which is why most SA driven builds tend to use stun->flurry in order to get SA) or when you are stealthed and out of combat (and only for the first attack from stealth). I'm not sure if it's programmatically possible to have the "stealthed" flag stuck on true for the purpose of attacks while preserving the ability for it to vary appropriately in every other context. If it's possible, that would probably be the optimal way to accomplish it, but I readily admit that I'm not familiar with KotOR's back end.
I'm not sure if it's possible either, although scripting a stun should be easy enough... if Sneak Attack reliably works in that situation, then that would apply. There are also other behavioral states that are unused by the game, and maybe possible to script. Or if it's executed through a spell, it could simply deal the bonus damage directly.

So, with all that in mind, here's the new table:


Lightsabers


Type
Model
Size
Base Damage
Damage Bonus
Melee Enhancement
Attack
Defense
Blaster Deflection
Critical
Additional Properties



Lightsaber
L
1
2d8
+1




19-20, x2




Lightsaber (CEC)
L
1
2d8


+2
+1

17-20, x2




Lightsaber (Crystal Lens)
L
1
2d8
+2

-2

+2
19-20, x2




Lightsaber (Unstable)
L
1
2d8
+1d6

-2
-1

19-20, x2




Double-Bladed Lightsaber
D
2
2d10
+1




20-20, x2




Double-Bladed Lightsaber (CEC)
D
2
2d10


+2
+1

19-20, x2




Double-Bladed Lightsaber (Crystal Lens)
D
2
2d10
+2

-2

+2
20-20, x2




Double-Bladed Lightsaber (Unstable)
D
2
2d10
+1d6

-2
-1

20-20, x2




Longsaber
G
2
3d8
+1




20-20, x3




Longsaber (CEC)
G
2
3d8


+2
+1

19-20, x3




Longsaber (Crystal Lens)
G
2
3d8
+2

-2

+2
20-20, x3




Longsaber (Unstable)
G
2
3d8
+1d6

-2
-1

20-20, x3




Short Lightsaber
S
0
2d6
+1


+4

19-20, x2
Master Two-Weapon Fighting, Not Upgradeable



Short Lightsaber (Unstable)
S
0
2d6
+1d6

-2
+3

19-20, x2
Master Two-Weapon Fighting, Not Upgradeable



I have one more type that I'm going to add, but I need to do some testing to see what is and isn't possible. I think I'm otherwise ready to proceed with testing based on those stats.

ThePurple
2016-04-08, 05:51 PM
Fair enough. One thing I'm trying to do is make all options viable - especially a single blade, since that's what most Jedi use! - but as you say, the game doesn't really allow for it. I'm still worried about the longsaber with CEC being obviously superior to the standard saber, but I might have to live with that. I'm working on another single-bladed option that might be viable, anyway.

One option might be to provide something like "focus sabers" that provide no default combat benefits but specifically augment your ability modifiers. So, instead of providing +1 damage or what have you, they provide +1 to WIS and CHA, with Unstable focus sabers providing something like -1 WIS and +4 CHA (since it also makes you unstable) and the other-crystal focus sabers providing similar variations (CEC providing +3 WIS and lens providing +2 WIS and +2 CHA).

The intent, of course, was to have the dueling feat tree provide the single saber optimization benefit (even though said benefit was laughable compared to the two weapon tree), but, as you've stated, for some reason longsabers get the benefit of dueling so that's not really relevant any more.

Of course, the argument could always be made that the "standard" lightsaber is actually a longsaber (since anyone who wields a lone lightsaber almost always wields it in two hands while striking) and the stats for a "standard" lightsaber are just those used for a lightsaber wielded in a single hand.


I'm not sure if it's possible either, although scripting a stun should be easy enough... if Sneak Attack reliably works in that situation, then that would apply. There are also other behavioral states that are unused by the game, and maybe possible to script. Or if it's executed through a spell, it could simply deal the bonus damage directly.

Scripting a stun would be a bit OP, though, and wouldn't work in all contexts because there are some entities (like bosses) that are immune to stuns.

Is it possible to create a feat that is used exclusively as a requirement for a specific weapon (e.g. the feat is "empty" but still exists enough it can qualify for weapon requirements)?

If you did that along with creating a unique behavioral state that activates Sneak Attack (which, I think, has more to do with Sneak Attack checking for the state than the behavioral state itself), you could have some longsabers be "flicker" sabers that require the newly created Trakata feat to use (which has the exclusive purpose of allowing you to use a "flicker saber") and provide that new behavioral state whose only purpose is to trigger Sneak Attack damage. It also solves the problem of needing a unique saber to get the Trakata visual effect since the only weapon that *could* be used with Trakata would be the flicker sabers that already have the intended visual effect. You might also want to consider having the "flicker" sabers (though I'm thinking that renaming them "Trakata sabers" might be better) provide a Sneak Attack feat or two (Trakata feat itself if possible, would so that it provides Sneak Attack in addition to qualifying for the weapon that lets you Sneak Attack unconditionally).

JCarter426
2016-04-08, 06:30 PM
One option might be to provide something like "focus sabers" that provide no default combat benefits but specifically augment your ability modifiers. So, instead of providing +1 damage or what have you, they provide +1 to WIS and CHA, with Unstable focus sabers providing something like -1 WIS and +4 CHA (since it also makes you unstable) and the other-crystal focus sabers providing similar variations (CEC providing +3 WIS and lens providing +2 WIS and +2 CHA).
I considered this as another crystal type - crystals for a more Force oriented build, but I wasn't sure what to call them, or what stats to use, and I'm wary of allowing for them to be built from scratch like the other crystal types, since attribute modifiers can get ridiculous. Maybe allowing for one crystal of each type, or something like that... sort of like a Tome of Clear Thought, Manual of Gainful Exercise, etc, but with crystals.


Of course, the argument could always be made that the "standard" lightsaber is actually a longsaber (since anyone who wields a lone lightsaber almost always wields it in two hands while striking) and the stats for a "standard" lightsaber are just those used for a lightsaber wielded in a single hand.
Well, the longsaber is literally longer than the standard saber here. But I get what you mean. The only gripe I have is mechanically you should be able to treat a standard lightsaber as a two-handed weapon, but you can't.


Scripting a stun would be a bit OP, though, and wouldn't work in all contexts because there are some entities (like bosses) that are immune to stuns.
Well, the stun would still be only a chance on hit, and could be limited to a single round... but I forgot about stun immunity. So scratch that.


I believe so... in fact I'm reasonably sure.

[quote]If you did that along with creating a unique behavioral state that activates Sneak Attack (which, I think, has more to do with Sneak Attack checking for the state than the behavioral state itself), you could have some longsabers be "flicker" sabers that require the newly created Trakata feat to use (which has the exclusive purpose of allowing you to use a "flicker saber") and provide that new behavioral state whose only purpose is to trigger Sneak Attack damage. It also solves the problem of needing a unique saber to get the Trakata visual effect since the only weapon that *could* be used with Trakata would be the flicker sabers that already have the intended visual effect. You might also want to consider having the "flicker" sabers (though I'm thinking that renaming them "Trakata sabers" might be better) provide a Sneak Attack feat or two (Trakata feat itself if possible, would so that it provides Sneak Attack in addition to qualifying for the weapon that lets you Sneak Attack unconditionally).
Hmm, I'm not sure how much of that would be functional. I'd have to do some more testing to see what's viable. I think adding it as a spell - either as a Force power or equipping an item that grants the spell - may be easier. But there may be some obstacle I haven't considered.

I've been playing with something along those lines already - the dual-phase lightsaber. The idea is for it to grant a special ability to swap out the lightsaber type, but I ran into two problems with it. First, there's no way to tie the special ability to the lightsaber; it either has to be a Force power or you have to equip a different item to get the spell. The second issue is there's no way to determine through scripting what upgrade items a weapon has... so while you may be able to move the item back and forth, there's no way to duplicate it or destroy it and then bring it back again, or even just see what's there.

So I'm thinking if there's a way to send the Trakata saber into a pocket dimension - not in the player's hands, not in the equipment screen, but without destroying the item - for the duration of the spell, while replacing it with a dummy saber with no blade, or with a flickering effect, or whatever, then bring it back... it would work. In theory. But I'm still figuring out if all of that can be done.