Question About Insane Defiance Vile Feat [3.5]

[Doctor Despair]

Hello! So Insane Defiance is a vile feat from Elder Evils that reads:

As an immediate action, whenever you are the target of a mind-affecting spell or spell-like ability, you can take 1 point of Wisdom damage to retarget the effect to another creature of your choice within the effect's range. The new target takes a —4 circumstance penalty on its saving throw, if any, against that effect.

If a character is immune to abilities damage, can they invoke this feat with the way it is phrased, "... you can take 1 point of Wisdom damage to retarget..."?

Is there any other way to circumvent this feat for those not immune to wisdom damage, or is the feat just really broken that way? Sounds like a one-stop feat to get a super easy immunity to dominators and all manner of mind-affecting things.

[Troacctid]

It is phrased such that you need to take the Wisdom damage, so it won't be useful if you can't take Wisdom damage.

Wisdom damage is quite easy to heal, however. Just cast Lesser Restoration after combat. You can get it in a wand. Or, if you have high Con, the Mind Over Body feat will fix ability damage pretty effectively.

If you want to become properly "immune", you can bind Naberius to heal it off automatically.

Remember, you can still only use the feat once per round, so while you can no-sell a single Mind Flayer, you may be in trouble if a second one shows up at the same time.

[Doctor Despair]

It is phrased such that you need to take the Wisdom damage, so it won't be useful if you can't take Wisdom damage.

Wisdom damage is quite easy to heal, however. Just cast Lesser Restoration after combat. You can get it in a wand. Or, if you have high Con, the Mind Over Body feat will fix ability damage pretty effectively.

If you want to become properly "immune", you can bind Naberius to heal it off automatically.

Remember, you can still only use the feat once per round, so while you can no-sell a single Mind Flayer, you may be in trouble if a second one shows up at the same time.

I'm currently playing as a bard in the campaign with Music of the Gods as an epic feat; is there a spell that you know of that renders a target immune to ability damage for a time? I'm concerned about random NPCs being immune to my bardic fascinations and whatnot and I'm trying to see if there's some sort of out. Otherwise... well, if there isn't, I definitely see this feat featuring in some of my future builds, haha.

[Ger. Bessa]

I'm currently playing as a bard in the campaign with Music of the Gods as an epic feat; is there a spell that you know of that renders a target immune to ability damage for a time? I'm concerned about random NPCs being immune to my bardic fascinations and whatnot and I'm trying to see if there's some sort of out. Otherwise... well, if there isn't, I definitely see this feat featuring in some of my future builds, haha.

Any spell that grants you undead immunities does that. I think it's 'veil of undeath' but I'm not sure. Otoh the requiem feat allows music to affect undead.

[Doctor Despair]

Any spell that grants you undead immunities does that. I think it's 'veil of undeath' but I'm not sure. Otoh the requiem feat allows music to affect undead.

Sheltered Vitality seems like a useful spell to proc with a wand! Of course it requires a touch, but a bard should be able to do that pretty easily. :) Not that those with this feat should appear very often, haha.

[Troacctid]

Just catch them flat-footed so they can't take immediate actions.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wow, that feat's just plain stupid...

[Doctor Despair]

Wow, that feat's just plain stupid...

Right? When I first saw it I almost didn't believe it was real, haha. It has a janky homebrew feel to it -- though I suppose this is the first time I'm seeing vile feats, so perhaps that is just their flavor.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Right? When I first saw it I almost didn't believe it was real, haha. It has a janky homebrew feel to it -- though I suppose this is the first time I'm seeing vile feats, so perhaps that is just their flavor.

IIRC, Elder Evils had a lot of content for NPC villains that was intentionally over the top powerful. But the ability to automatically shrug off any mind-affecting attack AND use it on someone else of your choosing for the mere price of 1 easily-healed (bind Naberius, for example) Wisdom damage? That's beyond mere overpowered, that's just stupid.

[Necroticplague]

Eh. Immunity to mind effecting is hilariously easy to come by, so that's not much of a factor in its power. Heck, its prerequisite makes it pretty easy to have a different vile feat that flat-out gives mind-effecting immunity by that time, without a wisdom damage cost or a one/turn limit. I'd say its only decent. Immediate action to reflect back an attack that's very easy to no-sell and will usually allow SR and a will save seems appropriate for a feat you'll qualify for at 6.

[weckar]

Another nice example of "Good guys can't have nice things"...

[Inevitability]

Another nice example of "Good guys can't have nice things"...

*cough*Words of Creation, Champion of Gwynharwyf, Ancestral Relic, Create Lantern Archon and so on*cough*

[Necroticplague]

*cough*Words of Creation, Champion of Gwynharwyf, Ancestral Relic, Create Lantern Archon and so on*cough*
*grgle*rainbow servant, greater luminous armor, Good Lich*cloroph*

[Inevitability]

*grgle*rainbow servant, greater luminous armor, Good Lich*cloroph*

I considered rainbow servant (it's Ur Priest for do-gooders, after all), but figured it isn't solely good, as you can still enter it if you're LN and TN. Luminous armor is a good example, though.

[weckar]

Meh, mostly basing my ideas on the Evil get near free near infinite armies in the form of Undead. Little of what Good gets weighs up against such a major feature of the game.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Eh. Immunity to mind effecting is hilariously easy to come by, so that's not much of a factor in its power. Heck, its prerequisite makes it pretty easy to have a different vile feat that flat-out gives mind-effecting immunity by that time, without a wisdom damage cost or a one/turn limit. I'd say its only decent. Immediate action to reflect back an attack that's very easy to no-sell and will usually allow SR and a will save seems appropriate for a feat you'll qualify for at 6.

There are other effects to reflect attacks back, but they usually require the foe to miss you or fail the attack first, or you to beat them on some opposed roll (Spell Reflection alt. class feature; various counters in Tome of Battle like Fool's Strike). Spell Turning's the only one I can think of that just outright reflects, and that's high level and very limited amount of spell levels it can send back per casting.

Friendly Fire spell doesn't, but that's one of the most broken spells in the game and also from Elder Evils.

[Necroticplague]

There are other effects to reflect attacks back, but they usually require the foe to miss you or fail the attack first, or you to beat them on some opposed roll (Spell Reflection alt. class feature; various counters in Tome of Battle like Fool's Strike). Spell Turning's the only one I can think of that just outright reflects, and that's high level and very limited amount of spell levels it can send back per casting.
Well, since Spell Turning is the closest thing, let's compare the two, shall we. Insane Defiance

1.Only works against a specific type of spell/SLA (mind effecting).
1b.Which is of a type that's very easy to get immune to, and almost always allows both a save and SR.
2.Eats up an immediate action (or a swift for the next turn).
3.Can't be used when flat-footed
4.causes wisdom damage with each use.
With the only upside in it's favor being it doesn't have a level limit as to what it can deflect.

[daremetoidareyo]

Question: Say that it is dominate monster that is being reflected. If you insanely defy that, and use it to target the caster instead, do they dominate themselves? How does that work? I imagine it is like ambien tripping. If someone has this feat, do the commands have to be vocalized first, before the spell is cast, or do they come after the spell takes effect? (Like when you hypnotize someone)

[Necroticplague]

Question: Say that it is dominate monster that is being reflected. If you insanely defy that, and use it to target the caster instead, do they dominate themselves?
Yes. Doesn't say it changes who the caster is considered to be.


How does that work? Quiet easily

I imagine it is like ambien tripping.No clue what ambien is, but I know how this ends up working. The subject ends up Dominated by themselves. As a result, they have to follow their own orders. You might recognize this as "how things normally work". However, an important distinction is that if someone else tries to mind control them, then they can give themselves conflicting orders in order to force a CHA check to make them do anything.


If someone has this feat, do the commands have to be vocalized first, before the spell is cast, or do they come after the spell takes effect? (Like when you hypnotize someone)They come after the spell is cast. until then, the mental link that allows for orders doesn't exist.

[Telonius]

No clue what ambien is, but I know how this ends up working. The subject ends up Dominated by themselves. As a result, they have to follow their own orders. You might recognize this as "how things normally work". However, an important distinction is that if someone else tries to mind control them, then they can give themselves conflicting orders in order to force a CHA check to make them do anything.

If the target is a Paladin of Freedom, they immediately collapse into an existential crisis.