Best Wizard Specialization for Minonmancy: Conjurer vs. Necromancer

[Phanixis]

I have recently started playing 5e after a decade or so of playing 3e/3.5e/pathfinder. I have always been a fan of summoning and I am happy to see it return in 5e. However, with the new concentration system and longer casting times, summoning is a bit more restrictive. So I am wondering which route is better to pursue, conjuration or animate dead. Animate dead comes online two levels sooner (but probably only one if you want to use the free Necromancer spell) and doesn't require concentration, the latter being a huge point in its favor, but is limited in what it can "summon" and requires a ready supply of fresh corpses. Conjure minor elemental and conjure elemental are far more flexible in what they can summon and don't introduce the logistical problems associated with having undead travel with the party but they do tie up concentration and aren't available on a semi permanent basis, meaning that if the party gets into a fight it wasn't expecting they probably won't be available. It is an interesting trade off and I was wondering what people's experiences are with these two specializations.

Grant nothing stops Necromancers from conjuring elementals or Conjurers from animating dead, but they miss out on some nifty bonuses they would otherwise have. There is also the Animate Objects spell, which works equally well for either specialization.

It does seem the Necromancer wins out at low levels though, he is picking up Animate Dead at least one level before the Conjurer gets Conjure Minor Elementals and his minionmancy perk comes in 4 levels before the Conjurer's first minonmancy perk (although benign transposition is by no means bad).

So which specialization would other fans of minionmancy recommend?

[tieren]

Best minion caller is the druid.

[JumboWheat01]

Druids are top-of-the-line minionmancers. Still, Conjuration does give you a bit more flexibility for your summonings over Necromancy. All you need to do is run into an enemy with Cleric levels and you might as well forget about your undead. And while Conjuration summons eat up your concentration slot, at the same time (well, once you get high enough,) your concentration can't be broken with ANY Conjuration spell. That gives you a very powerful feature that almost lets you ignore the need for Resilience (CON) and maybe slot in another feat there.

[Gtdead]

The obvious advantage of necromancer is that his spell doesn't require concentration and the minions are ranged. So he can just mass skeleton that hit pretty hard. Conjure minor elementals can't summon ranged minions and at lower levels you only have the option of suicidal mephits for damage.

I feel that conjuration is better for flavor and a social campaign but I'd rather go for necromancy if I wanted to optimize for combat.

Druid on the other side has all the broken spells. Damn pixies polymorphing everyone into dinos, wolves knocking everyone down. Whatever.

[JoeJ]

The best minionmancy spell isn't either of those, it's Fabricate, used as follows:

1. Use Fabricate to create saleable goods.
2. Sell the goods.
3. Use the money to hire mercenaries for 2 gp per day each.

No smelly undead, no concentration, no running out of spell slots in the middle of a dungeon. No need to worry about where to put them when you're in town; they have money so they can find their own lodging. They're smart enough to understand complex orders, and if you treat them right, they will become more loyal over time.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Conjuration looks nice, but doesn't get any spell love.

So your fancy specialty features are wasted...

Necro skeleton army wins.

Druid is grand and is mostly limited by your DM.

[BurgTurdler]

In addition to all the fun up above, would you guys mind telling me you favorite ways to be creative with the druid and the things s/he can conjure? I love this idea and can't wait to try it out but I'm not the most experienced with druids or conjuration. Never played either.

Thanks! I'm going to get some popcorn and enjoy this mental show about all the crazy whackadoo things that everyone can come up with!

[Joe the Rat]

Necro gets more (+1) and better (+Wizard level HP, +prof bonus to damage) undead starting at 6.
Conjurer gets unbreakable concentration for conjurations at 10, and a 30thp buffer for conjured critters at 14.

Necromancer comes online much sooner, and masses troops faster. Conjurer can get some big late-game critters, or field 16-32 really minor elementals with 30 extra hp to fill the field.

Of the two, I'd go necro for the earlier persistent minions, and add the conjurations to my spell book for some big guns summons, and enjoy the chaos when I fail the concentration check.

[Gastronomie]

In addition to all the fun up above, would you guys mind telling me you favorite ways to be creative with the druid and the things s/he can conjure? I love this idea and can't wait to try it out but I'm not the most experienced with druids or conjuration. Never played either.

Thanks! I'm going to get some popcorn and enjoy this mental show about all the crazy whackadoo things that everyone can come up with!

>Conjure Woodland Beings
>Summon 8 Pixies
>Have them Polymorph 4 party members into Giant Crocodiles
>Have them cast Fly 4 times on the 4 Giant Crocodiles
>Giant Crocodiles bite, grappling 4 enemies
>The Giant Crocodiles fly up into the air
>Keep on biting and tail-swinging
>When you're high-up enough, drop them
>????
>profit

[BurgTurdler]

>Conjure Woodland Beings
>Summon 8 Pixies
>Have them Polymorph 4 party members into Giant Crocodiles
>Have them cast Fly 4 times on the 4 Giant Crocodiles
>Giant Crocodiles bite, grappling 4 enemies
>The Giant Crocodiles fly up into the air
>Keep on biting and tail-swinging
>When you're high-up enough, drop them
>????
>profit

Hahahaha... Love it!

[uraniumrooster]

Technically, the DM is supposed to pick what creatures answer your summons when you cast one of the "Conjure X" spells. Most of the DMs I know won't enforce this, but it's worth considering. If you do have a DM who is going to determine the result of your conjuration spells, that's a point against Conjurer and Druid. Otherwise, I would say they're probably the better bet for ease of use alone, plus the versatility and other benefits (like the previously mentioned pixie-spam).

As a Necromancer, you can amass a huge horde of Skeletons and/or Zombies as long as you have the corpses for it. Create Undead at later levels also allows you to make Wights, which can raise their own minions in turn, sort of acting as lieutenants in your undead army. The numbers get pretty comically large (to get an idea of the potential army size, see here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?462738-Max-Army-of-Darkness-Necromancer-Math)), but it takes some bookkeeping to keep track of them all and make sure you're expending the correct number of spell slots each day to maintain control. Then in combat you end up rolling tons of crappy attacks, most of which are likely to miss, but that can still do large amounts of damage thanks to the sheer numbers (and it requires large numbers of undead for it to be a competitive us of your spell slots, especially at high levels). If your DM makes you buy equipment and keep track of arrows for your horde, it can get to be pretty expensive (by RAW, skeletons would automatically come into being with armor scraps, shortsword and shortbow, but some DMs might reasonably overrule that if the bones you animated didn't have any equipment). There's also resistance/immunity to magic weapons to consider... it's unlikely you'll be able to equip your whole horde with magic weapons, so they'll be weak or ineffective against many monsters even in the mid-levels (silver arrows can help against some, or magic ammunition if your DM allows you to buy it, but that would again get to be very expensive).

Basically, if you want ease of play and flexibility, go Conjurer or Druid. If you want a massive army of undead minions, go Necromancer. I'd also recommend talking to your DM before you decide to go Necro to make sure they're okay with you attempting to build up a massive undead army. It can eat up a lot of table time and potentially derail a campaign, and it really only works if the DM is willing to more or less embrace it and play along, making your horde a part of the storyline.

[MaxWilson]

Technically, the DM is supposed to pick what creatures answer your summons when you cast one of the "Conjure X" spells. Most of the DMs I know won't enforce this, but it's worth considering. If you do have a DM who is going to determine the result of your conjuration spells, that's a point against Conjurer and Druid. Otherwise, I would say they're probably the better bet for ease of use alone, plus the versatility and other benefits (like the previously mentioned pixie-spam).

As a Necromancer, you can amass a huge horde of Skeletons and/or Zombies as long as you have the corpses for it. Create Undead at later levels also allows you to make Wights, which can raise their own minions in turn, sort of acting as lieutenants in your undead army. The numbers get pretty comically large (to get an idea of the potential army size, see here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?462738-Max-Army-of-Darkness-Necromancer-Math)), but it takes some bookkeeping to keep track of them all and make sure you're expending the correct number of spell slots each day to maintain control. Then in combat you end up rolling tons of crappy attacks, most of which are likely to miss, but that can still do large amounts of damage thanks to the sheer numbers (and it requires large numbers of undead for it to be a competitive us of your spell slots, especially at high levels). If your DM makes you buy equipment and keep track of arrows for your horde, it can get to be pretty expensive (by RAW, skeletons would automatically come into being with armor scraps, shortsword and shortbow, but some DMs might reasonably overrule that if the bones you animated didn't have any equipment). There's also resistance/immunity to magic weapons to consider... it's unlikely you'll be able to equip your whole horde with magic weapons, so they'll be weak or ineffective against many monsters even in the mid-levels (silver arrows can help against some, or magic ammunition if your DM allows you to buy it, but that would again get to be very expensive).

Basically, if you want ease of play and flexibility, go Conjurer or Druid. If you want a massive army of undead minions, go Necromancer. I'd also recommend talking to your DM before you decide to go Necro to make sure they're okay with you attempting to build up a massive undead army. It can eat up a lot of table time and potentially derail a campaign, and it really only works if the DM is willing to more or less embrace it and play along, making your horde a part of the storyline.

All of the above are good points, to which I would like to add another point:

Necromancers' relative advantage is highest at low-to-mid-levels. At levels 6-11ish, the Necromancer's Army of Darkness is second to nothing. But there's little point in computing "Theoretical max Army of Darkness" at 20th level because at that point, a minionmancer will have better toys than a bunch of skeletons and zombies anyway. By that point you can be True Polymorphing trees into Nycaloths and Planar Binding them for a year and a day each, or Creating Undead wights and Geasing/Mass Suggestioning them to your service; and Nycaloths >> skeletons. It's always nice to have at least a few skeletons along for ranged firepower, and they are very cheap and disposable, but I'd be surprised if you ever in a real game wound up with more than 20-40 skeletons at a time because they're just too unwieldy.

By 20th level you should be playing with hundreds of Glabrezu and Nycaloths and Wights led by at least a couple of Mummy Lords and a Simulacrum of a 20th level Necromancer; if you're just playing with 146 skeletons you're playing like a chump.

[Gastronomie]

The main problem with Necromancers is that it's extremely difficult to maintian the entire army in a city, or anywhere where people might be looking at you and your zombies/skeletons. Animate Dead works better when it's re-dominating undead instead of first summoning them, and that requires you be with them for extended periods of time.

Some DMs allow you to tuck an entire army into a Bag of Holding, in which case this problem is solved. Others will not, in which case you need to either convince the townsfolk that you're a harmless necromancer, or simply stay away from towns (of course, in some campaigns necromancy might be part of everyday life and the people might not get terrified in the first place, but anyways).

By raw, a level 10 necromancer wizard can control up to 56 zombies/skeletons (if he’s not using any spells of level 3 or higher besides Animate Dead, and including spell slots regained by Arcane Recovery).

A Level 10 character will probably have enough money to equip 56 skeletons with shortbows (25x56=1400 GP, even with tons and tons of ammo, well below 2000 GP. Not easy money, but something you could earn easily by this point). Each skeleton’s attack is a +4 to hit and does 1d6+6, average 9.5 piercing damage (this damage including proficiency bonus with the Undead Thrall ability), its range 80/320.

Now, a Young Red Dragon (CR 10) has an AC of 18 and 178 HP. Attack rolls of 14 and higher hit the dragon, meaning 7/20 of the attacks hit. 19.6 hits on average, so let’s say it’s 20 hits to make the math easier.

This amounts to 190 damage per round to an AC 18 monster. This is enough to kill the dragon in the first turn. Even if you roll bad rolls and it isn’t enough to finish it off, no doubt the dragon will die if you add together the normal weapon attacks of the other player characters.

This eventually grows to a maximum of 154 zombies/skeletons at level 20. +4 to attack rolls, each hit being 1d6+8, average 11.5 damage, 154 attacks per round. Let’s make this fight an Ancient White Dragon (CR 20), AC 20, HP 333.

Original attack rolls of 16 or higher hit, meaning 5/20=1/4 of the attacks can deal damage - it’s 38.5 hits average. Multiply this by 11.5 (the average damage dealt per attack) and it’s 442.75 damage. 443 damage to an AC 20 monster every round. Now what was Meteor Swarm again?

Now, of course, this isn’t what actually happens in-game. First of all, there's a lot of good high-level spells and options you're gonna miss if you convert all spell slots into zombies, so it's not a really good idea - more of an experiment I did above right there. Also, no doubt a lot of the skeletons will “die” (okay, more like, “have their HP become 0”) before their turns in actual combat against the dragons. And the number of undead minions will keep on decreasing with every fight during that day. A single good spell may be enough to incinerate your army whole and leave you as a weak 3rd-level caster, unless you think carefully of how you build their formation prior to the actual fight (which I personally think is a pretty interesting concept – arranging formations of skeleton armies. Totally badass).

Also, most powerful antagonists will have various traps and minions that will cleave through your undead army before they reach the main chamber. So don’t expect yourself to be able to constantly control dozens of them for each and every boss battle.

But still, it’s very powerful.

The actual necromancer should just cast Greater Invisibility upon himself and hide somewhere. If required, use Shield and Misty Step to escape. You could always leave a level 3 slot or something for stuff like Hypnotic Pattern and such, if you're scared.

Add how undead aren’t useful in only combats. They’re useful for a variety of other purposes as well, making them extremely useful anytime, anywhere, as long as you have enough dead bodies (which can be found anywhere in a D&D world – yay!!).

One way is to run a workshop or a factory with skeleton minions. Workers that don’t require food or sleep or money, working non-stop 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and they don’t even start bragging about labor standards. You need to poke your head in there at least once every day, though, so you might need to close it for a brief while whenever you’re going out of town. Otherwise the city’s workshop might be from where a terrible zombie apocalypse breaks out...

EDIT: That above-post idea of the EVIL ARMY OF DOOM is pretty darn badass. Amazing.

[uraniumrooster]

All of the above are good points, to which I would like to add another point:

Necromancers' relative advantage is highest at low-to-mid-levels. At levels 6-11ish, the Necromancer's Army of Darkness is second to nothing. But there's little point in computing "Theoretical max Army of Darkness" at 20th level because at that point, a minionmancer will have better toys than a bunch of skeletons and zombies anyway. By that point you can be True Polymorphing trees into Nycaloths and Planar Binding them for a year and a day each, or Creating Undead wights and Geasing/Mass Suggestioning them to your service; and Nycaloths >> skeletons. It's always nice to have at least a few skeletons along for ranged firepower, and they are very cheap and disposable, but I'd be surprised if you ever in a real game wound up with more than 20-40 skeletons at a time because they're just too unwieldy.

By 20th level you should be playing with hundreds of Glabrezu and Nycaloths and Wights led by at least a couple of Mummy Lords and a Simulacrum of a 20th level Necromancer; if you're just playing with 146 skeletons you're playing like a chump.

Haha! Touche.

The moral of the story is that Wizards are the best class if you want to make the other party members completely irrelevant at high levels.
Paladin's Turn: "I make THREE attacks, with some BIG divine smite damage! Ooooh yeah!"
Wizard's Turn: "Wow, that's pretty cool, pally. I'm still in my PJs eating pancakes in my Magnificent Mansion, can I use my object interaction to pour more syrup on top? Oh! And my army of extraplanar/undead minions conquers half the continent."
Druid's Turn: "Um, I can summon 8 pixies?"

[BurgTurdler]

OMG I love you guys. This is THE BEST. I can't wait to design a whole economy and social structure based on undead. Just like robots in iRobot. They'll be ubiquitous. Involved in every aspect of life. The poeple will be like the wizarding world in harry potter. Totally clueless about how to do most things because the skeletons always did it. I'll start off the characters all standing around the primarch necromancer with a sword in him, he breathes his last breath, and dies. You hear screaming and a crash from a nearby room... and much more screaming from the distance. "What do you do?" Hahahahahaha... That's going to be awesome! Do the PC's try to reestablish the power structure of the region or thwart it and fight hordes of the undead with no master. Will they accept the responsibility for the fall of civilization or work to stop it. How much can they really do? How will the world change? What will fill the void?

I can see the looks on their faces now as I introduce this to them... Freakin' priceless.



Kyara(my daughter), I'm sending you the link to this thread because it's ridiculously awesome but you better keep your mouth shut about this or I'll make your favorite necromancer the guy that gets killed to start it all.:xykon:

[Gastronomie]

Haha! Touche.

The moral of the story is that Wizards are the best class if you want to make the other party members completely irrelevant at high levels.
Paladin's Turn: "I make THREE attacks, with some BIG divine smite damage! Ooooh yeah!"
Wizard's Turn: "Wow, that's pretty cool, pally. I'm still in my PJs eating pancakes in my Magnificent Mansion, can I use my object interaction to pour more syrup on top? Oh! And my army of extraplanar/undead minions conquers half the continent."
Druid's Turn: "Um, I can summon 8 pixies?"Well, according to the DMG, epic-level characters are all historical figures, like a "Cleric taken up into the heavens to serve as a god's right hand", a "Warlock who becomes a patron to other warlocks", and a "Druid that transformed into an aspect of the wild" and so on... which does actually make it difficult to justify them fighting the enemies using their own hands.

Like, a Level 20 Paladin would not be just a Paladin, but the chief commander of an entire Sacred Order he built up from scratch. All of nature and wildlife will heed the will of a Level 20 Druid. The Wizard is the only class that actually says what sorts of wonders he can do in his abilities (his spell list), but I'd also expect a Paladin to be able to move whole batallions of paladins into some headquarters of the demonic forces, or have the Druid summon forth all the animals in the forest, if the party Wizard started to do something like what's been mentioned above.

[MaxWilson]

Haha! Touche.

The moral of the story is that Wizards are the best class if you want to make the other party members completely irrelevant at high levels.
Paladin's Turn: "I make THREE attacks, with some BIG divine smite damage! Ooooh yeah!"
Wizard's Turn: "Wow, that's pretty cool, pally. I'm still in my PJs eating pancakes in my Magnificent Mansion, can I use my object interaction to pour more syrup on top? Oh! And my army of extraplanar/undead minions conquers half the continent."
Druid's Turn: "Um, I can summon 8 pixies?"

LOL. :)

But seriously, druids are about as good as wizards and bards at the Planar Binding deal. Actually a druid and a wizard or bard make a good team: the wizard/bard produces the Couatls and Nycaloths via True Polymorph, and the druid Planar Binds them. That way you get the job done twice as fast, and you don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Druids can also Conjure Fey like Green Hags and Planar Bind them, then link them up into a coven for more spellcasting. Just expect to pay weregild for all the children the Green Hags eat behind your back. (That's one reason Planar Binding Couatls is more likely to work out than Planar Binding demons and hags: Couatls are nicer.)

And of course Conjure Animals is awesome, and unlike Planar Binding it is short-term and free instead of long-term with a gold cost: tactical instead of strategic. I saw a thread on here yesterday that talked about a random dungeon generator that sometimes will throw 10 young blue dragons at a 10th level party; that's about the level of difficulty you have to face in order for a party full of Moon Druids and Necromancers to have a chance of losing.

[Joe the Rat]

OMG I love you guys. This is THE BEST. I can't wait to design a whole economy and social structure based on undead. Just like robots in iRobot. They'll be ubiquitous. Involved in every aspect of life. The poeple will be like the wizarding world in harry potter. Totally clueless about how to do most things because the skeletons always did it. I'll start off the characters all standing around the primarch necromancer with a sword in him, he breathes his last breath, and dies. You hear screaming and a crash from a nearby room... and much more screaming from the distance. "What do you do?" Hahahahahaha... That's going to be awesome! Do the PC's try to reestablish the power structure of the region or thwart it and fight hordes of the undead with no master. Will they accept the responsibility for the fall of civilization or work to stop it. How much can they really do? How will the world change? What will fill the void?When building an necro-industrial society, My recommendation is to use skeletons. It avoids the whole rotting meat issue - important for aesthetic (smell) and health (disease) reasons. Plus it removes any issues people would have seeing the shambling corpse of Nana wandering around. They're easier to clean. too. If leering skulls does not fit the aesthetic of the society, I could see masks and other arrainments being used. It's a good visual to ownership, as well as assigned tasks.

Zombies would be better used away from public venues. Mining and farming, to put the strength and bloodmeal production to good use, or as heavy guards of secret places. The smell of a zombie warns where one should not tread. That said, some sort of "Zombie Fresh" spell (Gentle Repose, only for after the body has been animated) would make zombie servants a bit of a status symbol. You are either a capable necromancer yourself, or can afford to pay one to spare some spell slots every tenday or so. Masks are mandatory here.

[Zalabim]

True Polymorph is available from Bard, Wizard, and Warlock. Planar Binding is available from Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard. Magic Circle is available natively from Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, and Wizard. So a wizard can do this all alone using Simulacrum and more time and money, but a good selection of spellcasters can help with this in some way. Even an EK could cast the Magic Circle that lasts 2 hours. Pity the sorcerer.

A word of caution, besides the inevitable heroes who arrive to stop your evil army:
Glabrezu and Nycoloths can Dispel Magic at-will, so they'll have to be tightly controlled to cast Planar Binding at one. True Polymorph only lasts long enough to get one cast completed. Magic Circle helps with the cleanup, but they can break it. Glabrezu can pass a DC 19 Cha save 43.75% of the time, and Nycoloths 36% of the time, so it'll cost 1000 GP per attempt and get you a minion 9/16 to 2/3 of the time. The failures will have to be disposed of somehow. Even the successes will be prone to follow your exact words.

Geas doesn't stop a wight from disobeying you, just punishes them when they do, so expect some mishaps there too. Especially so if they find out the punishment is only a slap on the wrist. Mass Suggestion is harder to disobey, but maybe not as flexible for orders.

Always remember "your evil army" is more "evil" than it is "your army." They are the most obedient when first created and can get more free-willed as time goes on. Couatls are a kinder, safer, and lower level option, but weaker than the fiends talked about here.

[MaxWilson]

Geas doesn't stop a wight from disobeying you, just punishes them when they do, so expect some mishaps there too. Especially so if they find out the punishment is only a slap on the wrist. Mass Suggestion is harder to disobey, but maybe not as flexible for orders.

The purpose of Geas is mostly for the Charm effect, so you have more influence with them AND they can't attack you. Then Mass Suggestion on top of that is the basis of your actual control.


Always remember "your evil army" is more "evil" than it is "your army." They are the most obedient when first created and can get more free-willed as time goes on. Couatls are a kinder, safer, and lower level option, but weaker than the fiends talked about here.

So much this.

Couatls aren't that much weaker than fiends BTW. They're outright immune to normal weapons, have AC 24 when Shielding, and have a bunch of spells and truesight and polymorph capabilities. The main things that make them weaker in CR terms than Nycaloths are (1) fewer HP, and (2) lower DPR; but I'm not all that convinced that they are weaker in fact. E.g. is a DC 13 Con save-or-go-unconscious bite really weaker than two attacks for 18 damage each? Depends what you're fighting. In some ways Couatls look like they were created by a DM who was gaming the system to make the most powerful CR 4 creature possible.

[Segev]

It is worth noting that nothing in the actual spell text implies that the DM is supposed to choose the creatures called forth by the "conjure X" spells. All arguments that they do would logically mean that the DM is also supposed to choose what, exactly, fabricate creates, as all the spell allows the caster to choose (by the same logical reading) is the material from which the products are made.

It has been stated, apparently, by Mr. Crawford that he intended the DM to choose, not the caster, so if you like RAI or feel that the DM making the choice makes the spell better for your games, it's a house rule that you can impose with the blessing of the lead dev, though. But don't make the mistake of thinking that the RAW explicitly or even implicitly state it, or you risk creating a massive logical headache as you attempt to apply the same logic to other spells.

[MaxWilson]

It is worth noting that nothing in the actual spell text implies that the DM is supposed to choose the creatures called forth by the "conjure X" spells. All arguments that they do would logically mean that the DM is also supposed to choose what, exactly, fabricate creates, as all the spell allows the caster to choose (by the same logical reading) is the material from which the products are made.

And yet, somehow, there are those of us who picked up on that fact from reading the spell text initially. I guess I must be psychic, hooray!

:-P

I think it was easier for grognards to understand the intent, since that's how conjuration spells always worked in AD&D. But the wording in Conjure Elemental was a big fat clue-stick too.

[RulesJD]

Best Minonmancer:

1. Wizard Necromancer 14/Lore Bard 6

Necro for obvious reasons

Lore Bard for access to Crusaders Mantle (hellooooooo +1d4 to almost all my minions damage) and Faerie Fire (helllooooooo advantage for them to hit) as cast from your Simulacrum. Also, Lore Bard for access to Song of Rest, which will help the Undead heal faster from short rests.

[Segev]

And yet, somehow, there are those of us who picked up on that fact from reading the spell text initially. I guess I must be psychic, hooray!

:-P

I think it was easier for grognards to understand the intent, since that's how conjuration spells always worked in AD&D. But the wording in Conjure Elemental was a big fat clue-stick too.

And yet, reading fabricate, you did not pick up on the same "intent?" Can you tell me the difference in wording?

I have played since 1e AD&D; don't know if that really qualifies me as a "grognard," since I didn't play when you had to color in your own dice, but...1e AD&D made it clear your summons were random by providing a random table on which to roll.

5e's spells provide no such table, give no indication that the choice is not the caster's.

I'll be happy to agree that it is discernible from the text if you can tell me why the language in conjure woodland beings providing a list of categories is any different than the language in fabricate saying that it makes products of the selected material. Neither says, explicitly, the caster chooses what the creatures/products are, so any logic that says the lack of specificity in conjure woodland beings means it's the DM's choice must also say that said lack in fabricate means the DM chooses what the products are. The caster may have WANTED a pair of woolen mittens, but instead he got a teddy bear.

[MaxWilson]

And yet, reading fabricate, you did not pick up on the same "intent?" Can you tell me the difference in wording?

Are you asking if I can teach you the process of linguistic inference? Not in one post I can't. I can point you to a couple of data points though that clue me in.

(1) The plain language of the English word "Fabricate". Fabrication is about making stuff that wasn't there before, which implies control over what you are making, and the spell text backs this up: "You convert raw materials into products of the same material. For example, you can fabricate a wooden bridge from a clump of trees, a rope from a patch of hemp, and clothes from flax or wool... You also can’t use it to create items that ordinarily require a high degree of craftsmanship, such as jewelry, weapons, glass, or armor, unless you have proficiency with the type of artisan’s tools used to craft such objects." If your tool proficiencies are in use, it's clear that Fabricate is an active process which uses your skills to direct the output. "Conjuration" on the other hand implies the opposite: tapping into things that are already there, drawing them to you. Nobody, I think, would claim that a magician who conjures a rabbit out of a hat necessarily gets to decide if it's male or female; if he can do that on top of the conjuration, it would be considered an extra-impressive trick, and he would mention it in part of his spiel.

(2) Precedent from higher-level spells. Conjure Elemental is a higher-level spell which offers you some rough control over what is summoned, because you get to choose the area you cast it on, and that affects the type of elemental which shows up. Since higher-level spells are generally better than lower-level spells, this is a strike against the idea of the lower-level spell allowing you fine control; either Conjure Minor Elementals should work similarly to Conjure Elemental (with elementals showing up based on choice of CR and the general environment you cast it in), or it should be completely and totally arbitrary.

3) Wording in the spell that defers explicitly to the DM for further details.

Imagine if Fabricate were called Mechanical Transmutation and had the description, "You convert raw materials into manufactured products of the same material. Choose raw materials that you can see within range, and a technology level. [Table follows listing volumes and technology levels.] The raw materials transform into manufactured goods of the desired technology level. Your DM will supply statistics for the items." Just like Conjure Minor Elementals/Animals/etc., that spell description is not explicit that the caster cannot choose the goods produced; from that perspective Mechanical Transmutation is poorly-written, like a lot of WotC text. But even though Fabricate and Mechanical Transmutation are both equally open to Internet arguments about whether or not the caster gets to choose what is produced, since neither of them explicitly says outright "the DM will choose what appears," it's clear from reading the spells that one of them is intended to produce what the caster wants and the other is probably circumstantial or even random in its outputs.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Do note that you can totally ask your DM for an AD&D-style table. The spell does not in any way rule that out, and neither does Sage Advice; it just declines to supply a built-in table, which makes perfect sense because how could it know what monsters are appropriate at your DM's table?

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Best Minonmancer:

1. Wizard Necromancer 14/Lore Bard 6

Necro for obvious reasons

Lore Bard for access to Crusaders Mantle (hellooooooo +1d4 to almost all my minions damage) and Faerie Fire (helllooooooo advantage for them to hit) as cast from your Simulacrum. Also, Lore Bard for access to Song of Rest, which will help the Undead heal faster from short rests.

Skip the Faerie Fire. Just use Conjure Animals (from Magical Secrets) to conjure up a bunch of constrictor snakes. Constrictor snakes restrain anything they hit, which grants advantage AND does damage AND requires actions to get out of.

You can also have your skeletons toss nets, which do the same thing.

[Segev]

I'm not asking for a lesson in inference. I'm asking you to point out what in the text differentiates "products made from the material" from "creatures in these numbers of this CR" such that the former is "obviously" the choice of the caster, while the latter is "obviously" the choice of the DM.

That you can ask your DM for an AD&D style random table is irrelevant. You could do the same for fabricate, and it would be equally within the RAW.

"The DM has the stats" doesn't in any way mean, imply, nor even suggest "the DM will choose which stats to use." It says that the DM has the stats. The implication - the sole implication - is that the stats are not in the PHB, but rather are in some reference material the DM is expected to have.

Nothing in "the stats for these creatures are in a reference your DM has" implies the DM chooses which creature.


I get that some people made assumptions, for some reason, that it does. I didn't. I made the assumption that the language is used consistently throughout the PHB, so without something indicating the choice was out of the caster's hands, the limits were on what the caster may choose, only. To assume otherwise requires either changing your assumption for no apparent reason between various spells, or assuming that fabricate allows the caster to choose the material, and the DM is limited in what the resulting product is only by that material and the caster's proficiencies. But that the product is the DM's choice, not the caster's.

[RulesJD]

*snip*

Skip the Faerie Fire. Just use Conjure Animals (from Magical Secrets) to conjure up a bunch of constrictor snakes. Constrictor snakes restrain anything they hit, which grants advantage AND does damage AND requires actions to get out of.

You can also have your skeletons toss nets, which do the same thing.

Wouldn't rely on the Conjure Animals mostly out of table management deference. I'm already going to have a massive advantage in table economy, having that many more 'things' just wouldn't be very much fun for the other players. But I agree, great way to provide advantage that I hadn't thought of and from a power gamer's perspective is better than faerie fire. Higher level spell slot of course so Faerie Fire does have the benefit of providing something to do with your low level slots as a minionmancer.

Yeah, I'm definitely stealing that idea. That's actually pretty genius and I can't believe noone's recommended it yet. My only concern would be that it is technically a Martial Weapon and it isn't clear that Zombie/Skeletons are proficient in Martial Weapons, or really any other weapons besides Short Bow/Short Sword.

[Vogonjeltz]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/704486578622636032

The player is only given the choice of selecting a package of a # of creatures at a given CR.

As the game is run, any decisions that the player is not granted the authority to make default to the DM as they are the person who actually runs the game. In the case of virtually all (but not all) the conjure X spells the player is selecting a package to be filled out by the DM.

[Naanomi]

Necromancer/Warlocks can pump out massive armies by taking short rests over and over to refresh Animate Dead. Not as durable as a pure Necromancer, but much bigger skeleton-army

[MaxWilson]

Wouldn't rely on the Conjure Animals mostly out of table management deference. I'm already going to have a massive advantage in table economy, having that many more 'things' just wouldn't be very much fun for the other players. But I agree, great way to provide advantage that I hadn't thought of and from a power gamer's perspective is better than faerie fire. Higher level spell slot of course so Faerie Fire does have the benefit of providing something to do with your low level slots as a minionmancer.

Yeah, I'm definitely stealing that idea. That's actually pretty genius and I can't believe noone's recommended it yet. My only concern would be that it is technically a Martial Weapon and it isn't clear that Zombie/Skeletons are proficient in Martial Weapons, or really any other weapons besides Short Bow/Short Sword.

That's true. If your DM rules that they aren't proficient, consider having them throw nets anyway. Losing out on +2 proficiency bonus is painful against high ACs but might still be worth it, against some enemies. Also try to have your skeletons/zombies Help the net wielders to counteract disadvantage. (Stinking Cloud also cancels out the disadvantage and goes well with poison immunity on skeletons; Stinking Cloud prevents enemies from removing the nets and the nets prevent enemies from walking out of the Stinking Cloud. Win/win.)

[MaxWilson]

I'm not asking for a lesson in inference. I'm asking you to point out what in the text differentiates "products made from the material" from "creatures in these numbers of this CR" such that the former is "obviously" the choice of the caster, while the latter is "obviously" the choice of the DM.

Didn't I just explain this? I'm not relying solely on the two phrases you're picking on, I'm relying on the whole title + text of the Fabricate spell vs. the whole text + context of the various Conjure X spells.

Since I was, in fact, correct, I must be doing something right. You can choose to claim that it was "impossible" to guess the correct meaning but I am afraid I have to disagree.

[RulesJD]

That's true. If your DM rules that they aren't proficient, consider having them throw nets anyway. Losing out on +2 proficiency bonus is painful against high ACs but might still be worth it, against some enemies. Also try to have your skeletons/zombies Help the net wielders to counteract disadvantage. (Stinking Cloud also cancels out the disadvantage and goes well with poison immunity on skeletons; Stinking Cloud prevents enemies from removing the nets and the nets prevent enemies from walking out of the Stinking Cloud. Win/win.)

Lost me here. Why would they have disadvantage to use nets? They just wouldn't add proficiency bonus.

And why would Stinking Cloud prevent enemies from removing the nets?

[MaxWilson]

Lost me here. Why would they have disadvantage to use nets? They just wouldn't add proficiency bonus.

And why would Stinking Cloud prevent enemies from removing the nets?

The problem with Nets is that they are a ranged weapon with a 5'/15' range. Since ranged weapons operate at disadvantage whenever there is a non-incapacitated enemy within 5', this means that if you're at 5' range or less from the enemy, you take disadvantage for having an enemy in your face, and if you're at 6'-15' range you take disadvantage for being at long range, and if you're beyond 15' you can't throw the net at all.

If you're in heavy obscurement like Stinking Cloud, you get offsetting advantage because the target can't see the attacker, and disadvantage (which doesn't matter, because disadvantage is binary) because the attacker can't see the target, yielding no advantage/disadvantage. Net win.

Stinking Cloud prevents the enemy from removing the nets, if the enemy fails the Con save, because that's what Stinking Cloud does: prevents the enemy from getting an action that turn, only a move. Normally that means that the enemy can just exit the Stinking Cloud (lame!) but if the enemy is in fact restrained by the net, that isn't an option (restrained => speed 0). In order to break free they have to succeed on their Con save against Stinking Cloud AND beat the net DC/hack it apart with a slashing weapon AND break the grapple of any zombies that are grappling them AND spend half movement to get up from being prone if a zombie pushed them prone. That's a lot of stuff to have to do all in a single turn. Meanwhile all your skeleton archers are shooting them full of holes from outside the cloud.

And even if they do all that, they still take opportunity attacks (at advantage) from any tremorsense/blindsense-equipped minions you have within the cloud, such as Planar Bound earth elementals or a Druid's/Lore Bard's conjured king cobras (giant poisonous snakes) or Animated Objects. Although I don't think Animated Objects or cobras are poison-immune, so there's that.

[Zalabim]

The purpose of Geas is mostly for the Charm effect, so you have more influence with them AND they can't attack you. Then Mass Suggestion on top of that is the basis of your actual control.

Good idea. I was thinking about calculating the maximum number of minions at a time, and each additional spell used for control reduces the maximum amount you can control.


So much this.

Couatls aren't that much weaker than fiends BTW. They're outright immune to normal weapons, have AC 24 when Shielding, and have a bunch of spells and truesight and polymorph capabilities. The main things that make them weaker in CR terms than Nycaloths are (1) fewer HP, and (2) lower DPR; but I'm not all that convinced that they are weaker in fact. E.g. is a DC 13 Con save-or-go-unconscious bite really weaker than two attacks for 18 damage each? Depends what you're fighting. In some ways Couatls look like they were created by a DM who was gaming the system to make the most powerful CR 4 creature possible.

I actually meant that producing an army of Couatls isn't likely to stop someone using an army of Nycoloths (which have magic weapons) or Glabrezu (still have at-will dispel magic), plus the Couatls are about as hard to Bind as the fiends. For the poison, unconsciousness costs one creature an action to end, and affords the Couatl an average of 7 extra damage if it uses Constrict to take advantage of it. Oddly, an action can wake the creature but taking damage would not. I think they'd be put to much better use as an army of healers using their spells, though any of the three outsiders could make a good showing of terrorizing the land.


And even if they do all that, they still take opportunity attacks (at advantage) from any tremorsense/blindsense-equipped minions you have within the cloud, such as Planar Bound earth elementals or a Druid's/Lore Bard's conjured king cobras (giant poisonous snakes) or Animated Objects. Although I don't think Animated Objects or cobras are poison-immune, so there's that.

There is that, but Stinking Cloud only takes up an action, so they could still use their Reaction later in the round.

[Elbacone]

Somehow everytime I see the necromancer thread of casting large swaths of minions I get the mental picture of the wizard getting out his dustpan and bag of holding to clean up after the battle. Later that evening he is rolling medicine to sort out every bone and casting mending to put his skeletons back together.. :p

[Segev]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/704486578622636032

The player is only given the choice of selecting a package of a # of creatures at a given CR.

As the game is run, any decisions that the player is not granted the authority to make default to the DM as they are the person who actually runs the game. In the case of virtually all (but not all) the conjure X spells the player is selecting a package to be filled out by the DM.
I never said Mr. Crawford hadn't indicated what he intended in a separate document. I said what he wrote in the PHB requires using two different, un-indicated assumptions on two different spells that use similar wording to get the two different results they apparently are intended to have.

Didn't I just explain this? I'm not relying solely on the two phrases you're picking on, I'm relying on the whole title + text of the Fabricate spell vs. the whole text + context of the various Conjure X spells.

Since I was, in fact, correct, I must be doing something right. You can choose to claim that it was "impossible" to guess the correct meaning but I am afraid I have to disagree.Of course it's not impossible to guess. It is, however, impossible to tell without guessing. That you guessed correctly doesn't indicate that you're some sort of superior rational human being; it indicates your assumptions were more in line with Mr. Crawford's, despite them being unstated and inconsistent.

Even reading all of fabricate, nothing in it indicates that the caster gets to choose, only that whatever products there are can be of the sorts listed, and are restricted by the caster's proficiencies. Therefore, since it just says that the caster can choose the material, it clearly means that the DM is the one who decides what the products are. The DM is restricted by having to use the materials selected and by the caster's proficiencies.

That the assumption made here to do it "correctly" (though obviously, since Mr. Crawford hasn't weighed in on fabricate, perhaps it WAS his intention that the DM choose the final products) and have the caster choose the products is the opposite assumption made for conjure woodland beings, it is inconsistent writing.

I'm not even getting into whether or not "DM chooses what you conjure" is good design. (It isn't, just as random rolls were bad design back in 1e. But that's really, REALLY a different thread's discussion.)

[RulesJD]

The problem with Nets is that they are a ranged weapon with a 5'/15' range. Since ranged weapons operate at disadvantage whenever there is a non-incapacitated enemy within 5', this means that if you're at 5' range or less from the enemy, you take disadvantage for having an enemy in your face, and if you're at 6'-15' range you take disadvantage for being at long range, and if you're beyond 15' you can't throw the net at all.


*snip*

Huh, never seen that pointed out before. Honestly I'm about 99% positive it's just a rules oversight and clearly meant to be a regular attack from 5ft adjacent. But, that would only occur if it's a melee capable Thrown weapon, and it's clearly listed under the Martial Ranged Weapon category. Honestly, someone probably needs to tweet Jeremy Crawford to get him to clear that up.

[Vogonjeltz]

I never said Mr. Crawford hadn't indicated what he intended in a separate document. I said what he wrote in the PHB requires using two different, un-indicated assumptions on two different spells that use similar wording to get the two different results they apparently are intended to have.

Well, for starters all spell language is written in the permission granting format with limitations where the permission given might have otherwise extended.

So, Conjure Minor Elementals explains that the player (caster) chooses one of the following options for what appears. That's the extent of their input, choosing the option.

With no further input permitted, the result necessarily is fulfilled by the DM.

Fabricate on the other hand both gives examples of things a caster can do with the spell, it also specifies the caster chooses the raw materials and then chooses what it fabricates into: "You can fabricate a Large or smaller object". The creation of objects (generic) is necessarily an open ended option that's been given to the caster.

What Fabricate isn't saying (and I would argue would limit it similarly to Conjure X spells) is: Select raw materials within range and choose from the following options to determine what is fabricated: Large or smaller size, crafted or not for proficiency application.

That language would limit the outcome to DM choice. Which would render Fabricate much less useful and probably justify knocking it down to a 1st or 2nd level spell.