Expected Wealth By Level

[Firechanter]

Yeah yeah I know, there is no WBL table in 5E... but wait, maybe there is?

How do I put this concisely? My idea was, one might take the default values given in the DMG, and simulate the probabilities of various drops. I.e., DMG p.133 tells us how many hoards might be found during a "typical" campaign per tier of play; the following pages tell us that each hoard roll has that-and-that probability of dropping items of certain categories and rarities, and so on.
(Of course this says nothing about custom treasure seeded by the DM)

But, before I even start doing that, I wanted to ask around if anybody has already done so. Hence this thread. :)

[Saffron-sama]

Yeah yeah I know, there is no WBL table in 5E... but wait, maybe there is?

How do I put this concisely? My idea was, one might take the default values given in the DMG, and simulate the probabilities of various drops. I.e., DMG p.133 tells us how many hoards might be found during a "typical" campaign per tier of play; the following pages tell us that each hoard roll has that-and-that probability of dropping items of certain categories and rarities, and so on.
(Of course this says nothing about custom treasure seeded by the DM)

But, before I even start doing that, I wanted to ask around if anybody has already done so. Hence this thread. :)

I am not sure if anyone has done this or if you are doing this to figure out what a player should have at later levels. So if it is for how much they get at starting at higher level I wanted to tell you there is a Starting equipment at higher level table on page 38 of the DMG just so you don't waste time.

[Slipperychicken]

I have enough stats knowledge to compute the expected values for treasure rolls without much trouble (from there you just multiply them by how many times you roll on each table), but I wonder if we can't do a little better. Perhaps with computer simulations we could make intervals for each level and be able to say "given the assumptions we made, PC wealth around this interval is normal for this level".


I am not sure if anyone has done this or if you are doing this to figure out what a player should have at later levels. So if it is for how much they get at starting at higher level I wanted to tell you there is a Starting equipment at higher level table on page 38 of the DMG just so you don't waste time.

The starting equipment table isn't necessarily reflective of how many magic items or gold pieces players would actually get though. I don't even know how they came up with the numbers there.

[Firechanter]

In fact, that p.38 table is utterly useless. A level 10 character in a HIGH magic campaign would get all _one_ _uncommon_ item. Mid-magic not even that. That is in no way reflective of the loot dropping if you just roll on the treasure hoard tables the "suggested" number of times (and divide by four, of course).

So, I think that such a table might be useful for DMs to see if their party is equipped well enough... or maybe a bit too poorly or too well... Anyway, should I ever DM a game I'd like to have some guidance there.

For instance, when I look at our current game and our party's equipment:
Our very first magic weapon was a Club +1, found at level 3 if memory serves, and which our Dwarf Barbarian used as main weapon until almost level 8. We called it the Riot Stick.
My GWF Pala was unable to make use of his GWM feat for about the same timespan (lv 4-7), because the only other magic weapon that we'd found during that time was a Battleaxe +1, and most enemies we fought were resistant to nonmagical damage. Then finally I was able to loot a +1 Greataxe off a Yuggoloth -- still not the ideal weapon, but much better than before. The rest of the party also split lesser items like a Mace of Warning and a Wand of MM and stuff like that during this level interval.

Then suddenly, at level 8, we hit the mother lode. A treasure hoard -- actually the entire gear of an NPC party murdered by the BBEG -- with both "DM's choice" and random items. Some of the random drops were even better than most scripted ones. Now we all have excellent gear, and it might actually be a bit much. Well, not that I'm complaining about our newfound wealth; I just would have preferred the increase to be more gradual over the levels.

[Mcdt2]

It's been done before, yeah. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?395770-Analysis-of-quot-Typical-quot-Magic-Item-Distribution)

[Firechanter]

It's been done before, yeah. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?395770-Analysis-of-quot-Typical-quot-Magic-Item-Distribution)

That's what I hoped! Excellent, pretty much exactly what I was looking for. ^^

[Slipperychicken]

It's been done before, yeah. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?395770-Analysis-of-quot-Typical-quot-Magic-Item-Distribution)

Did anyone do this for nonmagical treasure based on the hoard rolls? I already did it for hoards 0-4 and 5-10 by the time this was posted.

[Officer Joy]

It's been done before, yeah. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?395770-Analysis-of-quot-Typical-quot-Magic-Item-Distribution)

Darnit, why didn't anyone link that when I asked for it.

According to that I've been handing out too much magic Stuff.
I guess we're playing a relative high magic game then,
because it would be pretty rude to take their stuff away now,
and not give out anything for the next few lvls will probably be frustrating for the players.

[Firechanter]

Well, this is just about treasure hoards. It says nothing about gear pried out of your enemies' cold dead hands. Gear that has been actively used against the PCs. Like that Yuggoloth's +1 Greataxe that my Paladin snatched from it before the body even hit the ground, after embedding his battleaxe firmly in its skull. XD

[Flashy]

According to that I've been handing out too much magic Stuff.
I guess we're playing a relative high magic game then

Eh, the game's math is agnostic enough about the level of magic item use that you'll probably be fine. As long as you haven't been giving everyone +3 weapons of extreme damage it's really not going to impact much. For the most part 5e truly doesn't care how magical your campaign is, but things do start getting sort of wonky if you're stacking the player attack roll modifiers into the stratosphere.

[Firechanter]

Also, some items are poorly thought out and should probably never see your game. Such as any that set an Ability score to a fixed value, because they break the asi/feat economy. These items come from a time and edition when stats were rolled up and never changed after level 1, and there they were fine, but they should also stay there.
They probably reverted to these items out of nostalgia, but that was an extremely poor design decision - one that we quickly houseruled away.

[Regitnui]

I'm not that skilled a DM, so I actually like the fact that there's no WBL expectations in 5e. It releives the pressure of making sure every person in the party is properly equipped, and therefore also removes the Magic Market Problem from older editions. Now every item you hand our is special, not a required part of the game.

[Firechanter]

Well tbh, rolling up a plain +1 weapon does not feel all that special to me. Particularly considering that many, many monsters from pretty early levels on have resistance vs nonmagical damage, and so a magic weapon of some kind is basically required for everyone who uses physical attacks. And let me tell you it sucks balls if you have invested in a feat and can't use it because you can't get your hands on a suitable weapon. Those are the bare necessities.

Also, we noticed that rolling up certain items may result in the need of more items for other characters. For instance, we rolled up some +1 shields very early on. We also have a Bladesinger who natively has a very high AC. And a GWF Paladin (me) who has a rather low AC despite wearing Plate. Eventually, the AC spread just among our frontliners had become so high (18-27 roughly) that the DM had to realize: if I use monsters that have a chance of hitting the Bladesinger, they will almost auto-hit the Paladin. So eventually, he seeded a +1 Full Plate and an Animated Shield -- although he hates these items -- specifically for my Paladin so that our AC would be more uniform.
[When we first found the shield, our Dwarf Barb tried to attune it, but the DM went "It's a Netherese shield. It won't accept any other wielder than a human." -- that's when it became clear that he intended that item specifically for my character. FWIW, we use the "old" version that is animated all the time and doesn't eat your bonus actions -- it doesn't even have straps to hold it.]

However, I do appreciate that 5E does away with those "item builds" that we know from 3.X. Anyone who cares for optimization at all in 3.X will have their gear progression mapped out from start to end. That's playable but it doesn't really feel fantastic in the original sense of the word.

[Regitnui]

However, I do appreciate that 5E does away with those "item builds" that we know from 3.X. Anyone who cares for optimization at all in 3.X will have their gear progression mapped out from start to end. That's playable but it doesn't really feel fantastic in the original sense of the word.

That's the primary reason. Also, of course a +1 weapon doesn't feel that special. However, stealing the salamander general's flame tongue, pulling a belt of giant's strength from the statue guarding a forgotten king's tomb, and being given a decanter of endless water by the merfolk chief you helped lead to victory are all better than "I need a *3 sword, +4 chain armour and an ioun stone before level 10. Make it so, DM"

[Coffee_Dragon]

There's still the occasional spot of item building in 5E. If I know my mid-level sorcerer can start with bracers of defencitude, I don't need to waste an all-too-valuable slot on Mage Armor.

[Regitnui]

There's still the occasional spot of item building in 5E. If I know my mid-level sorcerer can start with bracers of defencitude, I don't need to waste an all-too-valuable slot on Mage Armor.

Well, that can also be done retroactively... Finding "bracers of defencitude" means you forget mage armour next time you can replace spells.

[JackPhoenix]

Eh, the game's math is agnostic enough about the level of magic item use that you'll probably be fine. As long as you haven't been giving everyone +3 weapons of extreme damage it's really not going to impact much. For the most part 5e truly doesn't care how magical your campaign is, but things do start getting sort of wonky if you're stacking the player attack roll modifiers into the stratosphere.

Actually, attack isn't that much of a problem...defences are. Higher AC have much heavier impact on bounded accuracy than attack (it also doesn't help you can stack AC better...armor, shield, cloak, buffs...)