Do ex clerics disqualify prestige classes?

[RoboEmperor]

Lets say a prestige class requires the ability to cast divine spells.

And then for some reason you are an ex-cleric, because you violated something.

Do you lose all benefits of the prestige class because you can no longer cast divine spells?

[torrasque666]

Hotly and never ending debated topic. Some say yes, some say no.

[digiman619]

I'd argue that you'd retain the non-casting class features, in the same way you don't lose a feat if you stop having its prerequisites temporarily. In the same way you'd lose Combat Expertise because age penalties dropped your Dex to 12, but you can use it if someone casts cat's grace on you.

[weckar]

That argument is paradoxical. By your logic you'd only be able to use the class features if you regained casting somehow. The casting is (often) a prerequisite for the whole PrC, not just the casting progression.

[HammeredWharf]

I think it's pretty clear-cut that by RAW, if a PRC requires divine casting and you lose your divine casting, you lose the PRC's features. I some cases, it makes sense, but in other it doesn't and IMO it would be a good idea to show some leniency there. For example, if a Mystic Theurge lost their divine casting, I'd let them keep the arcane side.

[weckar]

That's your personal opinion though, and this felt very much like a RAW question to me. I'd like avoid confusion :smallsmile:

EDIT: sorry, I thought you were the same poster :smallfrown: [All Dwarves look alike yada yada yada]

[RoboEmperor]

Alright, thanks, Dweomerkeeper is out then.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Alright, thanks, Dweomerkeeper is out then.

You can always atone. Wouldn't the clerics most likely to enter dweomerkeeper be mystaran or boccob-worshipping clerics? Their tenets of faith aren't exactly hard to follow, especially boccob's.

[Troacctid]

Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior say that you lose a prestige class's class features if you lose the prerequisites. To my knowledge, no other source contradicts this.

A lot of people dislike this rule because it has a tendency to cause dysfunctions when applied to prestige classes in other books. Ur-Priest is a good example, requiring you to have no divine spellcasting, but then granting you divine spellcasting, thus immediately disqualifying you. Similarly, Dragon Disciple requires you to be a nondragon, but its capstone ability changes you into a dragon. But hey, what can you do, the rules are the rules.

[digiman619]

EDIT: sorry, I thought you were the same poster :smallfrown: [All Dwarves look alike yada yada yada]

Dwarfist! :smalltongue:

[RoboEmperor]

You can always atone. Wouldn't the clerics most likely to enter dweomerkeeper be mystaran or boccob-worshipping clerics? Their tenets of faith aren't exactly hard to follow, especially boccob's.

it's about freedom man. Ain't no one gonna tell my character what to do. I hate forgotten realms, forcing deity worship.


Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior say that you lose a prestige class's class features if you lose the prerequisites. To my knowledge, no other source contradicts this.

A lot of people dislike this rule because it has a tendency to cause dysfunctions when applied to prestige classes in other books. Ur-Priest is a good example, requiring you to have no divine spellcasting, but then granting you divine spellcasting, thus immediately disqualifying you. Similarly, Dragon Disciple requires you to be a nondragon, but its capstone ability changes you into a dragon. But hey, what can you do, the rules are the rules.

lol

[Forrestfire]

Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior say that you lose a prestige class's class features if you lose the prerequisites. To my knowledge, no other source contradicts this.

A lot of people dislike this rule because it has a tendency to cause dysfunctions when applied to prestige classes in other books. Ur-Priest is a good example, requiring you to have no divine spellcasting, but then granting you divine spellcasting, thus immediately disqualifying you. Similarly, Dragon Disciple requires you to be a nondragon, but its capstone ability changes you into a dragon. But hey, what can you do, the rules are the rules.

Those books don't actually have the authority to assert a global rule over prestige classes. The Dungeon Master's Guide states that you only need the prerequisites to take the first level of a prestige class. The rules in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior inarguably apply to the prestige classes contained within their books, but there would need to be a note in the DMG errata in order to establish them as primary source rules for prestige classes.

As you said, the rules are the rules:


When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

[RoboEmperor]

As you said, the rules are the rules:

Holy ****, where is that quote from? That is a very strong case that losing prerequisites for a prestige class does not render it useless. Dweomerkeeper is back on the table!

[Necroticplague]

Those books don't actually have the authority to assert a global rule over prestige classes. The Dungeon Master's Guide states that you only need the prerequisites to take the first level of a prestige class. The rules in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior inarguably apply to the prestige classes contained within their books, but there would need to be a note in the DMG errata in order to establish them as primary source rules for prestige classes.

As you said, the rules are the rules:

Yeah, let's read your quoted segment a little more closely:


When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.
Bolded for emphasis. This primary vs. secondary would only come up if the rules contradicted each other. However, there's no contradiction, because the DMG is completely silent as to what happens if you no longer qualify for a prestige class.
"you need to qualify when you take the first level" doesn't contradict "you need to qualify constantly", because it lacks anything specific like an "only" or similar.

[RoboEmperor]

"you need to qualify when you take the first level" doesn't contradict "you need to qualify constantly", because it lacks anything specific like an "only" or similar.

I think this part is wrong. Proof is the examples provided by Troacctid. Unless those prestige classes specifically say (in ur-priests case, divine spellcasting granted by this prestige class does not disqualify you from the class features of this PrC), I think those rules about losing features stay within their books.

[Necroticplague]

I think this part is wrong. Proof is the examples provided by Troacctid. Unless those prestige classes specifically say (in ur-priests case, divine spellcasting granted by this prestige class does not disqualify you from the class features of this PrC), I think those rules about losing features stay within their books.

That just means the PRC was written by someone unaware of the rules. Not a horrifically uncommon thing to have occur, thanks to DnD being written by about 3-dozen different people who seemed to not talk too much and have differing ideas of how things should be. Or, you know, the fact the two common examples were written before that rule was made.
That doesn't prove the general idea is wrong though. If there any situation under which "you need to constantly qualify" doesn't also include "you need to qualify when you get your first level"? If not, then that makes the latter a subset of the former, which is inherently non-contradictory (i.e, anything that is an element of the latter will also be an element of the former).

[Inevitability]

it's about freedom man. Ain't no one gonna tell my character what to do. I hate forgotten realms, forcing deity worship.

If you can spare a feat, take Heretic of the Faith. You can have an alignment two steps from your deity's and still keep your powers (NE/LN/CN cleric of Mystra), and you can grossly violate your deity's code of conduct.

The only downside is that you condemn yourself to slowly wasting away in a magic wall filled with the souls of heretics, but as a high-level caster finding a way around that should be trivial.

[Kelb_Panthera]

it's about freedom man. Ain't no one gonna tell my character what to do. I hate forgotten realms, forcing deity worship.

You realize that worship of Boccob is enforced by literally no one, not even Boccob himself. Boccob the uncaring. The limits on what you can do as one of his faithful are basicallly, don't destroy or hide-away magic so that no one else can use it. That's seriously pretty much it. Seeking and spreading knowledge in general and knowledge of magic in particular are encouraged but not required. He even smiles on being sly with your magic.

Unless you're insistent on being a secretive power-monger I don't see the obstruction to any normal PC desires. There's also Vecna if you do want to go that route.

[RoboEmperor]

Unless you're insistent on being a secretive power-monger

Mr.Detective deduced the answer!

Anyways, I believe you can't worship a greyhawk deity in forgotten realms. Is this correct?

[Segev]

Honestly, I think each case should be adjudicated by the DM, simply because the "meaning" of a prerequisite is so different and the execution and fluff behind the PrC is possible to vary as finely as from character to character. Do what's interesting without being unbalanced in your game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Mr.Detective deduced the answer!

Anyways, I believe you can't worship a greyhawk deity in forgotten realms. Is this correct?

Ah. Didn't realize that this was a FR character.

How do you feel about undead? Velsharoon might be a good fit. NE deity who's church was just founded and is largely unstructured. Fling a few undead at the world after studying them a bit and you'll keep in his grace.

[RoboEmperor]

How do you feel about undead? Velsharoon might be a good fit. NE deity who's church was just founded and is largely unstructured. Fling a few undead at the world after studying them a bit and you'll keep in his grace.

Yeah see, I gotta serve him. I have nothing against undead except the fact that it's a pain to find corpses you want, but yeah, thanks for the suggestions. Even a tiny, miniscule mandatory service bothers the hell out of me, why I go arcane casters. It's fine, dweomerkeeper just gave me access to free limited wishes, and free wishes but there are lots of other ways to get that. Generally if I do want free wishes I go shapechange or just use wish legitly once create a scroll of simulacrum/iceassassin of a guy with wish.

[rrwoods]

"Do I lose my class features when I lose prerequisites" has been hotly debated many times. As has been pointed out, it depends on your interpretation of the primary source rule.

Warning: Oftentimes, people on both sides of this argument will adamantly insist that they are the ones that are right and the other side is foolish. What's foolish here is to think that the issue is at all clear. Know that it's possible to rule either way and be true to RAW. Ask your DM.

[Keltest]

Yeah see, I gotta serve him. I have nothing against undead except the fact that it's a pain to find corpses you want, but yeah, thanks for the suggestions. Even a tiny, miniscule mandatory service bothers the hell out of me, why I go arcane casters. It's fine, dweomerkeeper just gave me access to free limited wishes, and free wishes but there are lots of other ways to get that. Generally if I do want free wishes I go shapechange or just use wish legitly once create a scroll of simulacrum/iceassassin of a guy with wish.

I think you might be overestimating the amount of active direction the gods demand of their followers. As a rule of thumb, FR has enough gods that you can find one who's creed you would be following anyway, and as long as you don't go attracting too much of their attention, they'll let you go and do your own thing, whatever that is, because that's what they want you to do.

Unless you pick an evil god, in which case they might enslave you just because you hate it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah see, I gotta serve him. I have nothing against undead except the fact that it's a pain to find corpses you want, but yeah, thanks for the suggestions. Even a tiny, miniscule mandatory service bothers the hell out of me, why I go arcane casters. It's fine, dweomerkeeper just gave me access to free limited wishes, and free wishes but there are lots of other ways to get that. Generally if I do want free wishes I go shapechange or just use wish legitly once create a scroll of simulacrum/iceassassin of a guy with wish.

As long as you're following the tenets of the faith, you -are- serving him. You don't have to do it in an active, take and follow orders kind of way. The most you'd likely be asked to do is open a cult-cell to his worship, maybe use a calling spell to let one of his agents into the mortal realm. Also note, that's -asked- not ordered. Velsharoon's is not a grand chuch-structure with any real organization to it.

Like I said, you spoof up some undead, examine the magic that makes them work, record it in some books and papers and see too it that those books make it to others of the faith and you're good. No missions, no superiors to lord over you or underlings to manage, just promoting undeath and evil in a very loose sense gets you were you need to be for a one level dip.

Because the rules regarding prestige qualificaton loss and its effects are so muddied, it's up to individual DM's to make their calls and I, for one, would advise making that call on a case by case basis, both for whether or not you lose anything and how much you lose.

Dweomerkeeper: I'd strip the class features but not the spellcasting progression on the arcane side. YMMV.

[RoboEmperor]

Ok, I have done some research on the subject matter.

One one hand, the disqualification rules in complete arcane and warrior are there to combat temporary qualification shenanigans (psychic reformation I believe), and the FAQ answers questions based on that rule.

On the other hand, the DMG, the very first book in the game, violates the rule in complete arcane and warrior with dragon disciple. And a person could simply choose to not use those source books.

If I was a DM though, I would rule that the disqualification rules in CA and CW are global unless the prestige class themselves causes the disqualification, because fluff wise, it makes sense, and it stops those temporary qualification shenanigans.

[magicalmagicman]

How about Malconvoker sorcerers? If you swap out summon monster III, do you lose all the class features of malconvoker until you swap it back in?