List of free wishes?

[gogogome]

I got blindsighted by DweomerKeeper and my player got upset when I told him he couldn't Supernatural Spell wish.

In order to avoid this from happening again, I'd like a nice list of all the ways a player can get free wishes.

1. DweomerKeeper -> Supernatural Spell + Wish
2. Scroll of Ice Assassin or Simulacrum

Cast Wish to create a scroll of Ice Assassin or Simulacrum of a Wish Creature
Cast Gate to gate in a Wish Creature and make them repeat #1
Use a candle of invocation of a proper alignment to gate in a Wish Creature and make them repeat #1
Use Planar Binding line of spells to call a Wish Creature, then mind control them, and make them repeat #1


3. Shapechange into a Zodar.

List of Wish Creatures

Solar
Efreeti
Zodar
Pit Fiend
Glabrezu

[DrKerosene]

The only thing I'm aware of would be a level of Heirophant for the SLA feature, if your PC can get Wish to count as Divine.

Also, Glabrezu demon, 1/month Wish.

Maybe some kind of shenanigans with that Fiend of (Corruption or Blasphemy) ability to grant Wishes that normally cost XP.

[gogogome]

The only thing I'm aware of would be a level of Heirophant for the SLA feature, if your PC can get Wish to count as Divine.

How does Hierophant grant free wishes? It clearly says any spells with XP components still cost XP.

I couldn't find anything for fiend of blasphemy for granting wishes, but fiend of corruption still requires XP cost for wishes.

[gogogome]

So I take it this list is complete then?

[Fizban]

If you're going to allow "all sources," you're going to have a heck of a time making a list of *all* of anything. It'd be much easier to just institute a "no free wishes" rule. You are under no obligation to play lawyers and ledgers just so they can google up something you missed.

While you're at it you should probably look over some other chap-op favorites. Be prepared to ban Incantatrix, Planar Shepard, Master of Many Forms, and many more if neccesary. Shapechange and Gate calling themselves are circumspect, Ice Assassin shouldn't even exist, and Simulacrum would benefit from some simple limitation clauses (like: the simulacrum loses any magical abilities that it no longer has the caster level or hit dice for, including supernatural abilities not found on monsters of it's reduced strength).

This is all reactionary though, you shouldn't have to look up ban lists. Before starting the game the group needs to discuss what power level is going to be expected. No player has any business bringing a build to the table without the DM knowing what it does: if you're planning free wishes and you don't tell the DM, you're the one being disruptive. But if the DM says "all sources go nuts" then they forfeit that protection. So have a more nuanced discussion before getting into ban fights.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While you're at it you should probably look over some other chap-op favorites. Be prepared to ban Incantatrix, Planar Shepard, Master of Many Forms, and many more if neccesary. Shapechange and Gate calling themselves are circumspect, Ice Assassin shouldn't even exist, and Simulacrum would benefit from some simple limitation clauses (like: the simulacrum loses any magical abilities that it no longer has the caster level or hit dice for, including supernatural abilities not found on monsters of it's reduced strength).

While this is solid advice in the general sense, it's worth noting that none of those is, in itself, inherently game breaking, just extremely powerful.

Incantatrix is just powerful. You need to add some other tricks to break things.

Planar sheperd is fine except for the possibility of creating a planar bubble for a fast time plane or a custom demiplane and the enhanced wild-shape allowing access to powerful SLA's and SU's like wish. If you keep an eye on it, it's no big deal.

MoMF is fine. It provides a plethora of options at the cost of spellcasting unless it comes on a wildshape ranger or wildshape monk and then it's just a straight upgrade to a relatively weak class without even bringing it up to gish levels.

Shapechange is only an issue because zodar. It's othewise just a powerful option that's only slightly more game-breaking than its little brother polymorph. If you can handle polymorph, you can handle this. If you can't, you should've dealt with it 10 levels back.

Calling is a whole discussion on its own but suffice it to say that RAW can be read to be on the DM's side in every case short of gate and probably even then.

Ice assassin is only a problem if you ignore the material component. There are ways around that by RAW but houseruling that it can't be ignored is entirely reasonable. It and its little brother simulacrum are only as powerful as the creature being copied and the houserule above brings them both into a perfectly reasonable power level.

Like I said, I agree with you in principle. A good DM should be prepared to put a hard 'no' to anything he doesn't think he can handle. I just don't like to see options cut needlessly and there's very little that the game absolutely cannot handle, free wishes being the ur-example.

[Kraken]

1. Get yourself a scroll of wish. Or any other item that can cast wish, it doesn't matter much. You can even just prepare it in a spell slot.
2. Cast shapechange, turn into a nightmare, and use a nightmare's supernatural version of astral projection.
3. Have your astrally projected clone use up their wish supply. This does not use up the wish items or spell slots held by your real body.
4. Dismiss the astral projection, create another immediately, which will have a fresh batch of wishes.

Note that a sane DM will rule that the items created by astral projection will disappear with the body, it's a lot harder to rule the results of spell effects generated by the astral body disappear. Therefore anything you create with each astral body's wishes should be permanent. If you wish to add efficiency to the process, spend the first few times wishing for scrolls of wish.

[Fizban]

While this is solid advice in the general sense, it's worth noting that none of those is, in itself, inherently game breaking, just extremely powerful. . . I just don't like to see options cut needlessly and there's very little that the game absolutely cannot handle, free wishes being the ur-example.
Dweomerkeeper is also just fine on it's own, only becoming a problem when combined with the Wish and such. But since the player went for that combo and was upset at it being denied I'd naturally assume they'll just move on to the next combo, as you're aware many people will immediately suggest out of spite.

I believe we have a fundamental disagreement on what we mean by, "the game." While I will agree that "a game" can handle pretty much anything the group wants, "the game" in general does not handle any of those effects well* and they're all rather a bad idea unless you specifically want a game that ignores the limits most of the material is based on. Some people do of course, but I don't find it interesting.

*except maybe the nerfed Simulacrum, aside from no limits on minionmancy. As for Shapechange/Polymorph, if his player was trying to jump straight into Su Wishes I get the feeling they're starting higher than 7th. There's also the possibility that one might skip on Polymorph specifically because it doesn't have the Su stuff and not spring anything until Shapechange, so the unwary DM would have no warning.

My favorite use for Dweomerkeeper is just being able to Raise NPCs whenever I feel like it for free. Shapechange was put to serious use in Saph's campaign journal, off a scroll no less, allowing the sorcerer to grind down a boss solo after the rest of the party ran for it (also serving as an example of why I'd say even the "boring" uses are just too good). I like some of the plots you can pull with Simulacrum, but you're never gonna convince me allowing a 100% strength, 100% memory clone with Ice Assassin is in any way sane.

[magicalmagicman]

1. Get yourself a scroll of wish. Or any other item that can cast wish, it doesn't matter much. You can even just prepare it in a spell slot.
2. Cast shapechange, turn into a nightmare, and use a nightmare's supernatural version of astral projection.
3. Have your astrally projected clone use up their wish supply. This does not use up the wish items or spell slots held by your real body.
4. Dismiss the astral projection, create another immediately, which will have a fresh batch of wishes.

Note that a sane DM will rule that the items created by astral projection will disappear with the body, it's a lot harder to rule the results of spell effects generated by the astral body disappear. Therefore anything you create with each astral body's wishes should be permanent. If you wish to add efficiency to the process, spend the first few times wishing for scrolls of wish.

Or lesser planar bind the nightmare, do it 9 levels earlier.

[Zaq]

If you're going to allow "all sources," you're going to have a heck of a time making a list of *all* of anything. It'd be much easier to just institute a "no free wishes" rule. You are under no obligation to play lawyers and ledgers just so they can google up something you missed.

While you're at it you should probably look over some other chap-op favorites. Be prepared to ban Incantatrix, Planar Shepard, Master of Many Forms, and many more if neccesary. Shapechange and Gate calling themselves are circumspect, Ice Assassin shouldn't even exist, and Simulacrum would benefit from some simple limitation clauses (like: the simulacrum loses any magical abilities that it no longer has the caster level or hit dice for, including supernatural abilities not found on monsters of it's reduced strength).

This is all reactionary though, you shouldn't have to look up ban lists. Before starting the game the group needs to discuss what power level is going to be expected. No player has any business bringing a build to the table without the DM knowing what it does: if you're planning free wishes and you don't tell the DM, you're the one being disruptive. But if the DM says "all sources go nuts" then they forfeit that protection. So have a more nuanced discussion before getting into ban fights.

This, basically. When you're talking about actual rules for an actual game, if you want to ban a specific effect, it's far simpler to ban the effect itself ("no free Wish effects") than to try to ban all the possible sources of that effect ("no Zodars or Dweomerkeepers or Ice Assassins or . . ."). When you're creating general rules for an unknown audience, sure, go legalistic and do your best to let the rules hold up on their own, but when you're running a personal campaign with your friends, talk to them like they're human beings and just tell them what you don't want to see rather than trying to write rules text choking off the undesirable options.

Though to be straight up honest with you, if a player sees a list that's obviously intended to limit access to free Wishes and then tries to sneak in a free Wish on the grounds that their specific method wasn't individually blacklisted, you've got bigger problems than your list simply not being complete enough. The communication needs to be two-sided, of course. Both parties (GM and players) really should be up front with each other about what they're expecting from the game. In hardcore benefit-of-the-doubt mode, if a player doesn't connect the dots that a ban list is trying to ban a specific effect, it's conceivable (unlikely, but conceivable) that they could be acting in good faith by finding something not on the list, which is why it's good for the GM to say why stuff is banned. But yeah. A player who's going to try to weasel around a ban list isn't going to stop being a problem just because you expand the ban list. The problem is solvable, but that is not the way to solve it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Dweomerkeeper is also just fine on it's own, only becoming a problem when combined with the Wish and such. But since the player went for that combo and was upset at it being denied I'd naturally assume they'll just move on to the next combo, as you're aware many people will immediately suggest out of spite.

I was speaking in a broader sense than -just- the OP's table. A player having no appreciation for just how much a DM has to deal with and deliberately trying to break the game is a problem no ban-list can fix. That takes an OOC discussion and a willingness to follow the spirit of such bannings rather than the letter.


I believe we have a fundamental disagreement on what we mean by, "the game." While I will agree that "a game" can handle pretty much anything the group wants, "the game" in general does not handle any of those effects well* and they're all rather a bad idea unless you specifically want a game that ignores the limits most of the material is based on. Some people do of course, but I don't find it interesting.

When I refer to the game, I'm referring to the rules as written with exceedingly minimal houseruling. With very few exceptions there isn't anything in the RAW that can't be dealt with by referring to some other RAW option or making only the smallest of tweaks. For example; saying that wish can't make magic items without feeding the extra XP that's called for in the spell description into it, regardless of whether it's produced as a SLA or SU, eliminates 95% of its potential for abuse.

A game can only handle exactly as much as the DM knows how to handle.


*except maybe the nerfed Simulacrum, aside from no limits on minionmancy. As for Shapechange/Polymorph, if his player was trying to jump straight into Su Wishes I get the feeling they're starting higher than 7th. There's also the possibility that one might skip on Polymorph specifically because it doesn't have the Su stuff and not spring anything until Shapechange, so the unwary DM would have no warning.

I basically can't help being cognizant of the fact that these conversations, being on a public forum, will be seen by far more than just the handful of people that actually partake of the discussion. It is for those silent readers that I tend to speak broadly when people suggest going to the game with a knife to fix their problem, figuratively speaking.

As for the OP's specific situation, I see no reason to presume they're starting at 17+. People that work out builds ahead of time sometimes discuss those builds well ahead of special tricks coming online. If they -are- starting at high levels then the DM doesn't need to be making specific bans. He needs to be having a discussion about what high-level tactics and tricks he's willing and able to deal with. Simply saying, "there will be no free wishes and let's keep shapechanging shenannigans to a minimum," or something to that effect will go a -lot- farther toward preventing problems than any ban-list ever could.


My favorite use for Dweomerkeeper is just being able to Raise NPCs whenever I feel like it for free. Shapechange was put to serious use in Saph's campaign journal, off a scroll no less, allowing the sorcerer to grind down a boss solo after the rest of the party ran for it (also serving as an example of why I'd say even the "boring" uses are just too good). I like some of the plots you can pull with Simulacrum, but you're never gonna convince me allowing a 100% strength, 100% memory clone with Ice Assassin is in any way sane.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If one of the PC's is willing to pull an ice assassin out of his back pocket, don't be shy about sending one after him. For that matter, one up him with an aleax.

If he makes one of himself and travels with it, he has an enemy with him at all times, play that up. The IA is still an NPC after its creation, one with a burning desire to kill the original. If an IA of the caster is -ever- subject to a protecion from <alignment> effect it'll turn on its creator on the spot. It can also create other ice assassins if it's ever unattended and use them to act against its creators wishes.

Finally 20,000gp and 5,000xp is crazy expensive unless you're cheesing your way around the spell's components. It's not the spell itself but the options to eliminate this cost that are the real problem.

[Cosi]

I got blindsighted by DweomerKeeper and my player got upset when I told him he couldn't Supernatural Spell wish.

I personally consider it fair to be upset you can't do something you spend significant resources on, although if he's trying to do something genuinely stupid (i.e. The Wish), he probably should have at least mentioned it to you. If he's just trying to do spell emulation or whatever without paying XP, you should point out that he is (probably) a Cleric and has miracle for that if he wants.


In order to avoid this from happening again, I'd like a nice list of all the ways a player can get free wishes.

You have missed several. First, wish creatures:


List of Wish Creatures

Solar
Efreeti
Zodar
Pit Fiend
Glabrezu


Technically, this should have Noble Djinn (a variant of the Djinn that grants wishes). I don't believe the Dao or Marid grant wishes (IIRC, Dao have limited wish), but you should check.


2. Scroll of Ice Assassin or Simulacrum

Correct, but incomplete. Casting those spells works just as well. So does Improved Familiar (Mirror Mephit). Or lesser planar binding for a Mirror Mephit. Notably, summon monster for a Mirror Mephit does not work, as summoned creatures refuse to use abilities that cost XP as spells (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)). If you happen to know what plane Mirror Mephits come from, Planar Shepherd's Planar Wildshape will give you their SLA simulacrum.

A general note for simulacrum: You can't get wish out of a simulacra of an Efreet, as they have an explicit write-up in Savage Species which grants their wish SLA after 5HD (which they have as a simulacra).

If you're counting "ways to recruit someone with SLA wish", you should also have planar binding, planar ally, and gate.


3. Shapechange into a Zodar.

Also Planar Wild Shape into anything with wish as an SLA. At least one version of Elemental Wild Shape also granted SLAs, but I don't remember if its current (or if the other details work out right).

Finally, you should have Archmage SLA + Supernatural Transformation (at least, depending on your definition of "innate"). Innate Spell + Supernatural Transformation doesn't work, but did between the release of Player's Guide to Faerun and Complete Arcane. A historical curiosity more than anything else.


Planar sheperd is fine except for the possibility of creating a planar bubble for a fast time plane or a custom demiplane and the enhanced wild-shape allowing access to powerful SLA's and SU's like wish. If you keep an eye on it, it's no big deal.

Yes, if you ignore the broken uses of its abilities, it isn't broken. But so is everything, so that argument seems hollow.


Shapechange is only an issue because zodar. It's othewise just a powerful option that's only slightly more game-breaking than its little brother polymorph. If you can handle polymorph, you can handle this. If you can't, you should've dealt with it 10 levels back.

I dunno if this changed at some point (there are a lot of words written about it, and while some made it worse, it is possible some made it better), but shapechange is insane. You don't lose the Ex abilities you gain when you transform, so you can rack up a list of immunities that is ... impressive. There's a write-up somewhere in this (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=7059&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50) thread (ctrl + F "Blue Mage"). I think that particular one assumes you are playing according to the "Rules of the Game" columns, but the principle applies to the PHB version.


Ice assassin is only a problem if you ignore the material component. There are ways around that by RAW but houseruling that it can't be ignored is entirely reasonable. It and its little brother simulacrum are only as powerful as the creature being copied and the houserule above brings them both into a perfectly reasonable power level.

No it doesn't. Getting to make ice assassins of your enemies is good and all, but you could just make ice assassins of yourself and happily pocket a full-powered duplicate for every 9th level slot you happen to have. simulacrum is even worse, particularly with Mirror Mephits. Using Improved Familiar, your simulacra qualify for Improved Familiar (Mirror Mephit). Or just grab them with lesser planar binding and crank out an army of mini-mes starting at 9th level.


This, basically. When you're talking about actual rules for an actual game, if you want to ban a specific effect, it's far simpler to ban the effect itself ("no free Wish effects")

Honestly, you don't even need to ban "free wish". The only clause in wish that is (uniquely, obviously emulating any spell is as broken as that spell) broken is free magic items. Like, you could get whatever 8th level spell you wanted for a 9th level slot, but you spent (at least) four levels to get to do that, and I'm not even convinced it's an awesome deal.

[Psyren]

If you're going to allow "all sources," you're going to have a heck of a time making a list of *all* of anything. It'd be much easier to just institute a "no free wishes" rule. You are under no obligation to play lawyers and ledgers just so they can google up something you missed.

This.

Also, I like that term ("Lawyers and Ledgers") and will be stealing it.


This, basically. When you're talking about actual rules for an actual game, if you want to ban a specific effect, it's far simpler to ban the effect itself ("no free Wish effects") than to try to ban all the possible sources of that effect ("no Zodars or Dweomerkeepers or Ice Assassins or . . ."). When you're creating general rules for an unknown audience, sure, go legalistic and do your best to let the rules hold up on their own, but when you're running a personal campaign with your friends, talk to them like they're human beings and just tell them what you don't want to see rather than trying to write rules text choking off the undesirable options.

Though to be straight up honest with you, if a player sees a list that's obviously intended to limit access to free Wishes and then tries to sneak in a free Wish on the grounds that their specific method wasn't individually blacklisted, you've got bigger problems than your list simply not being complete enough. The communication needs to be two-sided, of course. Both parties (GM and players) really should be up front with each other about what they're expecting from the game. In hardcore benefit-of-the-doubt mode, if a player doesn't connect the dots that a ban list is trying to ban a specific effect, it's conceivable (unlikely, but conceivable) that they could be acting in good faith by finding something not on the list, which is why it's good for the GM to say why stuff is banned. But yeah. A player who's going to try to weasel around a ban list isn't going to stop being a problem just because you expand the ban list. The problem is solvable, but that is not the way to solve it.

All of this too. As Zaq said, not only is going fully legalistic/specific unlikely to solve the problem, needing to do so is itself a problem too.

[OracleofWuffing]

Am I allowed to Invoke Pazuzu to get a comprehensive free wish source list? :smalltongue:

[Fizban]

Also, I like that term ("Lawyers and Ledgers") and will be stealing it.

I only made it up because I couldn't remember the version I'd last heard someone else use, so by all means. And if you forget the details just make up a new one :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

How about "Cubicles and Copiers?" Gods know if you've ever had to deal with an inudstrial copier you've wanted to stab it with a sword or hit it with an axe. :smalltongue:

[Inevitability]

Have you considered just telling that you blanket disallow free wishes? Making a list will only result in the player trying to weasel around the restrictions.

[gogogome]

I guess I'll just blanket no free wishes then. Thanks.

[Pippin]

May I ask the OP what the player did with Wish that upset him so much? Because Wish, even free, shouldn't be that much of a problem, since the DM can nerf the effect when the player wishes something too big.

[Quertus]

A general note for simulacrum: You can't get wish out of a simulacra of an Efreet, as they have an explicit write-up in Savage Species which grants their wish SLA after 5HD (which they have as a simulacra).

You know, people keep saying this, and it's straight up wrong.

Efreeti advancement is listed as 11-15 (Large); 16-30 (Huge).

So you absolutely can have Efreeti with 18 HD to get a 9 HD simulacrum with wish 1/day, or an Efreet with 20+ HD to get a 10+ HD simulacrum with wish 3/day.

What people should be concerned about is the exactly abilities of a simulacrum of any/every creature not published with a Savage Species progression - but that just gets dumb, and doesn't translate well across different tables/groups.


May I ask the OP what the player did with Wish that upset him so much? Because Wish, even free, shouldn't be that much of a problem, since the DM can nerf the effect when the player wishes something too big.

Second this. There is a list of safe wishes - some of which are pretty powerful (but whaddaya expect - it's a 9th level spell!) - but... beyond that, it's a Monkey's Paw.

[Psyren]

You know, people keep saying this, and it's straight up wrong.

Efreeti advancement is listed as 11-15 (Large); 16-30 (Huge).

So you absolutely can have Efreeti with 18 HD to get a 9 HD simulacrum with wish 1/day, or an Efreet with 20+ HD to get a 10+ HD simulacrum with wish 3/day.

What people should be concerned about is the exactly abilities of a simulacrum of any/every creature not published with a Savage Species progression - but that just gets dumb, and doesn't translate well across different tables/groups.

It's not that you can't, it's that the very existence of Advanced creatures is up to the DM. Monster Manual:


Each of the monster entries in Chapters 1 through 3 describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster.


When you add higher ability scores, class levels, more Hit Dice, or a template to a monster, you make it a more challenging opponent for your players.

The first quote shows that advanced creatures do not exist in the world by default - rather, they "can be created." You cannot create a simulacrum of something that doesn't exist - "it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice". The second quote explicitly spells out who does the creating (if you weren't sure before) - the DM.

[Quertus]

It's not that you can't, it's that the very existence of Advanced creatures is up to the DM. Monster Manual:





The first quote shows that advanced creatures do not exist in the world by default - rather, they "can be created." You cannot create a simulacrum of something that doesn't exist - "it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice". The second quote explicitly spells out who does the creating (if you weren't sure before) - the DM.

I'm pretty sure some advanced HD efreeti exist in a published module (I didn't read it, but the DM's not the type to just randomly chance modules), so I'd say that they absolutely do exist.

Of course, one way or the other, the character has to "find" the efreet in order to get a piece of it for the simulacrum spell (unless shenanigans), so... existence is pretty much a requirement for any simulacrum.

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure some advanced HD efreeti exist in a published module (I didn't read it, but the DM's not the type to just randomly chance modules), so I'd say that they absolutely do exist.

In that module, sure. Just like many modules have unique monsters created just for them (e.g. Ossuary Golem from Tomb of Horrors.) It's up to the DM whether those then exist to be replicated elsewhere.



Of course, one way or the other, the character has to "find" the efreet in order to get a piece of it for the simulacrum spell (unless shenanigans), so... existence is pretty much a requirement for any simulacrum.

The standard reply here is that "a piece of a creature has no price, therefore it's in my pouch/Eschew." But you're absolutely correct - existence is a requirement before we even get to that particular question/issue.

[Telonius]

I'd probably allow "free wishes" a few times. Then, the Efreeti Syndicate gets wind of the character's shenanigans...

[Pippin]

The first quote shows that advanced creatures do not exist in the world by default - rather, they "can be created." You cannot create a simulacrum of something that doesn't exist - "it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice". The second quote explicitly spells out who does the creating (if you weren't sure before) - the DM.
So wizards can't call Paragon Prismatic Great Wyrms through Gate by RAW?

[Cosi]

You know, people keep saying this, and it's straight up wrong.

Efreeti advancement is listed as 11-15 (Large); 16-30 (Huge).

So you absolutely can have Efreeti with 18 HD to get a 9 HD simulacrum with wish 1/day, or an Efreet with 20+ HD to get a 10+ HD simulacrum with wish 3/day.

Fair enough. I was referring to the default Efreet, and actually totally forgot they advance by HD.

I also forgot that you could just play a freaking Efreet if you want free wish particularly badly. It's not a great plan, as you are paying almost twenty levels for one trick, which is quite likely to be nerfed, but it does exist.


What people should be concerned about is the exactly abilities of a simulacrum of any/every creature not published with a Savage Species progression - but that just gets dumb, and doesn't translate well across different tables/groups.

Not really. A simulacrum of a Solar is just a Solar that has 11 HD. Absent a progression, you'd expect that to behave like a Solar with a pile of negative levels, which would still have its wish SLA.


Second this. There is a list of safe wishes - some of which are pretty powerful (but whaddaya expect - it's a 9th level spell!) - but... beyond that, it's a Monkey's Paw.

There are three things you can do with wish that I would describe as "broken", and they're all "safe" effects:

1. wish for a magic item that is arbitrarily powerful.
2. Emulate a broken spell (obviously not wish's fault).
3. Emulate a spell with non-slot costs and avoid those costs. Potentially quite powerful, but probably not worth 5k XP or incorporating Dweomerkeeper into your build (over, say, Incantatrix). Also, not unique to wish, as you can do the same thing with shadow conjuration or the like.

That is, as far as I can recall, 100% of the stuff wish does that is even possibly broken, and a lot of it is not really on wish. It is totally broken to spend a 9th level spell slot today to use wish to emulate greater planar binding for a minion next week, but it is as broken (or more broken) to do the same thing by using an 8th level spell slot to straight up cast greater planar binding.


I'd probably allow "free wishes" a few times. Then, the Efreeti Syndicate gets wind of the character's shenanigans...

Why would you do that? Free wish is either not broken (no reason to punish PCs) or game destroying (no ability to punish PCs). Just figure out what you want wish to do, then let people do that.


So wizards can't call Paragon Prismatic Great Wyrms through Gate by RAW?

I would not rate Psyren's reading of RAW particularly highly in this (or any) case. That said, I don't see it as being particularly relevant, as you can definitely gate in Solars and those guys are 20th level Clerics quite capable of casting their own gate for another Solar.

[Telonius]

Why would you do that? Free wish is either not broken (no reason to punish PCs) or game destroying (no ability to punish PCs). Just figure out what you want wish to do, then let people do that.

Mainly comedic purposes, but also as an in-game explanation as why that sort of thing doesn't happen. If "getting free wishes" were actually possible, why doesn't everybody do it? Answer: because genies have the market cornered and want to keep it that way.

[Psyren]

So wizards can't call Paragon Prismatic Great Wyrms through Gate by RAW?

Do you have a page reference for those? Can players create them?

[Cosi]

Mainly comedic purposes, but also as an in-game explanation as why that sort of thing doesn't happen. If "getting free wishes" were actually possible, why doesn't everybody do it? Answer: because genies have the market cornered and want to keep it that way.

I think either "it isn't possible" or "they totally do, high level play is full of crazy crap people wish for" is a better solution than "there's a cartel that hunts you down if you try". It's narratively less interesting if only one group has wish, and given the absurd number of ways to access it completely implausible.

[Telonius]

It's narratively less interesting if only one group has wish, and given the absurd number of ways to access it completely implausible.

Totally disagree there, but I guess that's just my taste.