PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Hitman - Roguish Archetype



quinron
2016-04-08, 03:15 AM
One of my players is interested in a firearm-oriented character. I'm kind of tired of the Pathfinder-style Gunslinger with Grit and Deeds, so here's my attempt at a guns-and-gunpowder rogue

HITMAN
A contract killer working for an organized crime syndicate or a civil servant infiltrating and dismantling it; a freelance bounty hunter taking out criminals for cash or a good-natured spook hunting ghosts and ghouls. A hitman is skilled at striking without being seen or heard but is just as capable when drawn into a fight.

When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with the pistol and musket.
You also gain proficiency with the artisan’s tools of your choice: smith’s tools, tinker’s tools, or alchemist’s supplies.
*NOTE: I'd recommend using smith's tools to craft guns, tinker's tools to craft bullets, and alchemist's supplies to craft gunpowder and bombs; at least that's the way I'm planning to do it.

Starting at 3rd level, you are able to suppress the loud reports of your firearms. If you are hidden, you can remain hidden after making an attack with a firearm.

At 9th level, you master the art of profiling your targets and tracking them down. You have advantage on Intelligence (Investigation) checks to gather information about an individual, on Wisdom (Insight) checks to see through disguises, and on Wisdom (Perception) checks to pick out a specific target in a crowd. In addition, whenever you lose the trail of a target you are tracking or chasing, you can make a Wisdom (Insight) check to try to intuit which direction they went.

At 13th level, you can draw and fire at a moment’s notice. On your turn, if you are wielding a pistol, a hand crossbow, or a light melee weapon in one hand and your other hand is free, you can draw, fire, and reholster a pistol as a bonus action. A pistol fired using this feature is not reloaded as part of the attack and can only be fired once before it must be drawn again, then reloaded using a free hand as part of the Attack action.

At 17th level, you become an expert of lining up deadly shots. As long as you are not within a hostile creature's melee reach, you can deal your sneak attack damage to any creature you hit with an attack from a firearm, regardless of whether it would otherwise be considered a sneak attack.
In addition, as long as you do not move during your turn, you double both the normal and maximum range of your weapon when making an attack with a firearm against a target that is at least 60 feet away from you, and you can roll half your sneak attack dice (rounded down) one additional time, adding this damage to the attack.

For those not interested in including gunpowder, I've also made some adjustments to theme the class around crossbows rather than firearms.

When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with the heavy crossbow.
You also gain proficiency with alchemist’s supplies.
*NOTE: Alchemist's supplies aren't essential to this variant since it doesn't use gunpowder, but they still let you craft acid vials and alchemist's fire (and also maybe holy water, depending on interpretation).

Starting at 3rd level, you are able to keep out of sight while striking. If you are hidden, you can remain hidden after making an attack with a ranged weapon.
*NOTE: I've given the benefit here to all ranged weapons to make up for the greater power of firearms and the greater choice afforded by the firearm version's Bonus Proficiencies.

At 9th level, you master the art of profiling your targets and tracking them down. You have advantage on Intelligence (Investigation) checks to gather information about an individual, on Wisdom (Insight) checks to see through disguises, and on Wisdom (Perception) checks to pick out a specific target in a crowd. In addition, whenever you lose the trail of a target you are tracking or chasing, you can make a Wisdom (Insight) check to try to intuit which direction they went.

At 13th level, you can draw and fire at a moment’s notice. On your turn, if you are wielding a hand crossbow or a light melee weapon in one hand and your other hand is free, you can draw, fire, and reholster a hand crossbow as a bonus action. A hand crossbow fired using this feature is not reloaded as part of the attack and can only be fired once before it must be drawn again, then reloaded using a free hand as part of the Attack action.

At 17th level, you are an expert of lining up deadly shots. As long as you are not within a hostile creature's melee reach, you can deal your sneak attack damage to any creature you hit with an attack from a crossbow, regardless of whether it would otherwise be considered a sneak attack.
In addition, as long as you do not move during your turn, you double both the normal and maximum range of your weapon when making an attack with a crossbow against a target that is at least 60 feet away from you, and you can roll half your sneak attack dice (rounded down) one additional time, adding this damage to the attack.

Comments? Concerns? Advice? I'm open to any feedback I can get.

EDIT: Updated this post to reflect changes through post #11.

Final Hyena
2016-04-08, 05:58 AM
My first thought was the archetype was a bit weak, before I remember that you're going from d6 to d12 weapon damage.

Bombs make little sense to a rogue as they give no sneak attack damage, which is also why giving bombs dex to damage seems weird. Perhaps replace this with a fun ability, maybe you can do a tracking shot that deals less damage but slows movement?

The sniper feature allows you to get sneak attack on any attack, even at point blank when they force disadvantage... This seems to clash with the idea of sniper. Perhaps change it to you get sneak attack on any enemy that is so far away from you, or as long as you are not in a threatened zone?

Oramac
2016-04-08, 09:07 AM
I admit, my first thought was to just allow the Assassin archetype to use firearms. But you've got a pretty good base there for Agent 47.

I do agree with Final Hyena about the Sniper feature though. At the very least, I'd make it only work if you're not in melee range.

quinron
2016-04-08, 01:15 PM
Thanks for the feedback! I've edited the Sniper feature to include a stipulation that you can't be within an enemy's melee reach.

Stepping back and looking at the archetype, I agree with Final Hyena: I shoehorned in the Grenadier feature just to make sure I fit bombs in, but I don't like it now. I realized I didn't give this archetype any non-combat features, so I've come up with an idea for one that I like:

You can declare one creature whose identity you know to be your "target." You begin profiling and tracking them, probably granting advantage or some similar bonus to Investigation checks to gather information on them and Survival checks to track them. But that alone feels pretty underwhelming for a 9th-level feature; I'd like it to be on par with the Assassin's Infiltration Expertise feature.

Any advice on how to make this more potent? I'm hitting a wall.

Oramac
2016-04-08, 02:46 PM
TYou can declare one creature whose identity you know to be your "target." You begin profiling and tracking them, probably granting advantage or some similar bonus to Investigation checks to gather information on them and Survival checks to track them. But that alone feels pretty underwhelming for a 9th-level feature; I'd like it to be on par with the Assassin's Infiltration Expertise feature.

Any advice on how to make this more potent? I'm hitting a wall.

Something like that almost qualifies to be a 3rd level Ribbon. It's very similar to the Ranger's Favored Enemy feature.

It's kind of a copout, but for a Hitman-ish 9th level feature, I'd probably just copy/paste the 9th level Mastermind feature. Or maybe a refluffed and buffed version of Master of Intrigue.

quinron
2016-04-09, 01:01 AM
Something like that almost qualifies to be a 3rd level Ribbon. It's very similar to the Ranger's Favored Enemy feature.

It's kind of a copout, but for a Hitman-ish 9th level feature, I'd probably just copy/paste the 9th level Mastermind feature. Or maybe a refluffed and buffed version of Master of Intrigue.

The internet's a lovely thing - I don't have the SCAG yet, nor do I plan to use it in this campaign when/if I do get it, but fortunately the whole Mastermind archetype was released by WotC in a promotional image!

Unfortunately, it's not really what I'm looking for. I don't want deception and disguises to be part of the Hitman's game; my main inspirations have been Mike Ehrmantraut from Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul and the Punisher's portrayal in the recent Daredevil series - implacable expert killers who are never more than a step behind their targets, and then not for long.

That said, I've whipped up a possible replacement feature:

GATHER INTELLIGENCE
At 9th level, you master the art of profiling your targets to track them down. By spending at least three days gathering information, you can designate one humanoid whose identity you know to be your Target; you can have only one Target at a time, and you must spend another three days gathering information to designate a new Target. You have advantage on Intelligence (Investigation) checks made to gather information on your Target and on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track their movements within the past day.
In addition, you have developed profiles not only on your Target, but on their relationships and associations. After spending at least one hour personally engaging with a given individual, you are able to determine exactly what, if any, relation they have to your Target, and you automatically succeed on any Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether they are attempting to deceive or mislead you in matters related to your Target, though you may choose to pretend that they have successfully deceived or mislead you if you so choose.
You must roll as normal for any Wisdom (Insight) checks made before having spent an entire hour in the individual’s company. You cannot retroactively succeed on any checks you failed within this hour.

This was my best attempt to keep the word count on this feature down while still making things clear and covering loopholes. The automatic success on Insight feels powerful but not broken (though I'm probably biased), and I added the condition of having to spend an hour with them to make this the kind of thing that you have to invest some time into. Does that feel like too short a time requirement? Now I'm thinking maybe it is.

Final Hyena
2016-04-09, 02:26 AM
Thanks for the feedback! I've edited the Sniper feature to include a stipulation that you can't be within an enemy's melee reach.
Glad to help.


Stepping back and looking at the archetype, I agree with Final Hyena: I shoehorned in the Grenadier feature just to make sure I fit bombs in, but I don't like it now.
I know, I did a similar thing when I first trying to integrate bombs into my campaign, if you're interested I added in this feat to make bombs viable, it gives lots of stuff, but that's because bombs really aren't viable past low level. I think there really needs to a proper class with archetypes for firearms and bombs.

Bomb Expert
The time spent experimenting with bombs has granted you the following benefits (all references to bombs are interchangeable with any similar weapon such as alchemist's fire or acid):

You are proficient with all bombs.
You can use strength or dexterity to attack with bombs (does not affect damage).
Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls with bombs.
You can throw as many bombs as you could normally make attacks when using the attack action.
You can craft bombs in half the normal time.
You can apply barbarian raging damage bonus to bombs you throw (With strength) when raging. The extra rage damage only applies to the target in the centre of the radius.



GATHER INTELLIGENCE
At 9th level, you master the art of profiling your targets to track them down. By spending at least three days gathering information, you can designate one humanoid whose identity you know to be your Target; you can have only one Target at a time, and you must spend another three days gathering information to designate a new Target. You have advantage on Intelligence (Investigation) checks made to gather information on your Target and on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track their movements within the past day.
In addition, you have developed profiles not only on your Target, but on their relationships and associations. After spending at least one hour personally engaging with a given individual, you are able to determine exactly what, if any, relation they have to your Target, and you automatically succeed on any Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether they are attempting to deceive or mislead you in matters related to your Target, though you may choose to pretend that they have successfully deceived or mislead you if you so choose.
You must roll as normal for any Wisdom (Insight) checks made before having spent an entire hour in the individual’s company. You cannot retroactively succeed on any checks you failed within this hour.

This was my best attempt to keep the word count on this feature down while still making things clear and covering loopholes. The automatic success on Insight feels powerful but not broken (though I'm probably biased), and I added the condition of having to spend an hour with them to make this the kind of thing that you have to invest some time into. Does that feel like too short a time requirement? Now I'm thinking maybe it is.

Forgive me if I misunderstood but isn't this something you could do without the feature? It also takes away from the potential of RPing those things.
The one thing that I feel is missing is the aspect of actually being able to snipe a target, I know you can shoot silently and double weapon range, but what happens when you shoot a target and they are rushed away before your next turn? is d12+5+d6 every 2 levels enough to assassinate someone?

How about a feature where you can line up a shot for several rounds and get extra damage maybe an automatic crit. It honestly doesn't feel any better than what the assassin can do.

quinron
2016-04-09, 04:06 AM
I know, I did a similar thing when I first trying to integrate bombs into my campaign, if you're interested I added in this feat to make bombs viable, it gives lots of stuff, but that's because bombs really aren't viable past low level. I think there really needs to a proper class with archetypes for firearms and bombs.

Bomb Expert
The time spent experimenting with bombs has granted you the following benefits (all references to bombs are interchangeable with any similar weapon such as alchemist's fire or acid):

You are proficient with all bombs.
You can use strength or dexterity to attack with bombs (does not affect damage).
Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls with bombs.
You can throw as many bombs as you could normally make attacks when using the attack action.
You can craft bombs in half the normal time.
You can apply barbarian raging damage bonus to bombs you throw (With strength) when raging. The extra rage damage only applies to the target in the centre of the radius.



Thanks - this is definitely being added to the list of options for my players.



Forgive me if I misunderstood but isn't this something you could do without the feature? It also takes away from the potential of RPing those things.

This... this is what happens when I try to write concisely while covering loopholes. It looked brilliant when I first wrote it up, but now it just reads like a mess. It needs work, yeah, but I still want to have something similar - some kind of non-combat, non-disguise/-deception-based ability related to profiling and therefore being able to track down one specific target, like a skilled contract killer.


The one thing that I feel is missing is the aspect of actually being able to snipe a target, I know you can shoot silently and double weapon range, but what happens when you shoot a target and they are rushed away before your next turn? is d12+5+d6 every 2 levels enough to assassinate someone?

How about a feature where you can line up a shot for several rounds and get extra damage maybe an automatic crit. It honestly doesn't feel any better than what the assassin can do.

I think you're right. A quick fix:

SNIPER
At 17th level, you can line up shots from long distances, provided you have the time and focus. You double both the normal and maximum range of your weapon when making an attack with a firearm against a creature that can't see you. Whenever you succeed on an attack roll with a firearm against a creature that can't see you, in addition to your normal sneak attack damage, you can roll half your sneak attack dice (rounded down) one additional time and add it to the damage.
In addition, as long as you are not within a hostile creature's melee reach, you can deal your sneak attack damage to any creature you hit with an attack from a firearm, regardless of whether it would otherwise be considered a sneak attack.
You cannot benefit from this feature if you move during your turn.

This isn't as powerful as Death Strike and you still can't move while using it, but I think there's enough here that it balances out to be roughly equal. As well, considering you don't gain proficiency with advanced firearms, you're sniping with, at best, a musket; not exactly an M40.

You may not drop an enemy in a single hit, but you can stay camped out and keep sniping to your heart's content; for situations where splitting up like that isn't viable, you've still got the 1.5x sneak attack against targets that can't see you (Cunning Action to Hide, of course) which, coupled with Silent Shot, means basically the same thing; and when you can't hide, you've still got the restrictions on sneak attack removed, meaning you can reliably take down an enemy without your allies having to wade in against it first.

With this change, I think I'll also change Silent Shot to only work with pistols; it just seems like the right thing to do.

Final Hyena
2016-04-09, 04:51 AM
Thanks - this is definitely being added to the list of options for my players.

If you're interested I also have this, it doesn't quite fit the Hitman theme, but it might be desirable for one of your players.
http://s22.postimg.org/m2lyxee8h/Blunderbuss.png

This... this is what happens when I try to write concisely while covering loopholes. It looked brilliant when I first wrote it up, but now it just reads like a mess. It needs work, yeah, but I still want to have something similar - some kind of non-combat, non-disguise/-deception-based ability related to profiling and therefore being able to track down one specific target, like a skilled contract killer.

Perhaps giving advantage to recognise a target in disguise or in a crowd, to guess which path they would run down. That kinda thing would be less wordy and still be useful.


With this change, I think I'll also change Silent Shot to only work with pistols; it just seems like the right thing to do.

I'm not suer why you could silence a pistol, but not a musket, also the +1 damage isn't crazy. It also slightly contradicts the idea of sniping from range stealthily. Perhaps something like a proximity to the shooter, say those within half the standard weapon range are aware of him.

quinron
2016-04-09, 01:19 PM
If you're interested I also have this, it doesn't quite fit the Hitman theme, but it might be desirable for one of your players.
http://s22.postimg.org/m2lyxee8h/Blunderbuss.png

Thanks, this will be great as well - firearms still aren't a thing in-world just yet, but I have a player who's new to the game who was joking about having a pistol as a ranged weapon rather than a shortbow. Little did he know I was planning on introducing them in the next arc.:smallwink:


Perhaps giving advantage to recognise a target in disguise or in a crowd, to guess which path they would run down. That kinda thing would be less wordy and still be useful.

Good ideas! I hadn't been able to put it in so many words yet, but I want this feature to be opposite of the way most rogues work - where they focus on stealth, deception, disguise, etc., the hitman focuses on seeing through those things in other people. So how about:

MANHUNTER
At 9th level, you master the art of profiling your targets and tracking them down. You have advantage on Intelligence (Investigation) checks to gather information about an individual, on Wisdom (Insight) checks to see through disguises, and on Wisdom (Perception) checks to pick out a specific target in a crowd. In addition, whenever you lose the trail of a target you are tracking or chasing, you can make a Wisdom (Insight) check to try to intuit which direction they went.

Comparing this to the Thief's level 9 feature, it grants more and easier-to-get bonuses, but they're more situational. I'm also not 100% certain about the intuition check - I'm not reading Insight as granting that ability already, but if that's a common interpretation, I'd be willing to bump it up to advantage on those checks.


I'm not suer why you could silence a pistol, but not a musket, also the +1 damage isn't crazy. It also slightly contradicts the idea of sniping from range stealthily. Perhaps something like a proximity to the shooter, say those within half the standard weapon range are aware of him.

My concern is with the combination of Silent Shot and the change to Sniper: if you hide once, you're effectively free to just crouch 10 feet from an enemy and keep taking 1.5x sneak attack damage shots with a ~4-foot-long gun every turn without being seen. Doesn't exactly feel like sniping to me. But I think a proximity factor could make things work. With that in mind:

SNIPER
At 17th level, you are an expert of lining up deadly shots. As long as you are not within a hostile creature's melee reach, you can deal your sneak attack damage to any creature you hit with an attack from a firearm, regardless of whether it would otherwise be considered a sneak attack.
In addition, as long as you do not move during your turn, you double both the normal and maximum range of your weapon when making an attack with a firearm against a target that is at least 60 feet away from you, and you can roll half your sneak attack dice (rounded down) one additional time, adding this damage to the attack.

I thought it best to swap the order of the wording to establish the unrestricted sneak attack before the long-range specials, but this actually fits my design philosophy best: You have to stay still and line up a shot from a distance to get the sniper bonus, but you're still better than normal at defending yourself when enemies start closing in on you. The unrestricted sneak attack was meant to be a way to better defend yourself when enemies start closing in on your sniping perch, so I think being able Disengage, hop back a few feet, and then take a shot makes it much more useful.

Final Hyena
2016-04-09, 01:41 PM
"Realistically" it makes sense to make guns simple, but balance wise it makes more sense to make them martial. Just thought I'lld mention that as something to consider.

Anyway I think the problem with silent shot still exists with pistols. Perhaps a simple compromise is that you can silence pistols or muskets, but it takes time to set up.

Anyway Love the Manhunter and reworked Sniper features.

quinron
2016-04-09, 02:45 PM
"Realistically" it makes sense to make guns simple, but balance wise it makes more sense to make them martial. Just thought I'lld mention that as something to consider.

I'm planning on keeping the specialized "firearm" proficiency for them - the party in my current game will have a good chunk of downtime after they finish this arc, so if any of them want to spend their time training with firearms, I'm willing to let them.


Anyway I think the problem with silent shot still exists with pistols. Perhaps a simple compromise is that you can silence pistols or muskets, but it takes time to set up.

Anyway Love the Manhunter and reworked Sniper features.

You're right, of course; that fix wouldn't have solved my main concern, which was that Sniper wasn't feeling like a long-range-oriented ability. With the rework, I'm happy. And now I'll be moving on to the next brew I had planned - a Fighter archetype based on guns & bombs. :small wink:

EDIT: Updated the original post to reflect changes up through this post.