3rd level roguish character.

[dehro]

Hi all, my party includes a dread necromancer, his fighter bodyguard, an archivist and yours truly who had been playing a rogue who turned out not to be great-axe resistant.
They are all fourth level, close to levelling up. I will play catch-up starting from third level.

My first thoughts were to play a spellthief, but with my fellow players being of a less than collaborative nature, I would be mostly dependent on stealing spells from opponents, wasting half the potential of the class. They're the kind of players that will grudgingly help your character out when he's about to die and will then either take advantage of the fact ingame to bully your character around because he's in their debt, or lord it over you and remark time and time again how useless you are as a player (mind you, I do have to agree with them on that score. My characters die often and, half the times, I'm at fault for not having used my abilities with efficiency or strategic forethought). However, the notion of actually using their abilities in a collaborative fashion to help each other (well, ok, me) out making the most of our respective characters prior to everything turning into human waste, is beyond them. The main culprits of this attitude seem to always be picking characters that are as self sufficient as possible, have either class, alignment or background restrictions that make them self centered or otherwise stop them from being collaborative... And the players have a fair bit of fun steering conversations towards a put up or shut up moment, in full knowledge that they would have the upper hand in a direct confrontation. Internal strife seems a constant in all our campaigns. But I can't really complain too much because, of the players that are on the receiving end of this attitude, I'm the only one whose characters die routinely, as I said, mostly due to extremely bad luck with the dice and my own fault. It does however grate that more often than not I find myself depending on the goodwill of the other characters / players.
/Endrant.

Anyhoo, my new character should be a bit of a skillmonkey, aiming for rogue/swashbuckler.
So far, my stats: 16 16 15 13 11 8.
I'm thinking human with high Int, Cha and Dex, able learner, daring outlaw and... Weapon finesse? Force of personality?
I'd go
STR 11
DEX 16
CON 13
WIS 8
INT 16
CHA 15

The setting is faerun-like and we're currently recruited by the Harpers to solve a kidnapping.
Does this make sense? Which should go first? Force of personality or weapon finesse?
Should the progression be swashbuckler-rogue-swashbuckler or rogue-swashbuckler-rogue?
Swashbuckler first allows me to get weapon finesse for free and pick force of personality as extra feat.. Rogue first means I start out of the gates with a crapton of skill points and evasion
Do I have better feat options? Where to go from there? I could climb the TWF tree, but I'm not sure that that's much better, when we have archivist and necromancer evoking cannon fodder and meat shields, also, the fighter
Further down the road I would like to have some sort of way to heal myself other than potions, just to avoid having to beg the archivist for healing. So far I'll make do with a healing belt, but ideas for something more efficient are welcome, as are ideas on how to further the progression and feat selection.

[A.A.King]

If you plan to play a Rogue/Swashbuckler the usual progression is Rogue 1 / Swashbuckler 1 / Rogue +2 (3) / Swashbuckler X. Also: No need to worry about Weapon Finesse vs. Force of Personality because Swashbuckler will get Weapon Finesse as their first level bonus feat meaning that your third level feat is free.

However, what do you want your character to be able to do. When you say skill monkey I'm assuming you are the designated trapmonkey (meaning you have to have Trapfinding and Search + Disable Device Ranks) but there are other ways to fill that role without being a Rogue, ways which will make healing easier. So without mentioning classes, what would you like to be able to do and what sources are generally allowed?

[dehro]

Everything Wotc minus magazines, feats and classes from those sources are all accessible. Spells are limited to core + spell compendium.
Things beyond those limitations are up for haggling but will most likely be shot down.
Class limitations should be withing the range of 2 classes + at most one PrC. Dipping in a bunch of classes just to get that one perfect combo lined up would be frowned upon.
Yes, I would be the designated trapmonkey and possibly tracker. (I am a bit bored with the rogue-scout combo, and am already playing that in our other campaign).
Edit: healing is, at the moment, a secondary concern

[Khedrac]

Can I suggest Beguiler?

It has the skill points and skills list to cover Skill Monkey better than rogue.
It's a good spell-caster, and its spell list should complement Dread Necro and Cleric rather than being redundant.

You will suffer from being a level behind with sorcerer progression, and melee will not be the place for you (except while invisible or similar) but it is a good class.

[thethird]

With that kind of fellow players I would look at druid...

That said have you considered factotum into chameleon? It's fun, has many options available and it's a capable skill monkey (along with anything you need it to be). It also offers you a trading tool, if you've got an archivist you need to beg for healing sometimes let him beg you to prepare any divine spell you want and get him in your debt as you teach them to him. :smallamused:

Rogue/Swashbuckler is similar to Rogue/Scout and you will end facing similar problems.

[A.A.King]

I too would suggest Beguiler, and if you want to go a more Duelist route (like you did with Rogue / Swashbuckler) I would suggest going Beguiler 1 / Fighter 1 / Beguiler +1 (2) to eventually end up Beguiler 4 / Fighter 1 / Unseen Seer X.
The 1 level of Fighter should have the Sneak Attack Fighter ACF from UA/SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) and either have the Hit-And-Run ACF from Drow of the Underdark or, if that isn't allowed (your DM might rule it to be Drow Only) the Thug Variant also from UA/SRD (which is explicitly stated to be compatible with the Sneak Attack ACF even though it doesn't have a Fighter Bonus Feat at first level) just to get those extra 2 skill points. There is not really an option to add healing to this build but it frees up a first level feat because you won't need Able Learner (seeing as you'll only take one level of a class that doesn't have the skills you want.

[HammeredWharf]

A Daring Outlaw setup just won't cut it if you're playing with multiple T1 casters who are optimized and don't want to help you. Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer is a more powerful option. Alternatively, you could go Spellthief/Wizard/US and pick Master Spellthief. Beguiler/Unseen Seer is easier to build and works quite well, but is a bit more limiting.

[Gildedragon]

Might I suggest a factotum
It has in party synergy with the archivist

[Gnaeus]

If your DM allows downtime for item crafting (ask if you aren't sure) the strongest option is Artificer from eberron. It's a tier 1 with trapfinding, and even the most selfish characters will go out of their way to keep their magic item creator alive. In a party like THAT, you want to be making their items at 60-80% of cost, depending on how nice they are to you.

Otherwise, as suggested, beguiler or factotum fill the role well. Swashbuckler is underwhelming, and probably better suited for a lower op environment.

[dehro]

uhm.. I don't have the prerequisites for daring outlaw at third level..

[ATHATH]

If you don't want to be a Beguiler, have you considered playing a Psychic Rogue (progressing into Ebon Saint)?

[dehro]

derp.. my mistake.. I forgot to mention, Psionics are also not accepted.

classwise, I think I'll stick to rogue-swashbuckler-rogue..

as for feats.. able learner seems redundant on second thoughts.. I get 9+int skill points on half my levels.. and have a ton of class skills.
since I don't qualify for daring outlaw yet, I'm thinking I could go with
weapon finesse, keen intellect from UE (instead of force of personality),
then maybe weapon focus and crossbow sniper?? something else?

[ATHATH]

derp.. my mistake.. I forgot to mention, Psionics are also not accepted.

classwise, I think I'll stick to rogue-swashbuckler-rogue..

as for feats.. able learner seems redundant on second thoughts.. I get 9+int skill points on half my levels.. and have a ton of class skills.
since I don't qualify for daring outlaw yet, I'm thinking I could go with
weapon finesse, keen intellect from UE (instead of force of personality),
then maybe weapon focus and crossbow sniper?? something else?
Out of curiosity... Why does your DM ban Psionics?

[ComaVision]

Out of curiosity... Why does your DM ban Psionics?

Psionics are way too overpowered. Only balanced classes like the Archivist are acceptable.

[dehro]

None of us like'em

[ATHATH]

None of us like'em
But WHY don't you like them?

[dehro]

But WHY don't you like them?

lol.. I don't "dislike them".. I just always thought they don't really fit in the scenarios I play in.. somehow I associate them with science fiction/superheroes rather than with classic fantasy, flavour-wise. The same holds for Monks, which I would only play in a far east setting... also, I know little about them and how the game mechanics are... but that's just me, no idea why the other players in my group dislike them, but I think it's a reason not far from my own views.
anyway, it amounts to the same, we're not using psionics.

[WeaselGuy]

If you're looking into Rogue/Swashbuckler, along with Weapon Focus and Crossbow Sniper, might I suggest instead Hand Crossbow Focus to go with Crossbow Sniper, and then look at Versatile Combatant (from DotU)? It's starting to get a little feat intensive, but I think your progression would look a little something like this:


Rogue 1 - Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding - Versatile Combatant
Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse - Weapon Finesse B
Rogue 2 - Evasion - Hand Crossbow Focus
Rogue 3 - Sneak Attack +2d6, Penetrating StrikeACF
Swashbuckler 2 - Grace +1
Swashbuckler 3 - Insightful Strike, Sneak Attack +3d6 - Daring Outlaw
Swashbuckler 4 -
Swashbuckler 5 - Dodge Bonus +1
Swashbuckler 6 - Sneak Attack +4d6 - Crossbow Sniper


After all that, obviously keep progressing as a Swashbuckler to keep getting Sneak Attack dice. Craven should be in there somewhere, to add your character level to your damage on sneak attacks, but you will also fail pretty much all of your saves vs fear.

[dehro]

Edit:
I got swordsaged by Weaselguy who weaseled in his reply before I posted..


according to one guy in my group, I should swap around things with CON 15, WIS 13 and CHA 8 .. but I'm kinda going with the whole dashing rogue type, and I wouldn't want to be crippled in bluff, intimidate, use magic devices and similar.. even though I'm aware that hitpoints are precious
then again, if I did swap them putting 8 in Charisma, I could take another feat in lieu of keen intellect..

I'm very much undecided..
so far I think I'll be going with
human
stats: STR 11, DEX 16, CON, 13, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 15

1 Rogue - Sneak Attack +1d6, trapfinding - Keen Intellect, Weapon Focus (small crossbow)
2 Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse
3 Rogue 2 - Evasion - Crossbow Sniper
I'm not entirely sold on the weapon focus=> crossbow sniper combo.. if there's anything more efficient I'm all ears, whether it puts me in melee or focusses on, say, non combat situations.

either way, then I'd continue with:
4 Swasbuckler 2 - Grace +1 / +1 to CON
5 Rogue 3 - Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1
6 Swashbuckler 3 - Insightful strike - Daring Outlaw

after which I'd continue the progression rogue/swashbuckler with potentially picking up a PrC (Harper related maybe if they're any good?).. but I'm completely lost at sea as to what feats to pick later and whether to pick a PrC at all.

P.S one important thing I forgot to mention is that in our group we've always played with multiclass penalties as to favourite class... which I suppose is not an issue with human??:smallconfused:

[ComaVision]

If you're grabbing Daring Outlaw, don't go into a PrC.

[WeaselGuy]

If you're grabbing Daring Outlaw, don't go into a PrC.

This, 100%.

As far as future feats, again, I suggest Craven, for that extra damage. Applying more TWF feats would not be a bad thing at all, to get more attacks, but you run the risk of being stuck in melee range with a d8 hit die. An SLT Barbarian dip would not terrible, for pounce, but then you're pushing everything back a level (and possible dealing with multiclass penalties, if your DM hates you).

[dehro]

so you say I should be foregoing further rogue classes completely? mmmh those extra 4 skill points per level looked inviting.
where does that leave me in terms of skillmonkeying things?
also, my DM may deem the versatile combatant a bit too drow-centric to allow a human to take it

[Kelb_Panthera]

Question: are you deliberately trying to avoid being a caster for some reason?

[dehro]

Question: are you deliberately trying to avoid being a caster for some reason?

not particularly.. other than for the fact that 2 out of 4 of us are casters already (and they are no good with a padlock) and I would never be on par with them in terms of magic using, so I might as well do something else... if that something else can be assisted by a magic talent or somesuch, I am open to it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

not particularly.. other than for the fact that 2 out of 4 of us are casters already (and they are no good with a padlock) and I would never be on par with them in terms of magic using, so I might as well do something else... if that something else can be assisted by a magic talent or somesuch, I am open to it.

Magic is -always- a boon to whatever you're primary skill is, be it hitting stuff with a sword, sneaking through a secure area, or what-have-you.

You should seriously reconsider beguiler or rogue/<arcanist>/ unseen seer or the like.

Perhaps noteworthy: you can get trapfinding on -any- character by picking up shape-soulmeld (theft gloves) and a reliable way of opening their hands chakra; either open least chakra as the feat or the spell in a wand.

[dehro]

you can get trapfinding on -any- character by picking up shape-soulmeld (theft gloves) and a reliable way of opening their hands chakra; either open least chakra as the feat or the spell in a wand.

say what now?:confused:

[Gnaeus]

so you say I should be foregoing further rogue classes completely? mmmh those extra 4 skill points per level looked inviting.
where does that leave me in terms of skillmonkeying things?

The problem is that your goals are conflicted.
You want to be a skillmonkey, in an optimized party that actively scorns the weak, and does not help them. Skillmonkey is a weak role in 3.5. The best (as in most powerful, most self sufficient) skill monkeys are magic types. But you want to be a rogue swashbuckler.

Swashbuckler is a weak class in 3.5. Rogue is slightly stronger, but weaker in combat. Your LAST rogue got killed by a lucky crit. But you want your swashbuckler to have piles of skillmonkey levels, which reduce his already limited combat abilities, so that you will be killed AGAIN.

If you don't want to be killed again, as a skill type, get out of melee. Swashbuckler, with or without daring outlaw, is just going to put you in melee. It is designed to. But it will put you in melee with crummy AC, crummy damage, more MAD than the fighter, and, if you keep taking roguish levels, crummy hp. The only skills you need for the trap role are search, disable device and pick locks. Losing damage, ac and hp for skill points is the direction to the greataxe train.

If you think you shouldn't be casting spells, because you have 2 casters, and you will always be one level behind them, you are playing the wrong game system. The archivist will be better than you are at trapfinding also. Thats because he is a caster, and you are a muggle. He can get a wand of mount and be better than you right now (assuming mount is a cleric spell on some domain, which I bet it is). Skills are worse than spells in 3.5, and the archivist has access to plenty that will make him a better party face, and a better trap finder/bypasser. The fighter will always own a (mostly) rogue/(dip) swashbuckler in combat.

That isn't to say Daring Outlaw is useless, it is just the opposite of what your situation calls for. We played a campaign where our daring outlaw was one of our highest damage dealers, but we were capped at T3, using a heavily houseruled swashbuckler, and he was our favorite buff target. A Hasted, Polymorphed swashbuckler with a bunch of extra feats can compete with any T3 (although even he can't touch an all sources open archivist). But you will be an out of the book, unbuffed swashbuckler/rogue, and that is going to be a hard route to take in a party with full casters who want you to pull your weight. The ONLY way you can pull your weight is with heavy UMD, and if you plan to use heavy UMD, again, you are just making yourself into a caster, just a worse caster than a Beguiler or factotum or artificer. Edit: Or, as Kelb suggests, use some Incarna. That works fine also.

[dehro]

mmmh, so I'm probably better off being content with playing a rogue, being the swiss army knife and staying out of trouble/range when there isn't a safe to crack.. or I should aim for Rogue/beguiler or somesuch
argh.. I love browsing the classes and making up weird combos or backgrounds for characters, but when it comes to actually putting together something functional, I never seem to be able to puzzle it together.

[Kelb_Panthera]

say what now?:confused:

Magic of Incarnum has a certain feat, shape soulmeld, that allows you to use one of the special abilities of the classes in that book. When you pick it, you have to choose which soulmeld you're going to be able to shape; theft gloves in this case.

Theft gloves give you a minor insight bonus to a few rogueish skills and allows you to make them untrained but that's a minor point. The gold here is that, if you can bind the soulmeld to your hands chakra (taking up the magic item space as a set of magic gloves) it also gives you trapfinding, as the class feature.

Outside of actually being a meldshaper, you open chakras by either taking more feats, open least/lesser/greater chakra, or being targetted with one of the spells of the same name. The hands are a least chakra and the open least chakra spell fits in a wand. You could also get a lesser schema of open least chakra and use that since the spell's duration is 24hrs anyway.

For a feat and 11,200gp or 2 feats, anybody can have trapfinding.

[nedz]

Beguilers get Trapfinding and can take the feat Arcane Disciple to expand their spell list - which could give you a little healing.
If you were going for a Rogue / Beguiler then you should swap out the Rogue's Trapfinding for some ACF - Beguiler has no ACFs.

[ATHATH]

Anyone can get Trapfinding with no feat or class investment by going to the Catalogues of Enlightenment and choosing the granted power of the Kobold domain.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Anyone can get Trapfinding with no feat or class investment by going to the Catalogues of Enlightenment and choosing the granted power of the Kobold domain.

That requires the planar touchstone feat to work.

[ATHATH]

That requires the planar touchstone feat to work.
Really? I thought you just had to visit it.

[Troacctid]

Really? I thought you just had to visit it.

It's the opposite--you need the feat, but you don't need to visit the site. (Visiting unlocks the higher-order ability.)

[thethird]

Mhh...

It's ditching rogue alltogether but you mentioned you wanted to play spellthief before you disregarded that because party composition and melee survival. Unseen seer seems to be pointed towards a prc that fulfills your role and interest.

Why don't you go with Spellthief 1 / Wizard 5 / Unseen Seer X

Take spontaneous divination (ACF) and master spellthief as soon as you qualify for it. Use your wizard spells to better yourself as an skill monkey and when in combat use some of those useful divination buffs.