help with 1/2 catfolk, 1/2 red dragon monk.

[delguidance]

Hi,

I'm starting a new campaign and our friend Tom wants a half catfolk, half red dragon, which we're all okay with. In order to balance things we thought that he should "build up" to having the full abilities of his race.

The thing is we're unclear on how some of this will work out.

I've only included the stuff we're worried about in the following description.

The catfolk from Races of Wild get +4 dex, +2 Cha, for +1 level adjustment.

1/2 dragon template: increases hit die to d12, base skill points are 6 + int modifier, Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2, all for level +3.

At the end of this the player wants to be a monk.

This is the current plan, but I'm open to suggestions:

He's looking at a total of +4 to his level because of the races.

His first level will be monk, and then over the next four levels the racial modifiers will come into play.

Questions we have:

How many hit points does he get at each level for the first five levels?

Do his saves increase for the first five levels?

How many skill points does he get per level.

Is there an easier way to keep him balanced with the rest of the party, like a 1/2 dragon class he can take similar to the way undead can progress in Libris Mortis?

Any help is appreciated.

I know its weird, believe me I know, I'm sorry.

[TheOOB]

This character will end up being very, very weak no matter how you run it. Keep in mind that at ECL 5l, the character will only have 8+con modifier hp, meaning a single attack will likely kill them, as neither catfolk nor half dragon add good defensive utilities.

It also doesn't help that monk is uber-level dependant, the LA kills it.

Anyways, Your friends best bet it to change their base race, and to stagger the half dragon monster "class" from the wizards websight over the course of their first 6 or so levels.

Catfolk are really weak for a LA +1 race, bout as bad as planetouched, a simple option would be to use a no LA varient, and what do you know I have a 0 LA, catfolk race right here that I made awhile ago.

Nekomimi
Nekomimi(literally cat-ear in japanese) are a humanoid race that are blended with felines, sharing traits of both. They are generally humanoid in appearance, and have a number of cat-like features, which always include at least cat ears and a tail, and can include body fur covering parts, sometimes even most the body, and more pronounced cat-like features(generally nekomimi who live is wild or rural areas are more cat-like while nekomimi in urban areas grow to be more human). The pattern on a nekomimis fur depends on the breed of cat their cat half is, and nekomimi of different breeds are usually fiercly competitive at best, and aggresivly territorial at worst.

Nekomimi Racial Traits
- +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength: Nekomimi are graceful and agile, but usually smaller and weaker then a human
- Medium: As medium creatures, nekomimi have no special bonuses or penalties due to size.
- Nekomimi base land speed is 30ft
- Low-Light vision: A nekomimi can see twice as far as a human in low-light conditions. They retain the the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
- Scent: A nekomimi's keen sense of smell grants then the scent special quality.
- Sharp Nails: While they don't possess proper claws, a nekomimis nails are strong and sharp enough to be dangerous. At their option, a nekomimi may deal leathal damage with their unarmed strikes with no penalty to their attack role. When dealing leathal damage, a nekomimi's unarmed strike is considered a blugeoning, piercing, and slashing weapon.
- +2 racial bonus to balance, climb, and jump checks: Nekomimi's naturally athletic and their tail gives them a superb sense of balance
- +2 racial bonus to spot and listen checks: A nekomimi's senses are far sharper then those of a human
- Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Langauges: Elven, Gnoll, Gnome, and Sylvan. Nekomimi are native to forested areas and tend to learn the languages of the creatures who live there.

As for the half dragon, heres the savage progression for them, enjoy

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a

[Miles Invictus]

Half-Dragon is +3 LA. Dragon Disciple's capstone gives the Half-Dragon template. What you can do is let the player take levels of Dragon Disciple. When they take their third level of Dragon Disciple, replace those levels with the Half-Dragon template, adjusting stats accordingly (if you want to increase durability, you could let him keep the hit points). This keeps the player on par with the rest of the party, but still lets him play the character he wants to play.

If Catfolk are that bad of an LA +1 race, just treat them as LA 0. It won't affect things that much, especially as Monks aren't very powerful.

[TheOOB]

If Catfolk are that bad of an LA +1 race, just treat them as LA 0. It won't affect things that much, especially as Monks aren't very powerful.

Catfolk have a net +6 ability modifier, +1 natural armor, and 40ft movement speed. Their caught between too goof for LA +0, and too bad for LA +1.

Also, the dragon disciple class is a)for sorcerers and bards, and b)makes them miss out on 10 more levels of monk, making the class even more worthless.

[AtomicKitKat]

Catfolk are actually one of the few LA+1 races that are worth it(not as twink-tastic as Goliaths, but better than Planetouched).

Half-Dragon doesn't give d12, it jacks the die size up by 1. Doesn't matter in this case though, since you have no Racial HD to speak of.

You won't get the wings either, so it's really not worth it(Frankly, I'd drop it to LA+2 for anyone smaller than Large. Heck, I'd drop it to LA+2 across the board, due to the limited use of breath weapon and other stuff).

The player should just go straight Catfolk if they want to be a Monk. The +Str and +Con help to mitigate some of the Monk's innate problems, but you're still taking a class that depends on levels for its abilities(in the same way that Spellcasters need every level for access to better spells), with very few things that raise those abilities outside of actual levels in the class.

That being said, take the total number of stats, divide them by the LA(4), and distribute evenly.

Total stats: Str +8, Con +2, Dex +4, Int +2, Cha +4

L1 Str +2, Con +1, Dex +1, Cha +1, Energy Immunity(from Dragon), Breath Weapon(half strength), NA+1, 2 claws(1d3), Darkvision 60', Low Light Vision, Immunities to paralysis/sleep.

L2 Str +2, Dex +1, Int +1, Cha +1, +5 feet movement, NA+1, bite(1d4)

L3 Str +2, Con +1, Dex +1, Cha +1, Breath Weapon(full strength), NA+1, 2 claws(1d4)

L4 Str +2, Dex +1, Int +1, Cha +1, +5 feet movement(so you hit 40' base), NA+1, bite(1d6)

[Tengu]

Nevermind the crunch - the sole concept of a half-dragon, half-catfolk was so fanboi and Mary-Suesque that my brain almost exploded.

[Kioran]

Apart from the hideeous fluff, Half Dragon is noit that good for Monks anyway. Catfolk(the most terrible fluff) is. You get Dex, Speed and, most importantly, Natural Armor, which you can juice with monstrous Feats to boost your AC into the stratosphere. Lose the Half Dragon and Play straight monk, or make a Catfolk CheatDuskblade/Barbarian and go into Dragon Disciple. that way, jyou remain somewhat effective with Weapons, have a good speed and can actually do something, getting the Half-Dragon in the process........

[JellyPooga]

...Catfolk(the most terrible fluff)...

I'm just curious...what's so terrible about Catfolk (or Catfolk Monks) fluff?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm just curious...what's so terrible about Catfolk (or Catfolk Monks) fluff?

the 1900 quantum hypothesis by Max Planck that any energy radiating atomic system can theoretically be divided into a number of discrete ‘energy elements’ ε such that each of these energy elements is proportional to the frequency ν with which they each individually radiate energy, as defined by the following formula:

[JellyPooga]

the 1900 quantum hypothesis by Max Planck that any energy radiating atomic system can theoretically be divided into a number of discrete ‘energy elements’ ε such that each of these energy elements is proportional to the frequency ν with which they each individually radiate energy, as defined by the following formula:

Uh.......?

[Zincorium]

Uh.......?

"Every time you bring physics into a discussion about a fantasy setting, God kills a catgirl. Please, think of the catgirls."

Not sure who it's supposed to be attributed to. I'm pretty sure the intent in this case is to kill the hypothetical 'neko neko kawaii!' subject.

[Tengu]

Basically, catfolk are extremely Mary-Suesque (c'mon, it's like a human, but with much greater agility and grace), and are usually (especially if female, but played by a male) the object of wet dreams of their players. Most catfolk tend to act the same way - happy, bouncy but sometimes mischievous for females, and either proud and lonely, or effeminate, for males.

It's nothing bad if someone plays a non-stereotypical catfolk, but it happens rarely.

[Seffbasilisk]

Use physics and a Catfolk immolates somewhere. Hope it's not your PC.


That said, as previously stated, LA+4 will gimp any monk. Catfolk pounce, a feat available to catfolk is delicious for monks however. 1/2 Dragon just isn't good enough. If he really wants to do it, give him the LA, if you start level 5, he'll be a freak with some damn nifty abilities....yet not that great in combat. He wants it, let'm eat the LA.

Or he could buyoff the LA, especially if you let him do each LA seperatly.

[Kioran]

I'm just curious...what's so terrible about Catfolk (or Catfolk Monks) fluff?

I´ll elaborate. Please note this is my personal opinion. I think that Catfolk look quite ridiculous and I can envision few cases in which Catfolk effectively prevent any real serioud atmosphere. the whole race is either aimed at a sexualized or a ???? / "Kawaii"-hello-Kitty-esque aspect. For that matter, I don´t like any humanoid animal races. They detract from the Character too easily by introducing some over-exaggerated Animal aspect.
I also don´t quite understand why anything out there needs to be much moire powerful than the ordinary human, and races that continually outstrip humans just for the hell of it tick me off as well, so that is the third thing going against them

[AtomicKitKat]

I also don´t quite understand why anything out there needs to be much moire powerful than the ordinary human, and races that continually outstrip humans just for the hell of it tick me off as well, so that is the third thing going against them

You're kidding right? Practically every edition gave humans lots of "perks" to make up for their "unspecialness" and lack of lifespan. Whether it was racial "classes"(old school Level Adjustments for Elves and Dwarves), arbitrary caps and limitations on class levels, or even a Bonus Feat/Skills, it's been there all the time. Personally, the desire to elevate Humans above all other creatures ticks me off.:smalltongue:

[Argent]

Basically, catfolk are extremely Mary-Suesque (c'mon, it's like a human, but with much greater agility and grace), and are usually (especially if female, but played by a male) the object of wet dreams of their players. Most catfolk tend to act the same way - happy, bouncy but sometimes mischievous for females, and either proud and lonely, or effeminate, for males.

It's nothing bad if someone plays a non-stereotypical catfolk, but it happens rarely.

Question: where does the "Mary Sue" reference come from? I get the general gist of it, just curious how the term came about.

[Bassetking]

The More You Know! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue)

[delguidance]

Thanks for all the help. I find Atomickitkat's suggestion of treating the LA like levels to be taken to be most helpful.

We'll see how the player pulls it off. I hope I'm surprised. Honestly though I wonder what he expects from making a character like this. Maybe I don't watch enough anime.

[BRC]

I refer to this character type as a Unicycle character, they pick some obscure racial combination because they think its too "boring" to play a plain ol' human/dwarf/elf/halfling. And so you end up with a 5 person group with 10 /'s between them. I call it a Unicycle because its the equivilent of turning down somthing practical (like a bicycle, or a character that dosn't hurt your brain with their race) in return for somthing awkward (Like a unicycle, or in this case a dragon/catfolk) for the purpose of being different.

[Breaon]

I refer to this character type as a Unicycle character, they pick some obscure racial combination because they think its too "boring" to play a plain ol' human/dwarf/elf/halfling. And so you end up with a 5 person group with 10 /'s between them. I call it a Unicycle because its the equivilent of turning down somthing practical (like a bicycle, or a character that dosn't hurt your brain with their race) in return for somthing awkward (Like a unicycle, or in this case a dragon/catfolk) for the purpose of being different.


And some people don't mind being inefficient for the sake of role-playing something different.

[Jayabalard]

And some people don't mind being inefficient for the sake of role-playing something different.note that he didn't say a single word about efficiency, or optimization, or anything else like that... he just said "awkward" while pointing out that being different for the sake of being different has nothing to do with roleplaying.

[BRC]

And some people don't mind being inefficient for the sake of role-playing something different.

Yeah I know, its just somthing that can get on my nerves, especially if they RP it exactly like any other character. I'm all for people being different races in order to expand their roleplay ((For example, a Catfolk who hates being dirty and likes to play with weaker enemies instead of just finishing them off)). But making an obscure racial combination just for the purpose of having one gets on my nerves a little.


note that he didn't say a single word about efficiency, or optimization, or anything else like that... he just said "awkward" while pointing out that being different for the sake of being different has nothing to do with roleplaying.

yup, and personally Ive never really been a fan of the whole "What class/racial combination will optimize my stats".Ive always tended to lean more towards a character that I just think would be intresting to play.

[Kioran]

You're kidding right? Practically every edition gave humans lots of "perks" to make up for their "unspecialness" and lack of lifespan. Whether it was racial "classes"(old school Level Adjustments for Elves and Dwarves), arbitrary caps and limitations on class levels, or even a Bonus Feat/Skills, it's been there all the time. Personally, the desire to elevate Humans above all other creatures ticks me off.:smalltongue:

Oh - they get good crunch allright, never contested that. They have powerful versatility with no drawbacks, which is indeed very useful. That´s evident by the love they get, even on the Character Optimizaton boards. What ticks me of to no end is that the fluff always puts humans at disadvantage(except for Halflings, but I don´t play them anyway. Same with anything else under 5ft. . Incidentally, the small races in Core all have useful crunch as well and are very viable for some class choices).

I don´t know, but in books and stories the always come of as "Yes they can do a lot, but whatever they do, Elves or Dwarves respectively do better". And then you introduce Non-Core Races which are, of course, even more powerful. They may have LA.......BUT THEY`RE BORN THAT WAY.
So that race consists of NPCs with an ECL of 2 or 3 whoch easily rip lvl 1 Humans to shreds - Yeah thanks.
Same with warforged - of course they don´t make better characters - but their weakest still wade through several normal human commoners.

The good thing is this is a very solvable Problem. Simply restrict available Material, because the more you have, the more colorful, glaring, ugly and inconsistent your world will be. Much like Diablo II - better crunch, but the fluff was atrocious.

[Miles Invictus]

Also, the dragon disciple class is a)for sorcerers and bards, and b)makes them miss out on 10 more levels of monk, making the class even more worthless.

You didn't read my post thoroughly. What I suggested was letting the player take levels in Dragon Disciple to simulate a Half-Dragon below ECL 3. Once the player has three levels of Dragon Disciple, those levels are replaced by the Half-Dragon template. Since Dragon Disciple's capstone is becoming a Half-Dragon, the player doesn't need to take any more levels of Dragon Disciple. It keeps the player balanced with the rest of the party, and allows him to decide how and when to advance his racial abilities.

[Damionte]

1/2 catfolk, 1/2 red dragon someone's deep into furry fantasies ey?

I like Mile's suggestion though. That seems to work out well for what you're trying to do.

[AtomicKitKat]

I don´t know, but in books and stories the always come of as "Yes they can do a lot, but whatever they do, Elves or Dwarves respectively do better".

And yet despite being innately superior Magic Users, with literally millenia to hone their craft, Elves were stuck with level limits where Humans had none. I don't really see the problem with Dwarves being superior jewellers, or Elves being better fletchers. I just think of it as being like comparing an expert craftsman with the guy who just does it as a hobby. Except in this case, the "hobbyist" is the Human expert.


And then you introduce Non-Core Races which are, of course, even more powerful. They may have LA.......BUT THEY`RE BORN THAT WAY.
So that race consists of NPCs with an ECL of 2 or 3 whoch easily rip lvl 1 Humans to shreds - Yeah thanks.
Same with warforged - of course they don´t make better characters - but their weakest still wade through several normal human commoners.

You seem to be missing the point that it's precisely because they are ECL 2 or 3, vs a level 1 Human(ECL 1), that they rip him to shreds. Bring the human up a level or 2, and suddenly, the difference in power levels is blurred.

[Kioran]

And yet despite being innately superior Magic Users, with literally millenia to hone their craft, Elves were stuck with level limits where Humans had none. I don't really see the problem with Dwarves being superior jewellers, or Elves being better fletchers. I just think of it as being like comparing an expert craftsman with the guy who just does it as a hobby. Except in this case, the "hobbyist" is the Human expert.

You seem to be missing the point that it's precisely because they are ECL 2 or 3, vs a level 1 Human(ECL 1), that they rip him to shreds. Bring the human up a level or 2, and suddenly, the difference in power levels is blurred.

You come from the crunchy side of things, and the crunch is allright, I never complained, since it´s usually PC class levels > racial boni > all HD or NPC classes (except royal HD, Dragon and Outsider).
That usually puts humans of the same ECL with PC-class levels at an advantage, so there´s no complaint here. With Characters, it rather works to Exotic races Disadvantage, since almost all classes except for the martial can´t afford to lose class features.

BUT - now we have the fluff. These beings are born with an increased ECL. According to DMG the majority of Humans consists of lvl 1 Commoners (CR 1/3) or similiar low-lvl NPC-Classes (I´ve built a lvl 5 commoner as the mayor of a small village in my current campaign, and his stats (Point Buy 15) and fighting capabilities are nothing short of depressing).
Beings that are born with higher ECLs would lay into these ECL 1/2 to 2 NPC-class humans with a vengeance. They have naturally higher ECL, so their weakest are several steps ahead of the majority of humans.
Unless these races breed much slower, there is little reason why they wouldn´t come to replace the humans and other core Races, given time.......

Among the core races, the fluff just states that there is nothing the humans are best at, but a llot at which they are number 2 or 3. This is worse than it sounds - it just means that an organized community of Gnomes, Elves, and Dwarves is several times more effective if they distribute the tasks cleverly. Allthough this even makes sense, fluff-wise, there is this Questing: Again, why do humans even exist?
There is one thing they are wornged in, something in which there role as number two(or number 17 according to many authors) makes no sense: Humans should be, among the core classes, the masters of war.
Dwarves are to slow, Elves to frail, Gnomes and Halflings don´t count, and Orcs are too unorganized. A Human army should be a thing of beauty and terror.
That is until the army of LA+3 Wereooze Catfolk come and have a stroll through their ranks, throwing broken, mangled bodies left and right.

Point is, these more powerful races should be used very sparingly, or they introduce inconsistency into your game world......

[PinkysBrain]

Of the civilized races humans tend to be said to be the best in one thing actually ... breeding.

[AtomicKitKat]

Of the civilized races humans tend to be said to be the best in one thing actually ... breeding.

QFT. Humans breed like freaking cockroaches. Smack them down, and another village springs up. Dragons have maybe 3 clutches in their entire lifetime, with each clutch happening roughly once in 300 years(and maybe a couple dozen eggs each clutch). Elves probably breed one generation every 100 years or so, Dwarves every 50. Human generations go anywhere from 14-25 years(and 25 years is pretty damn old for the medieval time most campaigns want to be in). Of all the "common" races, Kobolds, Goblins, and maybe Halflings might breed faster. All of them are Small. And generally agreed as being ECL 1/2.

[Argent]

The More You Know! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue)

Ah HA! Thanks for the heads-up.

[Person_Man]

WotC already has a level adjusted version of Half Dragon right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a).

As others have mentioned, you could use LA buyoff.

Half Dragon is a pretty weak template. But if you thumb through Races of the Dragon, there are various workarounds. Any race can become "Dragon Blooded" by spending a feat, giving them access to a lot of draconic feats and prestige classes. Kobolds can gain the dragon type with the Dragonwraught feat. The Dragon Devotee (5 levels) prestige class is quite good, has very easy entry requirements, and gives you the Draconic Template.

Now that Barbarians can get Pounce at 1st level in exchange for Fast Movement (Complete Champion), Catfolk are a a lot less useful.

And as we all know, Monks are one of the weakest base classes around.

Are you open to suggestions with similar fluff but much better crunch, or is this what you want to do?