Grappler Caster Build Input/Optimization

[PeteNutButter]

I've been tossing this idea around a lot and there are several guides on grappling, but I wanted to take a spin at this myself. I've included lengthy spoiled discussions on my decisions, and would like input from the community. This is for an AL character.

While there are several ways to take advantage of grappling, many involving teammates, this build is focused on being relatively self-sufficient in both its control and damage output. The plan is to park spells on top of the grapplee, moving him in and out of it on my turn.
The two best spells for this are the Create Bonfire cantrip and Cloud of Daggers. Both of these spells trigger damage when a creature either enters the space or starts its turn in the hazard.
Cloud of Daggers scales incredibly well for 2d4 per level, with no save.
What the character needs to be viable:
-Decent AC/HP, otherwise they'll just kill you.
-Extra attack, doubling the number of grapple attempts per turn
-Expertise in Athletics and high str, duh
-Con Save Proficieny
-All of the above without giving up too much spell progression

While Cloud of Daggers is available to many classes, I narrowed it down to the "gishier" (Bard, Warlock) as I plan to be up front and personal. Bard offers expertise in athletics so its a no brainer. While the lore bard is a popular class for grapplers, I think having extra attack meaning one more chance at grappling would be just as if not better than the limited use of cutting words. I'm going with Valor Bard for now, but I'm open to counterarguments for Lore Bard.

Valor Bard has pretty much everything I need in one package and prevents the need for MCing, putting me behind in spell slots. It lets me have extra attack without sinking 5 levels into a class with little or no spell slots. To make this character live, I think they'll need a single level in fighter for con save and heavy armor. I am also considering a Fighter/Bard/any other caster, or Fighter/Rogue(Expertise)/Any other caster.
Any race that would give a boost to str would be viable. Goliath would be good choice due to his carrying capacity boost, but I chose V Human for the feat. Considering Tavern Brawler, but open to suggestions.

That's as min-max-y as it gets. Really could probably manage to go with a lower cha if I don't want a penalty to certain saves.

It'll be a pretty dull character levels 1-3. I can go sword and board or start to use Tavern Brawler.

Bash with shield as improvised weapon, initiate grapple as bonus action. If they don't escape the grapple on their turn, past level 3 I then cast Cloud of Daggers and drag them into it, triggering the 4d4 damage. On their turn they'll take another 4d4, and most likely try and escape the grapple instead of attack me... because they are in a cloud of daggers. That is very enemy/DM dependent though.

All in all that damage at level 4 could be 1d4+3 round one, then 8d4 round 2, then if it continues I would deal the 1d4+3 and the 8d4 from moving them in and out of the cloud on my turn. The damage scales incredibly with every spell level adding 4d4 (2d4+2d4) a round.

At level 10 casting a 5th level Cloud of Daggers deals 10d4, triggering that twice a round, is 50 damage, and that's just movement (after set up). The character could still attack or even cast another spell.
After the character gets extra attack, MCing out of bard is a solid option. A single level of sorcerer gives shield spell (can't fail a concentration save if you never get hit). 3 levels would get the always useful metamagic. Going back to fighter for another level could get the tasty action surge, but cost spell progression.
Do I need Warcaster for adv on those con saves? I started tavern brawler so I could both deal damage and grapple, but it isn't mandatory.
Should I dump fighter, and go medium armor straight bard?
Go Defense or Duelist Fighting style? I'm thinking Defense, but that damage bonus could help.
Anyone have a better class(es) to fit this?
Any other AL legal suggestions?

Thanks everyone.

[MrStabby]

So a few thoughts not properly thought through:

1) Consider shield master. Shoving someone into the desired effect is pretty solid + you can knock people prone to give allies advantage as an alternative move. Still works with expertise I think.

2) Consider a cleric + rogue. Heavy armour right away and grappling someone whilst inside spirit guardians is sweet + it is a solid spell anyway. Take tavern brawler and smack people with your holy symbol as an improvised weapon

[PeteNutButter]

So a few thoughts not properly thought through:

1) Consider shield master. Shoving someone into the desired effect is pretty solid + you can knock people prone to give allies advantage as an alternative move. Still works with expertise I think.

2) Consider a cleric + rogue. Heavy armour right away and grappling someone whilst inside spirit guardians is sweet + it is a solid spell anyway. Take tavern brawler and smack people with your holy symbol as an improvised weapon

1.) I thought about shield master, but grappling just seems more effective, since they can't just up and walk away on their turn. Plus with grapple I can trigger these spells on my turn, by dragging them in and out like some kind of a bond villain, in addition to damage they'll take at the start of their turn. Did I mention he will be Lawful Evil? Hehe

2.) Spirit Guardians is great, but since it works all around the caster it'd probably pair better with sentinel. Hopefully a cleric will be in the party and can stand close enough to the grappled target to pile on the damage. As for the grappler, 3d8 save for half is ultimately a lot less than 6d4x2, no save. That's 13.5(save half) or 30. Damage that doesn't cost your action is always good though.

[Hrugner]

Maybe grab sentinel and (the likely banned at your table, but still) tunnel fighter as your fighting style. Then you can grab and drag many people into your spell effect and keep them all there through sentinel/tunnel fighter attacks. It lets you hold more than the standard two people in the spell effect but I'm not sure how high you can stack people in a five foot square.

However, what you really want is a fast horse(phantom steed I think?) and the spike growth spell to make your grappler shine. Just grab your target by the leg, plant his face on the ground, and run around in a circle 200 ft a round doing 80d4 damage. Then do whatever it was you wanted to do with your actual action.

[Foxhound438]

Personally I would recommend lore bard since that can get you enlarge/reduce at 6. You'd need 5 levels in a martial class to get 2x attack, which makes it bad early on, but huge creatures turning your character off seems pretty bad as well.

you get bonfire at 1/1, so not having cloud of daggers until TL 8 isn't super terrible.

Edit: looked at the EEPC and realized bard only gets thunderclap from that. Eh, oh well.

[Iguanodon]

Personally I would recommend lore bard since that can get you enlarge/reduce at 6. You'd need 5 levels in a martial class to get 2x attack, which makes it bad early on, but huge creatures turning your character off seems pretty bad as well.

you get bonfire at 1/1, so not having cloud of daggers until TL 8 isn't super terrible.

Lore bard also gets you cutting words, which could be great for maintaining grapples. Losing extra attack is an issue, though. You could conceivably use Shocking Grasp for your attacks if you want, which might not be bad against armored opponents.

[CaptAl]

Valor is a solid choice if you don't want to lose caster slots. Lore is better overall, maybe add some Paladin levels to get extra attack with your Lore Bard to mitigate the lost caster levels. Plus, the saving throw bonus certainly doesn't hurt. Paladin 7 (OotA)/ (Lore) Bard 13 would be solid IMO.

[PeteNutButter]

Maybe grab sentinel and (the likely banned at your table, but still) tunnel fighter as your fighting style. Then you can grab and drag many people into your spell effect and keep them all there through sentinel/tunnel fighter attacks. It lets you hold more than the standard two people in the spell effect but I'm not sure how high you can stack people in a five foot square.

However, what you really want is a fast horse(phantom steed I think?) and the spike growth spell to make your grappler shine. Just grab your target by the leg, plant his face on the ground, and run around in a circle 200 ft a round doing 80d4 damage. Then do whatever it was you wanted to do with your actual action.

It's Adventurer's League so no tunnel fighting. The spike growth trick seems a bit genius, although I'm not sure how you avoid taking the damage yourself?



Personally I would recommend lore bard since that can get you enlarge/reduce at 6. You'd need 5 levels in a martial class to get 2x attack, which makes it bad early on, but huge creatures turning your character off seems pretty bad as well.

you get bonfire at 1/1, so not having cloud of daggers until TL 8 isn't super terrible.

It'd be faster to just get 3 levels of sorcerer in there at some point than waste the only full caster extra attack subclass on picking up a 2nd level spell. The problem with casting enlarge on myself though, is I won't be able to cast another hazard spell to really utilize the grapple. A teammate could cast a hazard spell, but then at that point a teammate could have just cast enlarge on me.

The character wouldn't be useless at other things, just not quite as good. He could still sword and board tank against a huge mob, or fall back on being a near full caster.


Lore bard also gets you cutting words, which could be great for maintaining grapples. Losing extra attack is an issue, though. You could conceivably use Shocking Grasp for your attacks if you want, which might not be bad against armored opponents.

This is the true reason to consider lore bard, but the limited uses turned me off from it. If I miss the grapple on my turn, I could in theory use cutting words to make me win, or just try again via extra attack. Since sometimes the contested check will be so far off, you won't even be able to fix it with cutting words, while extra attack is a no resource cost ability. Extra attack is purely better when initiating grapple.

Now using it to prevent them from winning the escape once you already have them is nice, but I'll be looking at only having this ability available 3/day. Depending on how often you lose, and by how much this might be a enough. Its hard to say. A perfect grappler build at level 20 would likely have both, but in the meantime extra attack seems more valuable. The difference between you failing to initiate a grapple, compared to them being able to escape is massive, since you essentially had them waste their action with the latter.

Talking to my friends, I may be in luck as one is planning to play a warlock (HEX!!!), and another a lore bard himself.

[Hrugner]

It's Adventurer's League so no tunnel fighting. The spike growth trick seems a bit genius, although I'm not sure how you avoid taking the damage yourself?


You'd drag them along the ground next to you with you and your mount being just out of the growth, alternately you could have a flying mount of some sort and cruise just above the pokey mess. Of course, it's just piercing damage and I'm not even sure if it's supposed to be magical, so it's not without its faults.

[PoeticDwarf]

I've been tossing this idea around a lot and there are several guides on grappling, but I wanted to take a spin at this myself. I've included lengthy spoiled discussions on my decisions, and would like input from the community. This is for an AL character.

While there are several ways to take advantage of grappling, many involving teammates, this build is focused on being relatively self-sufficient in both its control and damage output. The plan is to park spells on top of the grapplee, moving him in and out of it on my turn.
The two best spells for this are the Create Bonfire cantrip and Cloud of Daggers. Both of these spells trigger damage when a creature either enters the space or starts its turn in the hazard.
Cloud of Daggers scales incredibly well for 2d4 per level, with no save.
What the character needs to be viable:
-Decent AC/HP, otherwise they'll just kill you.
-Extra attack, doubling the number of grapple attempts per turn
-Expertise in Athletics and high str, duh
-Con Save Proficieny
-All of the above without giving up too much spell progression

While Cloud of Daggers is available to many classes, I narrowed it down to the "gishier" (Bard, Warlock) as I plan to be up front and personal. Bard offers expertise in athletics so its a no brainer. While the lore bard is a popular class for grapplers, I think having extra attack meaning one more chance at grappling would be just as if not better than the limited use of cutting words. I'm going with Valor Bard for now, but I'm open to counterarguments for Lore Bard.

Valor Bard has pretty much everything I need in one package and prevents the need for MCing, putting me behind in spell slots. It lets me have extra attack without sinking 5 levels into a class with little or no spell slots. To make this character live, I think they'll need a single level in fighter for con save and heavy armor. I am also considering a Fighter/Bard/any other caster, or Fighter/Rogue(Expertise)/Any other caster.
Any race that would give a boost to str would be viable. Goliath would be good choice due to his carrying capacity boost, but I chose V Human for the feat. Considering Tavern Brawler, but open to suggestions.

That's as min-max-y as it gets. Really could probably manage to go with a lower cha if I don't want a penalty to certain saves.

It'll be a pretty dull character levels 1-3. I can go sword and board or start to use Tavern Brawler.

Bash with shield as improvised weapon, initiate grapple as bonus action. If they don't escape the grapple on their turn, past level 3 I then cast Cloud of Daggers and drag them into it, triggering the 4d4 damage. On their turn they'll take another 4d4, and most likely try and escape the grapple instead of attack me... because they are in a cloud of daggers. That is very enemy/DM dependent though.

All in all that damage at level 4 could be 1d4+3 round one, then 8d4 round 2, then if it continues I would deal the 1d4+3 and the 8d4 from moving them in and out of the cloud on my turn. The damage scales incredibly with every spell level adding 4d4 (2d4+2d4) a round.

At level 10 casting a 5th level Cloud of Daggers deals 10d4, triggering that twice a round, is 50 damage, and that's just movement (after set up). The character could still attack or even cast another spell.
After the character gets extra attack, MCing out of bard is a solid option. A single level of sorcerer gives shield spell (can't fail a concentration save if you never get hit). 3 levels would get the always useful metamagic. Going back to fighter for another level could get the tasty action surge, but cost spell progression.
Do I need Warcaster for adv on those con saves? I started tavern brawler so I could both deal damage and grapple, but it isn't mandatory.
Should I dump fighter, and go medium armor straight bard?
Go Defense or Duelist Fighting style? I'm thinking Defense, but that damage bonus could help.
Anyone have a better class(es) to fit this?
Any other AL legal suggestions?

Thanks everyone.

Seems solid, most suggestions you could try are already said