Multi Class Paladin suggestion?

[WereRabbitz]

So level 4 nearly 5 Ancient Paladin with some pretty nice stats below We started as a group of 5 people Paladin, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, and 1 player quit due to RL Problems and another might quitting as well. So now were down to the Cleric, the Sorcerer, and my Paladin.
str: 18
dex: 11
Con 17
int:10
wis:13
Cha 15

Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting
Feat: Lucky!
Race: Half-Elf
Background: Entertainer

I started out going for a Halberd build, but the last 2 or 3 sessions i'm the main tank. Our last fight was us 3 vs 5 bugbears and i ended up fending them off using a hallway, shield, and SoF buff while the cleric and sorcerer finished them off.

So now i'm considering splashing some Fighter or Ranger into my build. I currently carry Halberd, Longsword, Shield, and Javalins around and want to work towards using a 2hander for clearing random mobs, and use sword and board for more dangerous encounters.

WHen push comes to shove i want to favor the defensive now because the cleric and sorc can deal the damage if I can just keep them safe.

I was thinking splashing 8 levels of fighter would get me another fighting style (Defensive), action surge, second wind, extra ability score, ect... and maybe 4 of ranger for the horde ability and a few others.. or maybe just 12 levels of fighter to compliment my paladin and give me good boost to defense.

ANy suggestions? I don't feel the Paladin is tanky enough for the last 10 levels and wanted to improve on that, but still goto level 8 to get the magic aura and ability point.

Thanks

[Firechanter]

Wow, some lovely stats you rolled up there!
I'd take my next ASI to bump up CON and CHA by +1 each.

You have all sorts of options available to you. If you want to be more tanky, you might want to look at Barbarian (Bear Totem).
I'd stay away from Polearms unless you and your DM have an understanding that you will get your hands on suitable magic weapons. If you just roll up your treasure randomly, swords are your best bet.

A great thematic fit for Ancients would of course be Druid or maybe Nature Cleric, and you can even afford it with your 13 Wis.

But be that as it may, Ancients has some really great features, particularly the Aura upgrade at level 7, you should definitely take that. And as you're level 7, you can stick around to pick up the ASI at 8.
You get the idea, it's difficult to find a breakpoint.

[PeteNutButter]

Paladin is likely the "tankiest" class in 5e. Low Levels are tough to stay alive for anyone, and the DM may be throwing a bit more at your party than you can handle.

If you stay in Paladin to level 8, you are only 1 level away from level 3 paladin spells (which can be very strong). If your there till 9 you are one level away from a solid aura of fear immunity. Level 11 is amazing adding permanent 1d8 to all your attacks. 12 is another ASI. 13 is level 4 spells.

Once you are that deep in paladin the opportunity cost of MCing is pretty steep. At any single point in there taking first level in any class is probably weaker (especially in terms of defense) than continuing paladin levels.

If you really want to MC, 1 level of sorcerer gives the ever strong shield spell to boost AC. Just 1 level of fighter gives you a fighting style. Taking more than 4 levels in a class that grants extra attack is very bad, as level 5 is a dead level (since you already have extra attack from paladin).

I'd stick to Paladin. Not only can he tank very well, he can also self heal like a boss (aura of vitality!).

[R.Shackleford]

Well, if you aren't keen on getting to Ancients 9 I would just go lore bard. Yeah you drop your HD but your ability to heal will keep up with anything you should be dealing with.

What you get however is...

Expertise (Athletics) (trip tank)
Jack of All Trades
Bardic Inspiration
Cutting Words (great when tanking)
More spells

You could go Paladin 5/Lore Bard 3/Barbarian 3 eventually and get some really sweet tanking and almost an autowin with grapples/trips/pushes.

[PeteNutButter]

Well, if you aren't keen on getting to Ancients 9 I would just go lore bard. Yeah you drop your HD but your ability to heal will keep up with anything you should be dealing with.

What you get however is...

Expertise (Athletics) (trip tank)
Jack of All Trades
Bardic Inspiration
Cutting Words (great when tanking)
More spells

You could go Paladin 5/Lore Bard 3/Barbarian 3 eventually and get some really sweet tanking and almost an autowin with grapples/trips/pushes.

Paladin 6 is one of the best class abilities in the game. I'd highly suggest getting that +2(+3 if you boost cha+con next ASI) to all saves... for your team too if they stick to you.

[R.Shackleford]

Paladin 6 is one of the best class abilities in the game. I'd highly suggest getting that +2(+3 if you boost cha+con next ASI) to all saves... for your team too if they stick to you.

Oh personally I wouldn't go out of Paladin if I wanted to tank.

But OP seems to really want to MC and Lore Bard is a good option that I've used.

[coredump]

I concur.... for what you want I would stick with paladin.

[WereRabbitz]

Oh personally I wouldn't go out of Paladin if I wanted to tank.

But OP seems to really want to MC and Lore Bard is a good option that I've used.

That is why I was considering the Paladin 8/ Fighter 12 maybe?

Fighter 12:
Action Surge, Second Wind, Fighting style (protection), Indomitable, 2 extra ASI's and at level 12 i would get 3 attacks.
This would also give me proficiency with Strength and Constitution on top of my paladin Wisdom/Charisma.

Battle Master: which 12 levels mean I get 4 of the 6 bonus Bonus Maneuver dies and upgraded to 1d10.

Paladin 8:
Aura Protection/Courage, Lay of Hands (Emergency Healing, Poison removal..), max Level 1 & 2 spells for some light healing/buffing. Fighting Style Great Weapon
Disease immunity, shield of faith....


I would now be proficient in the con stat that i need to keep my concentration with shield of faith lol.


What made me consider this option was we got trapped in a room with 5 bug bears and through using every dirty trick in the book we managed to kill all 5 of them and we were very close to dieing because I wasn't working towards having to tank like this since our Shield Fighter with Battle Master & Protection FS usually did the job. SO we my spells overlapping the cleric and us missing a fighter I was thinking of having my character focus on the PHysical combat more to balance out the caster heavy group. The Cleric is hefty, but the caster has had some bad HP rolls and can't take very much.

If staying true and going to level 20 with paladin as a tank is still a good way to go then i'm all ears to suggestions of what i should focus on/take along the way.
I've basically told the DM when a heavy hitting creature rolls a 20 to just use one of my lucky's to reroll it lol.

I was keeping a 2hander around to help with low hp annoying targets (since i have that FS i took early on before the fighter left anyway...)
and using shield/sword for sticky/dangerous/unknown situations.

Thanks for the response guys/gals their all great!

[PeteNutButter]

That is why I was considering the Paladin 8/ Fighter 12 maybe?

Fighter 12:
Action Surge, Second Wind, Fighting style (protection), Indomitable, 2 extra ASI's and at level 12 i would get 3 attacks.
This would also give me proficiency with Strength and Constitution on top of my paladin Wisdom/Charisma.

Battle Master: which 12 levels mean I get 4 of the 6 bonus Bonus Maneuver dies and upgraded to 1d10.

Paladin 8:
Aura Protection/Courage, Lay of Hands (Emergency Healing, Poison removal..), max Level 1 & 2 spells for some light healing/buffing. Fighting Style Great Weapon
Disease immunity, shield of faith....


I would now be proficient in the con stat that i need to keep my concentration with shield of faith lol.


What made me consider this option was we got trapped in a room with 5 bug bears and through using every dirty trick in the book we managed to kill all 5 of them and we were very close to dieing because I wasn't working towards having to tank like this since our Shield Fighter with Battle Master & Protection FS usually did the job. SO we my spells overlapping the cleric and us missing a fighter I was thinking of having my character focus on the PHysical combat more to balance out the caster heavy group. The Cleric is hefty, but the caster has had some bad HP rolls and can't take very much.

If staying true and going to level 20 with paladin as a tank is still a good way to go then i'm all ears to suggestions of what i should focus on/take along the way.
I've basically told the DM when a heavy hitting creature rolls a 20 to just use one of my lucky's to reroll it lol.

I was keeping a 2hander around to help with low hp annoying targets (since i have that FS i took early on before the fighter left anyway...)
and using shield/sword for sticky/dangerous/unknown situations.

Thanks for the response guys/gals their all great!

Multiclassing does not grant you proficiency in any additional saving throws. What you gain is explicitly laid out on page 164 of the phb.

If you did gain other saves, most people would be sure to take 3 different classes to start with and pick them all up. The best way to gain con save proficiency is to take resilient con as your next feat, works since your con is odd. Also consider warcaster as a feat if you have trouble maintaining concentration, it gives advantage.

Taking fighter to level 11 is the only real big damage boost... at which point you could be lvl 19 paladin and deal a lot more damage via improved smite and smiting. High level paladin smite spells as well are devastating. If you really want the Battle Master Features consider taking fighter no higher than level 4, or just take the Martial Adept feat. First level in fighter is enough to give you a fighting style, 2 is action surge.

[Malifice]

Stick with Paladin for 2 more levels. Do not pass go, do not collect 100 bucks.

Extra attack is online next level. It doubles your combat effectiveness. Nothing else you take comes close.

Divine grace comes next level. Its among the best abilities in the game. Youre 2 levels away. Dont delay it now. Great for tanking saves, and party buffing.

From there (to fit the ancients/ entertainer fluff) and for raw power, I suggest the Lore Bard. Grab yourself a ton of profficiencies, cutting words, massive party buffs via bardic inspiration and jack of all trades (which adds to initiative). Oh - and expertise in Althletics and Perception never hurt a tanky Paladin.

Also - the spell slots will make sure you can smite all day long.

I'd go 10 levels in Bard (for the ability to pilfer 2 spells of your choice) and sweet spell slots, and dip Fighter (BM) for 4 levels (bonus feat, action surge, superiority dice, extra fighting style).

Its arguably one of the best MC in the game. You'll be the best (or close to it) in the party at skills, weapon and armor proficiencies, supreme nova strikes, tanking, fightering, defences and saves, healing, buffing, buffing and more buffing, being the party face, packs 7th level spell slots from a great and versatile list (plus 4 spells of your choice). Works on short rest and long rest mechanics, so good to kick ass no matter how long the adventuring day.

It has it all.

[PeteNutButter]

Stick with Paladin for 2 more levels. Do not pass go, do not collect 100 bucks.

Extra attack is online next level. It doubles your combat effectiveness. Nothing else you take comes close.

Divine grace comes next level. Its among the best abilities in the game. Youre 2 levels away. Dont delay it now. Great for tanking saves, and party buffing.

From there (to fit the ancients/ entertainer fluff) and for raw power, I suggest the Lore Bard. Grab yourself a ton of profficiencies, cutting words, massive party buffs via bardic inspiration and jack of all trades (which adds to initiative). Oh - and expertise in Althletics and Perception never hurt a tanky Paladin.

Also - the spell slots will make sure you can smite all day long.

I'd go 10 levels in Bard (for the ability to pilfer 2 spells of your choice) and sweet spell slots, and dip Fighter (BM) for 4 levels (bonus feat, action surge, superiority dice, extra fighting style).

Its arguably one of the best MC in the game. You'll be the best (or close to it) in the party at skills, weapon and armor proficiencies, supreme nova strikes, tanking, fightering, defences and saves, healing, buffing, buffing and more buffing, being the party face, packs 7th level spell slots from a great and versatile list (plus 4 spells of your choice). Works on short rest and long rest mechanics, so good to kick ass no matter how long the adventuring day.

It has it all.

I like this, but I don't know if Bard is best for him. Lore Bards famously pilfer spells from other classes, but those classes are usually paladin and ranger. Since he is only 3 levels away from level 3 paladin spells it seems silly to take 6 bard levels just to pick up something he could get in his core class in half the time.

As for more smite fodder... Sorcerer would do everything the bard does except the cutting words and jack of all trades. Bardic Inspiration isn't as much use since his allies are both casters. Sorcerer can also quicken, for a quickened GFB/BB with a smite. Or quickened blast spell, buff spell, or cure wounds. Sorcerer also gets shield, amazing for tanks, and haste amazing for all weapon users. Draconic would give him the same hps.

[Specter]

2 levels of Fighter never hurt any Paladin. A second Fighting Style (Defense if you don't have it, GWF if you do) and bonus action healing are good. Action Surge is amazing, not only for the 4 attacks in a given turn, but also for attacking and casting spells when necessary, or attacking and using Lay on Hands on yourself.

[R.Shackleford]

That is why I was considering the Paladin 8/ Fighter 12 maybe?

I wouldn't leave Paladin for Fighter. Fighter doesn't really give you anything that you don't already have.

Nova? Got it.
Consistent weapon DPR? Got it.
Tank? Got it.
Self Healing? Got it.
Attack + Effect? Got it.

Going fighter makes you lose out on spells. Spells that give you smite and cool effects.

Fighter gives you things but nothing that you won't already get.

[WereRabbitz]

Thanks for the good reply's everyone. I'm thinking I will stick to Paladin at the moment although the bard idea sounds appealing since we don't have a rougue for trap checking.

I'm mostly just focused on tanking/supporting the group since the Sorcerer is about to fireball and the cleric's domain is life i'm not overly concerned with spell damage or healing.

Any suggestions for good paths to take along the path?


Thanks

[PeteNutButter]

Thanks for the good reply's everyone. I'm thinking I will stick to Paladin at the moment although the bard idea sounds appealing since we don't have a rogue for trap checking.

I'm mostly just focused on tanking/supporting the group since the Sorcerer is about to fireball and the cleric's domain is life i'm not overly concerned with spell damage or healing.

Any suggestions for good paths to take along the path?
Thanks

Stay paladin like you said. Stick to what you're good at (tanking); don't try and be everything. Pick up the sentinel feat, to prevent enemies from getting away from you, and free attacks on them when the swing at your cleric. Really read all the spells on the paladin spell list, and prepare them wisely.

As you guys reach higher levels you will need healing from your cleric less and less. Encourage him to start casting nasty spells like spirit guardians. A lot of the party versatility should come from your cleric. So by freeing up his spells, he'll be able to open up and fill quite a bit of utility.

Rogues/bards gain no advantage to find traps over any other class except maybe expertise in perception/investigation. With a life cleric and a paladin, you'd probably have little trouble just barreling through any traps and healing up afterwards. Anyways unless your DM is running a specific mod, he'll probably just stop putting in traps for you to disarm, or even take them out altogether. Not your fault as PCs that the rogue left the party, and he shouldn't punish you for not being a role you were never meant to be.

[WereRabbitz]

Stay paladin like you said.....and he shouldn't punish you for not being a role you were never meant to be.

Well said! Thanks for the advice everyone! I'm excited to keep working up the Paladin tree.

I'm thinking the following:

Level 4: Lucky - *Already chosen*

Level 8: Increase Con & Cha stats by +1 (This puts Str, Con, and Cha at all 18)

Level 12: Pick up Sentinel Feat

Level 16: Con +2 (Max 20)

Level 19: Str + 2 (Max 20)

Any other suggestions for feats/abilities?


Thanks!

[PeteNutButter]

Well said! Thanks for the advice everyone! I'm excited to keep working up the Paladin tree.

I'm thinking the following:
Level 4: Lucky - *Already chosen*
Level 8: Increase Con & Cha stats by +1 (This puts Str, Con, and Cha at all 18)
Level 12: Pick up Sentinel Feat
Level 16: Con +2 (Max 20)
Level 19: Str + 2 (Max 20)
Any other suggestions for feats/abilities?
Thanks!

Don't get too set on tanking, in the MMO sense. A tank in D&D needs usually needs to be able to deal significant damage. I'd consider bumping str sooner; sentinel only works if you hit them. You will have the potential of dealing more damage than anyone else in your party. With two attacks dealing 2d8+4 each that's 26 damage, throw in a couple level 4 smites for 5d8 each and you got a total average damage of 71... not counting if you managed to throw in a smite spell, had any magic items, were fighting fiend/undead, or crit. That's just about the same damage as your sorcerer casting a disintegrate spell, but all you have to do is hit the foe's AC (no save).

[Citan]

So level 4 nearly 5 Ancient Paladin with some pretty nice stats below We started as a group of 5 people Paladin, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, and 1 player quit due to RL Problems and another might quitting as well. So now were down to the Cleric, the Sorcerer, and my Paladin.
str: 18 / dex: 11 / Con 17 / int:10 / wis:13 / Cha 15

I started out going for a Halberd build, but the last 2 or 3 sessions i'm the main tank. Our last fight was us 3 vs 5 bugbears and i ended up fending them off using a hallway, shield, and SoF buff while the cleric and sorcerer finished them off.

WHen push comes to shove i want to favor the defensive now because the cleric and sorc can deal the damage if I can just keep them safe.

Hi! How do you do? :)

You net yourself pretty good stats here...
Personnally, from what I see and what you say, I'd stay stick to Paladin the whole way. As "tanking" in the meaning of MMO can be quite difficult, the best way to "tank" in D&d (from what I read and the little bit I experienced myself) is...
1. Keep enemies at bay from squishies at least, draw them to you at best.
2. Reduce enemy chance to damage and damage dealt.
3. Kill as fast as possible.
Either a mix of the three or a big focus on one way.

From what you said, it feels that the third way is not your main focus.
As for the two other aspects, as it stands, Ancients Paladin is arguably the best, standing its ground with pure Barbarian. Why?

1. You get the two best auras of the game: +CHA to saves and magic resistance. At lvl 6/7, they will probably be useful to you only (since you should be much closer to the enemies than your friends). But once you get to lvl 18 there is a good chance you can maintain a formation that allows everyone to benefit from it.

2. You get a nifty damage upgrade at lvl 11, which helps with the 3rd point (since you will still contribute to the whole damage).

3. Moonbeam at lvl 5 and Plant Growth at lvl 9, while not "killer spells", can greatly help you make a soft wall of protection to reduce enemy's will to go up close and personal with your friends.

4. At lvl 9 You get many very useful spells for ensuring party survivability (Aura of Life, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, Revivify) as well as very good buffs (Elemental Weapon, Crusader's Mantle). Although you indeed have a Cleric already for all the "healing" part".

5. At the end of the road, you get the best buff ever (Circle of Power) which, combined with both auras, will make your party feel invincible. And the capstone is very great too.

6. As for control, you already get some good lvl 1 spells such as Command and Compelled Duel which can help focus enemies on you.

7. Multiclass may or not hamper spellcasting progression, but will hamper spell learnt AND potential ASI, which you could use on maxing STR, upping CHA or taking a control feat such as Sentinel or Polearm Master.

WITH ALL THAT SAID, I understand very well that you may want to multiclass, not only for efficiency but also to have fun with new mechanics.

As is, I see 3 ways.
1. Lore Bard (6/10): as other said, it's a pretty nice option. Especially if your main deal is not dealing damage. You could go up to Bard 10 to get many useful spells from Bard either to debuff enemies or buff your party, poaching Conjure Animals at lvl 6, and still get the Circle of Power with lvl 10 Magic Secrets. And you end with same or more spellcasting potency to use on spells or smite, Expertise and Cutting Words to help allies.

2. Sorcerer (6/10): no fear of tiptoeing your friend here. Your Sorcerer levels would allow you to learn spells that complement what your friend know, or focus on control and debuff spells (especially Blindness, Haste and Slow). Your metamagic points would be used on Quicken (emergency cast) or Twin (main use): for example, twinning Shield of Faith for buff, or Compelled Duel to keep two dangerous foes can be very useful. Furthermore, any archetype will provide great benefits. If allowed, the best would be Shadow here since the beast ability would compensate your "good not great" CHA. And you could learn a melee cantrip and combine it with Warcaster.
You can dip as few as 6 levels or go up to 10 (or even more) so it's more flexible.

3. Eldricht Knight Fighter (12). You could use the spell learning mainly on buff utilities, and the only dead level would be the 5th (see below). Going up to 12 seems to me the only way to get bang for your bucks though: you get 3 attacks per Attack and no loss of ASI (lvl6), reasonable loss of spell slots compared to pure Paladin and the great Eldricht Strike. You lose the great lvl 3/4/5 spells of Paladin though.

Note that Undying Light Tome Warlock COULD be another option for a smaller dip, such as lvl 7, to get you two max smites per short rest and useful invocations, as well as potentially all interesting rituals. But, since half the benefits are DM-dependent and this dip is not quite geared towards your goal, I didn't describe it.

Barbarian could be a good idea with other Paladins: since you already get resistance to magic, and raging prevent casting AND concentrating, I think the drawbacks overweight the benefits.

As for the others, unless I missed something, you don't meet the stat prerequisites or it would be too tedious to make it work...

Whatever you choose to do anyways, I strongly suggest you stick to Paladin until lvl 8-9. 5 brings 2nd Attack and Moonbeam, 6th +CHA to saves, 7th magic resistance, 8th an ASI to use preferably on +1 (CON & CHA), lvl 9 very good spells. Seems too good to pass. :)

Hope that helps. Have fun!

[WereRabbitz]

Hi! How do you do? :)

You net yourself pretty good stats here...
Personnally, from what I see and what you say, I'd stay stick to Paladin the whole way. As "tanking" in the meaning of MMO can be quite difficult, the best way to "tank" in D&d (from what I read and the little bit I experienced myself) is...
1. Keep enemies at bay from squishies at least, draw them to you at best.
2. Reduce enemy chance to damage and damage dealt.
3. Kill as fast as possible.
Either a mix of the three or a big focus on one way.
....

Thanks the DM let us roll 4d6 and pick the stat locations since of the 5 people I was the only one that had played before.

I was thinking as a traditional MMO tank, Compel Duel + Battle Maneuvers + Nature's Wrath allow me to have control over the field and protect the other 2 members of my group so it sounded like good options.

I think I will keep going down the Paladin route and maybe focus on killing monsters a little faster or get inventive with crowd control.

The paladin for sure can dish out some great damage I don't doubt I was only concerned about controlling the field of battle to keep my casters safe, but i'm convinced Paladin's will prevail.

[Firechanter]

Don't get too set on tanking, in the MMO sense. A tank in D&D needs usually needs to be able to deal significant damage. I'd consider bumping str sooner; sentinel only works if you hit them.

QFT.
Also note that Sentinel eats your Reaction, so you can only stop _one_ enemy in its tracks each round.
The long and short of it is that there is no Aggro mechanism in 5E. Tanking means keeping the enemy from attacking your Squishies. There are very few ways to do that mechanically and they typically only work against one enemy at a time. So as Pete said, your best bet is to dish out meaningful and consistent damage so that the enemies can't _afford_ to ignore you.

As a Paladin, you do have excellent damage potential. The flip side is that this "drawing aggro" may work all too well, when the enemies realize how dangerous you are and all pile on you. It's an awesome feeling to dish out, say, 70 damage in a single hit at level 7 (if you crit and smite against a fiend or undead), but once you do that, you'll have a big flashing red sign over your head and every halfway intelligent enemy in the area will pile on you and unleash everything they got to bring you, the biggest threat, down. Trust me, as the player of a Vengeance Paladin I know all too well what I'm talking about. ;)

[Citan]

Thanks the DM let us roll 4d6 and pick the stat locations since of the 5 people I was the only one that had played before.

I was thinking as a traditional MMO tank, Compel Duel + Battle Maneuvers + Nature's Wrath allow me to have control over the field and protect the other 2 members of my group so it sounded like good options.

I think I will keep going down the Paladin route and maybe focus on killing monsters a little faster or get inventive with crowd control.

The paladin for sure can dish out some great damage I don't doubt I was only concerned about controlling the field of battle to keep my casters safe, but i'm convinced Paladin's will prevail.
Compelled Duel is very nice. :)
While I like Maneouvers, the fact that you dip for effects that last 1 turn seems too costly to me. Although, being able to apply them when you hit on a weapon attack is nice (and coherent with the fluff, cf divine smite).
Because of this, I feel it would be better to bet on Command (will require a higher CHA tough, 16 is the strict minimum). You can obtain nearly the same results and even provoke OA doing so.
If you really feel you'd like more fuel for this control, you can always envision a Sorcerer multiclass later. But I think you will be very probably fine as a pure Paladin. :)

[Foxhound438]

RL Problems

As my thermodynamics prof once said, "Reality is a fake truth"

he also once said "N is number of turns to open dese nuts"

I think it's a language barrier thing