Optimizing a Commoner/Adept: Advice/Ideas Welcome

[neverstatic]

So, I'm building a character for a "Commoner" game my friend wants to run.

Rules:
* Starting at Level 1 as Commoners
* Humans preferred, halflings ok, dwarves/half-elves tolerated; all other races forbidden
* Multiclassing allowed after 1st level, but only into Expert/Warrior
* Characters with at least one level of Expert can multiclass into Adept, but can never have more than half their total levels in Adept
* Ability Scores: 15 pt buy
* No feats/items allowed that give a character "magic". This includes Magical Training, Hidden Talent, anything Incarnum or Binder based
* Normal Wealth by Level rules will not apply
* All races have their favored class set to Commoner to avoid XP penalties
* One Trait and 2 Flaws (from Unearthed Arcana) allowed
* Most animals are restricted (so we can't pool all our money to buy a riding dog, or maximize handle animal and have a pet lion). Donkey, guard dog, and most non-combat animals (toads, ravens, etc) are allowed)

Campaign Setting Notes:
* As commoners who've never seen magic/monsters, we're going to be up against will saves vs fear effects a lot (see a goblin for the first time: DC 5 will save or be shaken; that sort of thing)

Here's my first draft:

Strongheart Halfling Commoner 1
Str 6, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8
Feats: Apprentice (Philosopher), Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, x
Skills: 4+2
Gear: Light Crossbow (crafted by party member), .83g

My first 8 gp goes toward getting a Donkey, after which I can move 60' per round, while loading and firing my crossbow at -2.

As the build levels, I put 2 points into Wis to eventually get 3rd level spells. But for the most part, the build's spellcasting is utility/buffs, so maxing Wis makes it too MAD.

---

I've been considering another possibility, pushing Wis instead of Dex and taking Zen Archery. The higher save DCs would let me maximize Sleep and Web, and bump my Will saves up (fear).

Or, I could multiclass more and shoot for Commoner 1/Expert 6/Adept 7/Warrior 6. That gets two more points of BAB, but does give up 3rd level spells.

Any ideas?

[ATHATH]

There's actually a Commoner Handbook out there, but a lot of the stuff in it relies on trying to be a pseudo-spellcaster.

Can you be an Eberron Adept?

[MisterKaws]

There's actually a Commoner Handbook out there, but a lot of the stuff in it relies on trying to be a pseudo-spellcaster.

And Basketweaving with Mithril threads.

[neverstatic]

There's actually a Commoner Handbook out there, but a lot of the stuff in it relies on trying to be a pseudo-spellcaster.

Yeah, I'd found that handbook, and it's a great read, but as you say, most of the real power comes from feats that give SLAs or the equivalent.


Can you be an Eberron Adept?

Sadly, no.

[ATHATH]

Luckily, because Adepts have familiars, they qualify for some ACF's from Dragon Magazine.

I recommend taking either Arcane Reabsorbtion, Impromptu Metamagic, or Drakken Familiar (a Hummingbird gives a +4 to intitiative, so you should use either it or a Raven (UMD) as the base familiar).

Remember that you have access to Sanctified and Corrupt spells (if you're LN, TN, or CN, you get both of them).

Have a list of spell list expanders (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2777), a list of things that you can create with Create (Greater) Undead (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=181.0), and a list of minionmancy spells that you should cast from scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480523-Build-it-for-me-please&p=20506950#post20506950).

[Inevitability]

Adepts are spellcasters, which means you can use Craft (Alchemy). Do so: there's a lot of great stuff alchemy can give you.

[ATHATH]

Take Practiced Spellcaster and as many Adept levels as you can ASAP. CL is much more important than BAB or skillpoints.

If you can, take the Wild Cohort and Natural Bond feats, and pick up a Fleshraker. Cast Planar Familiar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a) from a scroll on it, then get its feats Psychic Reformed so that it has Vow of Poverty. Use the first bonus feat given by VoP on Touch of Golden Ice (which will trigger on all of the Fleshraker's attacks) and augment it (and the Fleshraker's normal poison) with a few feats from Savage Species. Sit back and watch your pet Raptor Jesus rip the faces off of enemies (or paralyze them with a single Full Attack, if they roll their saves poorly).

Start with the Phrenic template (remember that PLA's get the maximum PP for your ML applied to them for free). After you've bought it off (using LA buyoff) acquire the Shadow-Walker template and buy that off. Repeat with the Half-Clay Golem template (immunity to spells that allow SR and slashing and piercing damage!) and any others that tickle your fancy.

After you're satisfied with your template stacking, become a Necropolitan. Get Spellstitched (remember that the spells that you're Spellstitched with don't have to be Sor/Wiz spells; your stitcher just needs to have a level in Sorcerer or Wizard (look up an Artificer, Chameleon, or Archivist handbook for spell ideas)) (also remember that SLA's don't require any XP or material components). If you can age yourself somehow, you can acquire the Evolved Undead template.

If you can qualify for Magic in the Blood, take it. It will nearly triple the SLA's and PLA's you can get from template stacking.

[neverstatic]

Luckily, because Adepts have familiars, they qualify for some ACF's from Dragon Magazine.

I recommend taking either Arcane Reabsorbtion, Impromptu Metamagic, or Drakken Familiar (a Hummingbird gives a +4 to intitiative, so you should use either it or a Raven (UMD) as the base familiar).

Remember that you have access to Sanctified and Corrupt spells (if you're LN, TN, or CN, you get both of them).

Have a list of spell list expanders <link redacted>, a list of things that you can create with Create (Greater) Undead <link redacted>, and a list of minionmancy spells that you should cast from scrolls <link redacted>.

Pretty sure all books are allowed, but not sure about Dragon. I'll check and see.

I had forgotten about Sanctified/Corrupt spells. Definitely looking into those. If nothing else, they'll give me more options for Reserve Feats (waiting to hear back, but I'd guess those will be allowed).

Thanks for the lists. Unfortunately, the spell expanders are mostly off the table (prestige classes aren't allowed, and the feats/ACFs all seem to require other classes - mostly cleric/sorcerer). And I'm fairly certain I won't have access to most of those minion-mancy scrolls. Like I said, wealth by level and all that is going out the window. The DM has a "Commoner" game in mind. He's not going to give his commoners normal access to magic items at the corner AdventureMart. ;-P

[ATHATH]

Oh, don't forget that you can slap as many templates as you can apply (using rituals and such) to Raptor Jesus as well, but without having to worry about his LA.

If you want access to cool spells that the Full Casters of the world are too selfish/rare to let you have, persuade one of your party members to be a Midgard Dwarf, and have him create Staves of the spells that you want (make the Staves have only one or two charges to make them cheaper).

[neverstatic]

Take Practiced Spellcaster and as many Adept levels as you can ASAP. CL is much more important than BAB or skillpoints.

If you can, take the Wild Cohort and Natural Bond feats, and pick up a Fleshraker. Cast Planar Familiar <link redacted> from a scroll on it, then get its feats Psychic Reformed so that it has Vow of Poverty. Use the first bonus feat given by VoP on Touch of Golden Ice (which will trigger on all of the Fleshraker's attacks) and augment it (and the Fleshraker's normal poison) with a few feats from Savage Species. Sit back and watch your pet Raptor Jesus rip the faces off of enemies (or paralyze them with a single Full Attack, if they roll their saves poorly).

Start with the Phrenic template (remember that PLA's get the maximum PP for your ML applied to them for free). After you've bought it off (using LA buyoff) acquire the Shadow-Walker template and buy that off. Repeat with the Half-Clay Golem template (immunity to spells that allow SR and slashing and piercing damage!) and any others that tickle your fancy.

After you're satisfied with your template stacking, become a Necropolitan. Get Spellstitched (remember that the spells that you're Spellstitched with don't have to be Sor/Wiz spells; your stitcher just needs to have a level in Sorcerer or Wizard (look up an Artificer, Chameleon, or Archivist handbook for spell ideas)) (also remember that SLA's don't require any XP or material components). If you can age yourself somehow, you can acquire the Evolved Undead template.

If you can qualify for Magic in the Blood, take it. It will nearly triple the SLA's and PLA's you can get from template stacking.

Practiced Spellcaster should be useful. But will it still be if I don't have access to all these extra things you're suggesting? At the moment, the only additional spells it looks like I'll be able to add to my list are Sanctified/Corrupt, and I probably won't have access to most scrolls/magic items.

The fleshraker sounds sweet, but I can't take it. Animals restricted, see above.

As for Phrenic, I'm not allowed SLAs (or PLAs) at 1st level. It's a low magic game. And the other templates you mentioned sound like they'll be hard to get applied. Just how does my commoner/adept find Jalaunther Ithbreeiur, high priest of the Maskarran temple in Thesk? I'll have a hard time convincing my DM that I discovered the Ritual of Shadow Walking on my own. ;-)

Seriously though, I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I'm fairly certain that for my group, this level of extreme optimization won't fly. I'll have books and dice flying at my head the moment I mention any of this.

[ATHATH]

Ah, ok.

By the way, I think I accidentally ninja'd your last post.

A normal animal companion can still wreck face, especially after casting Create Frenzy Dog on it (this might make it no longer your animal companion, though).

[neverstatic]

Take Practiced Spellcaster and as many Adept levels as you can ASAP. CL is much more important than BAB or skillpoints.

If you can, take the Wild Cohort and Natural Bond feats, and pick up a Fleshraker. Cast Planar Familiar <link redacted> from a scroll on it, then get its feats Psychic Reformed so that it has Vow of Poverty. Use the first bonus feat given by VoP on Touch of Golden Ice (which will trigger on all of the Fleshraker's attacks) and augment it (and the Fleshraker's normal poison) with a few feats from Savage Species. Sit back and watch your pet Raptor Jesus rip the faces off of enemies (or paralyze them with a single Full Attack, if they roll their saves poorly).

Start with the Phrenic template (remember that PLA's get the maximum PP for your ML applied to them for free). After you've bought it off (using LA buyoff) acquire the Shadow-Walker template and buy that off. Repeat with the Half-Clay Golem template (immunity to spells that allow SR and slashing and piercing damage!) and any others that tickle your fancy.

After you're satisfied with your template stacking, become a Necropolitan. Get Spellstitched (remember that the spells that you're Spellstitched with don't have to be Sor/Wiz spells; your stitcher just needs to have a level in Sorcerer or Wizard (look up an Artificer, Chameleon, or Archivist handbook for spell ideas)) (also remember that SLA's don't require any XP or material components). If you can age yourself somehow, you can acquire the Evolved Undead template.

If you can qualify for Magic in the Blood, take it. It will nearly triple the SLA's and PLA's you can get from template stacking.

Ooh, another gem you mentioned (credit where it's due) is Wild Cohort. I was struggling to have enough gp at low level to get a basic mount (donkey or horse), but now I could get one as my Cohort. Who knows, maybe as we level, my DM will later rule that I could trade up to some other creature from the druid list (though probably not a dinosaur).

[neverstatic]

Ah, ok.

By the way, I think I accidentally ninja'd your last post.

A normal animal companion can still wreck face, especially after casting Create Frenzy Dog on it (this might make it no longer your animal companion, though).

Yep, definitely some ninja action. No worries. :)

[ATHATH]

Ooh, another gem you mentioned (credit where it's due) is Wild Cohort. I was struggling to have enough gp at low level to get a basic mount (donkey or horse), but now I could get one as my Cohort. Who knows, maybe as we level, my DM will later rule that I could trade up to some other creature from the druid list (though probably not a dinosaur).
Yeah, Raptor Jesus is supposed to be your animal companion. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

By the way, if you can get access to a Staff (because Midgard Dwarves don't get to waive the prerequisites of items they create using Scribe Scroll) of Dragonblood Spellpact, you can trade some of your lousy spells for really good ones (be a Silverbrow Human). If you can swap with a Trapsmith, do so. If your campaign only has Adepts, swap some spells with some Urban Adepts, which have slightly different spell lists (they get Charm Person!).

[Coidzor]

A normal animal companion can still wreck face, especially after casting Create Frenzy Dog on it (this might make it no longer your animal companion, though).

Where's that spell from?

[Tiri]

Where's that spell from?

It's from an article on the WotC website called Dogs in the Forgotten Realms (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20011025a).

[Coidzor]

It's from an article on the WotC website called Dogs in the Forgotten Realms (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20011025a).

Ahh, thank you. :smallsmile: That's certainly interesting, especially for animal companions that just have a single bite attack anyway.

Be a bit fussy to update to 3.5 or Pathfinder though, I imagine.

[mabriss lethe]

Are various heritage (like) feats on the table? Barring of course, the ones that grant magic sla's and the like. That could open up some interesting choices, as could vile feats.

Given the limitations.... I present...

The Bodyfreak: A twisted wreckage of a person that traces his lineage back through several unnatural sources.

I'd go with something like Human Commoner 1/Expert 1/ Adept 10/Warrior 8 alternating as needed to meet the game's class limitation.

Feats:
1.Dragontouched (adds no magic, but allows you to be treated as a 1st level sorcerer for the purpose of chosing draconic feats
1B. Draconic Heritage (any)
3. Draconic Claws. (gives you two claw attacks as natural weapons and the ability to attack with one as a swift action on any round you cast a spell as a standard.)
6. Aberration Blood (any, though I'd probably go for bulging eyes for the bonus to spot checks)
9. Inhuman Reach (adds 5 feet to your natural reach)
12. Deepspawn (grants two tentacle attacks)
15. Multi-attack (reduces secondary natural attack penalties to -2)
18. [Free space.](Fiery Burst? Star Spawn?)

You can cast spells and wreck things with a flurry of natural attacks. You'll have decent saves around the board, decent HP and BAB. You won't be winning any beauty contests, but that isn't why you're here. You aren't the pretty magical girl, you're more like Baba Yaga. You're a tough old crow. When things go wrong, you answer with a barrage of tentacles and claws that stretch unnaturally long out from your tattered robes. When you cast spells, you still manage to rake your opponents.

If you're going the reserve feat route, your options are limited. While reserve feats would normally be very useful for an adept. only being able to take half your total levels in the class makes it really unfeasible. Given the limits, the best you can manage is Adept 10, which will give you access to a single 3rd level spell. But you won't get access to those until character level 19 at the earliest, after you've gotten your last pre-epic feat. Your reserve feats will have to play off of level 2 spells: That limits you to fiery burst, touch of healing and mitigate suffering. While you'll qualify at level 16, you won't have another feat come available until level 18. You can only pick one, and it won't be very useful at that point.

[Coidzor]

The Bodyfreak: A twisted wreckage of a person that traces his lineage back through several unnatural sources.

I'd go with something like Human Commoner 1/Expert 1/ Adept 10/Warrior 8 alternating as needed to meet the game's class limitation.

Feats:
1.Dragontouched (adds no magic, but allows you to be treated as a 1st level sorcerer for the purpose of chosing draconic feats
1B. Draconic Heritage (any)
3. Draconic Claws. (gives you two claw attacks as natural weapons and the ability to attack with one as a swift action on any round you cast a spell as a standard.)
6. Aberration Blood (any, though I'd probably go for bulging eyes for the bonus to spot checks)
9. Inhuman Reach (adds 5 feet to your natural reach)
12. Deepspawn (grants two tentacle attacks)
15. Multi-attack (reduces secondary natural attack penalties to -2)
18. [Free space.](Fiery Burst? Star Spawn?)

I'd say go ahead and spend a flaw to get Dragon Tail(Races of the Dragon) as a feat at 1st level, too, and maybe pick up Improved Unarmed Strike or Multi-Attack at 3rd level, having gotten Draconic Claws with a second flaw.

It's a shame that Shape Soulmeld for Claws of the Wyrm (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4) is disallowed as magic, though, because that would shave off a feat from the build for the same gain of two 1d6 claw attacks. I guess getting a swift action attack with a single claw isn't half bad, though.

The priority items would be a Fanged Mask(MIC?) and Horned Helm(MIC) for a bite attack and gore attack, as well as an amulet of mighty fists and ghost touch shroud sort of deal.

Of course, Willing Deformity(1), Deformity(Clawed Hands)(1B), Deformity(Teeth)(F1), and Improved Unarmed Strike(F2) would mean you'd have a 1d3 unarmed strike, -5 1d4 bite attack, and two -5 1d6 claw attacks at first level. Unless the DM rules that Deformity(Clawed Hands) means that you have a 1d6 slashing unarmed strike without needing Improved Unarmed Strike.

Planar Touchstone(Catalogues of Enlightenment) would give the granted domain power of the Hunger domain for a Bite attack, but I can't even fathom how that would go over with the current restrictions.

[Telonius]

Are prestige classes allowed at all? You could probably make a decent Exemplar build if they are.

[Troacctid]

Templates and level-adjusted races tend to be a lot better in this type of game because the opportunity cost of taking them is lower. So if you can be a half-celestial, for instance, it's probably worth it.

[mabriss lethe]

I'd say go ahead and spend a flaw to get Dragon Tail(Races of the Dragon) as a feat at 1st level, too, and maybe pick up Improved Unarmed Strike or Multi-Attack at 3rd level, having gotten Draconic Claws with a second flaw.

It's a shame that Shape Soulmeld for Claws of the Wyrm (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4) is disallowed as magic, though, because that would shave off a feat from the build for the same gain of two 1d6 claw attacks. I guess getting a swift action attack with a single claw isn't half bad, though.

The priority items would be a Fanged Mask(MIC?) and Horned Helm(MIC) for a bite attack and gore attack, as well as an amulet of mighty fists and ghost touch shroud sort of deal.

Of course, Willing Deformity(1), Deformity(Clawed Hands)(1B), Deformity(Teeth)(F1), and Improved Unarmed Strike(F2) would mean you'd have a 1d3 unarmed strike, -5 1d4 bite attack, and two -5 1d6 claw attacks at first level. Unless the DM rules that Deformity(Clawed Hands) means that you have a 1d6 slashing unarmed strike without needing Improved Unarmed Strike.

Planar Touchstone(Catalogues of Enlightenment) would give the granted domain power of the Hunger domain for a Bite attack, but I can't even fathom how that would go over with the current restrictions.

Ah yes. I forgot the OP said flaws were allowed. In that case, the above suggestions are very good. Accelerate your horrific devolution and bring the fun online earlier.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would go for a diplomat. Boost your diplomacy skill as high as possible and just talk everything to death^^

[mabriss lethe]

I'm going to amend my earlier thoughts on using feats from flaws to accelerate the Bodyfreak's metamorphosis. Having a boatload of natural attacks mounted onto a Commoner 1 isn't exactly a recipe for long term survival. You'd need to stay out of melee combat, especially in the early levels. Instead, you should probably use the feats to improve either ranged combat or overall durability.

Tactically speaking, your best bet at early levels is either to fire from cover, or shoot and move. Cheap tactics that can help you at the beginning include using a Sandblaster as a 1/encounter debuff. (technically an exotic weapon, but it creates a cone of damage. No attack roll means the nonproficiency penalty never happens.) You can also pre-set fuses in flasks of oil for some poor-man's alchemists fire until you can afford a good stock of the real deal.

[neverstatic]

Some fascinating ideas, though probably a bit too much for my DM to handle. I've since heard back from him on some of the suggestions. No Reserve Feats, no Bloodlines, no "deformed-monster dragon people", no prestige classes, no exotic templates. Oh, and he says Wild Cohort is too good, so he nerfed it. All the progression bonuses (HD, etc) the cohort would get are halved.

At this point, with the number of restrictions being imposed, I'm throwing in the towel. I'm thinking I'll just go Commoner 1/Expert 10/Warrior 9 for the skills and BAB. Probably just take a mixture of mounted archery feats.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I guess the world just wasn't ready.

[Telonius]

Well, with those restrictions ... I guess Leadership is going to be the way to go. Not for the cohort, for the Followers. Halfling rock-throwers would probably be the biggest force multipliers you're going to get. Once you get 20 of them, at least one will hit per round.

[Inevitability]

Well, with those restrictions ... I guess Leadership is going to be the way to go. Not for the cohort, for the Followers. Halfling rock-throwers would probably be the biggest force multipliers you're going to get. Once you get 20 of them, at least one will hit per round.

This DM forbade his players from taking Fragile Construct, of all things. I doubt Leadership will be allowed.

[ATHATH]

Did he forbid exotic races?

Are you sure that D&D is an appropriate system for the game that the DM wants to run?

[neverstatic]

Yeah, no Leadership either.

The races thing is because he has a particular vision for this game. We're commoners in a hamlet or thorpe mostly consisting of humans (with maybe a halfling family or two). There might be one or two half-elves (as long as they're not connected to their elven heritage), and perhaps a dwarven miner/trader in the area. But other than that, there's nothing unusual. Nothing that you could squint at and say "that's magic". Nothing that wouldn't fit in almost perfectly in a non-fantasy setting. So, no elves, no dragonborn, no half-orcs, no half-golems, etc. This way, when our characters actually do have a run in with magic/kobolds/whatever, they'll be crapping their pants in terror over things most D&D peasants are too jaded to even notice. That's his concept at least.

[neverstatic]

...and since we're all going to be multiclassing, but entirely into NPC classes, that's his justification for nerfing Wild Cohort and banning Leadership and others. He doesn't want one person's feat being more powerful than another person's character.

As for the Reserve Feats, I agree they're not powerful enough to restrict, but he's doing that to maintain the "extreme low-magic" feel that he's going for.

Ultimately, it just means that martial options and non-magical skill-based options (diplomacy/intimidate) will be best (since they're unlikely to be hit by his nerf bat).

[mabriss lethe]

You could always try to snag the lucid dreaming skill as an expert, then go terrorising everyone through their dreams. (though most likely that won't fly either)