Help a Pathfinder newbie build a character

[Rakaydos]

So, I'm trying to put together a character for a "dragon friendly" Level 15 gestalt 3.p game. Looking over the pathfinder Wiki, I'm thinking of a Winged Dayraider Kobold (so I keep both sides of the gestalt available) Warder (Dervish Defender architype)//Fighter (Mobile Fighter architype) or Warder//Psychic warrior, wielding finess weapons to make up for my abysmal strength.

However, that's where 3rd edition character building starts to get complicaed. I'm looking for help actually assembling this into an actual character block.

[Devigor]

Try using this:

http://charactersheet.co.uk/pathfinder/#/

It's AWESOME for building Pathfinder characters, and is relatively gestalt-friendly. There is not enough space for epic characters, but levels 1 through 20 are a breeze.

[Devigor]

Especially since you can just go to the SRD or OGC websites and copy-paste into the Notes sections.

[Rakaydos]

As I happens, I'm more in a "give a man a fish" mood than a "teach a man to fish" one.

[Devigor]

I'll build you that character if you're okay with me making it for you. When do you need it by?

[dascarletm]

With Gestalt, I'd suggest Warder//Psion. You get Int synergy.

As far as building a gestalt character, you'll want to ensure you have one side as passive, and one as active. That is one class uses actions, and the other class is devoted to non-actions/buffs, etc.

Psion can be passive, use long term buffs. Your warder will be active with maneuvers.

[Devigor]

There are all kinds of things that he could do.

For instance, if homebrew is allowed, the Sleeping Goddess discipline is a must if he goes Psion//Warder.

Soulknife is amazing in a Gestalt, since you can maintain psychic strike with two psychic natural weapons and then expend them whenever you are targeted by spells. A bite and a tail slap would be thematic.

Let's see... If it is a high-op game you want a full caster like psion or wizard or some such, for sure. Not sure if you want a Wis or Int based set of classes, though. Edit: Actually, it looks like the smart idea would be sorcerer. Maybe Draconic Rite of Passage and such, if that is allowed? Not for Pun-Pun stupidity, but the extra casting would have you at 8th level spells. What active classes go well with a buff-happy sorcerer? Well... Bard. Not kidding. Go with just snowflake wardance ( especially for a white-scaled kobold :smallwink: ) and maybe grab Martial Training two or three times for Diamond Mind stuff. Undersong and Perform: battle drill if you are allowed, and you can copy the Psychic Strike spell absorption for all levels. Only it looks even cooler because you basically swat spells out of the air with your tail or claws.


This makes you dependent on Dex and Cha. Perfect.

[Rakaydos]

I dont nessisarally want to be psionically themed, just have a bit more utility than a Bo9S based class alone presumably gives me. If I could pull off Magus with 2 weapon fighting, that could also work.

Combat wise, I need enough Op to keep up with full-blooded dragons with class levels, but I dont want to go for a caster route.

[Rakaydos]

Actually, it looks like the smart idea would be sorcerer. Maybe Draconic Rite of Passage and such, if that is allowed? Not for Pun-Pun stupidity, but the extra casting would have you at 8th level spells. What active classes go well with a buff-happy sorcerer? Well... Bard. Not kidding. Go with just snowflake wardance ( especially for a white-scaled kobold :smallwink: ) and maybe grab Martial Training two or three times for Diamond Mind stuff. Undersong and Perform: battle drill if you are allowed, and you can copy the Psychic Strike spell absorption for all levels. Only it looks even cooler because you basically swat spells out of the air with your tail or claws.


This makes you dependent on Dex and Cha. Perfect.

Looks like a strong start. My melee ability still decent, after combat buffing? As I said, I dont want to be stepped on by the dragons I'm adventuring with.

[Devigor]

I dont nessisarally want to be psionically themed, just have a bit more utility than a Bo9S based class alone presumably gives me. If I could pull off Magus with 2 weapon fighting, that could also work.

Combat wise, I need enough Op to keep up with full-blooded dragons with class levels, but I dont want to go for a caster route.


Oki, so here is an idea... How about Psychic Warrior//Swordsage? They are both based on Wisdom, and you can pay for an Incarnate or something (maybe) to use Enlarge double-casted on yourself. Take the kobold racial feats... And boom. You ARE a dragon, with maneuvers.

Edit: Yes, with that Charisma-based build, you'll be able to get very good mobility, especially if you get Dervish Dance or something similar, and you can cast some Breath spells, and pretend you are actually breathing them. Like a dragon.

[Devigor]

Incidentally, because of the way the buffing and such works... You could do something purely silly.

Psychic Warrior 5/Bard 5/Swordsage 5//Sorcerer 15

In this case, you will be able to use Expansion (that is the power) to become Large.
You will have the combo to swat spells out of the air.
You will have Claws, Bite, Tail Slap, and Fly speed 20 feet (average).

In addition, you will have maneuver usage, and buffing on the other side (I suggest blasting for flavor, since a nice blast spell could be like your breath weapon)

[Rakaydos]

Lets reel this back in. The original concept was to go for a Dex/Int build, using Warder on 1 side to keep up with draconic HP and saves. What can I do to get buffs and utility on the other side, based on those stats?

[Devigor]

The best dex/int style utility character is an Unchained Rogue for skills, or Duelist for combat.

Wizard or Psion if you are up for a full caster.

I don't remember details, but perhaps a Cryptic?

The thing is... With the build I mentioned above, you are almost as powerful in combat as a dragon of equal HD, and all the "leftover" options for spell selection and power selection can be for completely utilitarian purposes.

It is very flavorful if you have a specific attitude towards other dergz. For instance: "You're not a real dragon. You're a slug, content with coins. I am a REAL dragon."
Alternatively, you could idolize a dragon and be doing what you do to be more like them.

[Devigor]

The thing is... With the build I mentioned above, you are almost as powerful in combat as a dragon of equal HD, and all the "leftover" options for spell selection and power selection can be for completely utilitarian purposes.

It is very flavorful if you have a specific attitude towards other dergz. For instance: "You're not a real dragon. You're a slug, content with coins. I am a REAL dragon."
Alternatively, you could idolize a dragon and be doing what you do to be more like them.

It is also EXTREMELY important that you tell us something else:

How many dragons are you working with, and how many of them want to go fight in melee? If every player has a dragon buddy/companion/PC and wants to melee... You probably shouldn't be up there in the thick of things, to get stepped on in the first place.

[Rakaydos]

Unknown at this point- it's stll recruiting.

However, the character I want to play involves hitting things with swords while flying around like any anime protagonist who gets wings. Magic is utility, buffs, and perhaps some storm-themed offensive magic. (lightning, sonic, water, air, cold, force)

[bahamut920]

If you're not married to psionics, don't want casting, want maneuvers, and want a decent amount of power, I'd suggest Warblade or Warder//Factotum (from the 3.5 book Dungeonscape). Factotum is not only a near-perfect skillmonkey class (6+Int skills, all skills as class skills, Int to all Str & Dex skills, Int synergy from class features, and the ability to boost skill checks into the stratosphere), it also has a couple of very, very powerful class features; arcane dilettante allows you to pick up a smattering of buff and utility spells without forcing you to become a "caster" (although you could probably convince your DM to allow you to switch it out for some swashbuckler deeds or maybe more maneuvers or something if you're that set against casting), cunning surge allows you to completely bypass the action economy (spend 3 points, which refresh per encounter, to get an extra standard action - which means moving in and still full attacking, a full attack after casting a buff spell, a full attack and a maneuver, etc), and cunning breach, which allows you to bypass SR and DR. Their capstone (at level 19) is pretty powerful, too; you essentially "prepare" three extraordinary abilities from other base classes and then spend some of your (again, per-encounter) points to gain them for one minute, using your factotum class level as the appropriate class level. There's a whole bunch of fun stuff you can get with it. And on top of that, you gain Int to AC in light armor (at first, you have to spend points for it, but later you get it for free), Int to attacks, damage, or saves (by spending a point), minor healing, the ability to ignore damage that would kill you (by spending points), and Int to all Strength checks, Dex checks (including initiative!), and Str & Dex-based skill checks. It's probably my favorite 3.5 class.

If you're personally limited to only the Pathfinder SRD, Investigator or Magus are reasonable substitutes for Factotum. Both are heavily Int-based, reasonable (but not full) spellcasters/alchemists, and add to both your combat prowess and your out-of-combat options.

[Devigor]

I think Factotum is a fun class, and the dilettante is great (especially if your DM allows you to choose psionic powers as Psi-Like abilities), but I just didn't think that was leaning towards your style of character. There is a Pathfinder version, though, so if you want it, make sure you grab that version.

Warblade is excellent, as well. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are my lovelies. <3 :smalltongue:

Factotum also fits for kobolds, as a whole. Crafty, dungeoneering, exploring, mining, trapsmithing...

[Devigor]

A simple option is to grab all of your racial kobold feats... And be a Duskblade//Magus. Duskblades use Intelligence for using spells, and this way you just slap your spells on your sword.

Along with that, the Magus just adds to it. Use both together. *shrug* Shouldn't be too difficult, all things considered. You get Greater Magic Weapon, as well. Buy some medium armor and use a two-handed weapon. Grab power attack, get some item or take the heroic surge feat, and use that extra action to move where you need before a full attack. Ouch.

Edit: Alternatively, use a light or one-handed reach weapon and don't even grab power attack or pirhana strike or anything. You'll have a crazy dpr anyway. Grab Arcane Strike or whatever that feat is (since Pathfinder gives you tons of feats) and enjoy hitting everything with fistfuls of d6's.

[bahamut920]

Well, that's the good part of factotum - it can complement almost any character concept. OP said he wanted a class to complement his Int-based maneuver-using class, and give him a bit more versatility and maybe a slight boost to power without being a full caster. Factotum seemed the natural suggestion, at least to me.


Edit: Alternatively, use a light or one-handed reach weapon and don't even grab power attack or pirhana strike or anything. You'll have a crazy dpr anyway. Grab Arcane Strike or whatever that feat is (since Pathfinder gives you tons of feats) and enjoy hitting everything with fistfuls of d6's.
Pathfinder has its own Arcane Strike, which is "swift action to grant small bonus to weapon attack/damage for 1 round". Most 3.P campaigns that I've seen consider that an update to the 3.5 version.

[Rakaydos]

Sounds like Warder //Factorum is a good chassis, then.

Must-have feats- I definatly want kobold flight. The pathfinder version needs level 9, IIRC
Anything else I need to make his work?

[bahamut920]

There's a feat in this Class Chronicles article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) called Font of Inspiration. It gives extra inspiration points, can be taken multiple times, and gives more each time you take it. It's good for filling any "extra" feat slots in your build.

See if the DM will allow Pathfinder Arcane Strike to work with a factotum. 3.5 Arcane Strike requires you to sacrifice spell slots, so it doesn't work with the factotum, which uses spell-like abilities instead of spells. But the Pathfinder version just requires the ability to cast, so see if the DM will make an exception for the factotum. They have a caster level and access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list (as SLAs), so it's not inconceivable that a DM would allow it. The feat scales, and at 15th level, it's +4 to damage, which is untyped and stacks with a weapon's magical enhancement bonus.

Knowledge Devotion (3.5, Complete Champion) is an excellent combat feat for characters with good skill points and access to all Knowledge skills. It gives you a scaling attack and damage bonus based upon your ability to make Knowledge checks to identify your enemies. Just one more way to make your Int score work for you in combat.

[Rakaydos]

ok, so Draconic Paragon is a 4 feat tax to get a fly speed of 20. That's almost half my feats right there.
If the dm lets me, Signature Skill (Fly) (and possibly Acrobatics) let me be more maneuverable than my larger draconic brethren. Acrobatic feat gives more bonuses.

Two weapn fighting is a bonus feat, but the higher levels need to be spent for. Knowlege devotion looks good.
I need to be dual wielding 1 handed light blades, is there a good exotic that increases my damage by a worthwhile amount?

[Devigor]

ok, so Draconic Paragon is a 4 feat tax to get a fly speed of 20. That's almost half my feats right there.
If the dm lets me, Signature Skill (Fly) (and possibly Acrobatics) let me be more maneuverable than my larger draconic brethren. Acrobatic feat gives more bonuses.

Two weapn fighting is a bonus feat, but the higher levels need to be spent for. Knowlege devotion looks good.
I need to be dual wielding 1 handed light blades, is there a good exotic that increases my damage by a worthwhile amount?

Generally, you want to use your feats on the things that those SLA's and stances/maneuvers won't get you. Font of Inspiration is okay, but ultimately unnecessary. If you want to dual wield light blades, use daggers. They have 19-20 crit., can be thrown, and are dirt cheap. Enchant two (you want to put CHEAP circumstantial stuff on each one that grants some useful effect, NOT Bane or Holy or stuff that adds damage, since you get that from your magic), and buy a bunch of non-magic duds to toss at idiots lacking DR.

You shouldn't worry about enchanting your armor at all, really. You may not want any armor, if your Dex is high enough.

Heroic Surge is better than Font of Inspiration. You can't use it to activate your class features, but giving you an extra standard action is about as good as saving you 3 inspiration points. Travel Devotion is another decent feat, but there are better things to do with your Swift Actions (and IMMEDIATE ACTIONS!).

[Rakaydos]

Feat 1 Improved wings (kobold)
Feat 3 green scales(kobold)
Feat 5 breath weapon(kobold)
Feat 7 Improved 2 weapon fighting
Feat 9 Knowlege Devotion
Feat 11 (kobold) Draconic Paragon (flight)
Feat 13 Weapon Finesse
Feat 15 Flyby attack

[Devigor]

Feat 1 Improved wings (kobold)
Feat 3 green scales(kobold)
Feat 5 breath weapon(kobold)
Feat 7 Improved 2 weapon fighting
Feat 9 Knowlege Devotion
Feat 11 (kobold) Draconic Paragon (flight)
Feat 13 Signature Skill (fly)
Feat 15 Flyby attack

That there is perfectly fine. :smallsmile:

[Rakaydos]

So I still need skills (maxxing acrobatics, as well as grabbing max ranks of fly after level 11, and enough knowleges to cover Know Devotion. I may be one of the only ones with trapfinding, so disable device and perception skills), stats after the exact number of point buy is solidified (either 15 or 25), and actual powers

[Rakaydos]

25 point buy- 16/16/14/10/10/10
I'm thinking...
12STR
16 Dex
8 con
16 Int
10 wis
10 cha

...though I might canibalize my charisma for a bit of constitution, depending on how the point buy costs work, exactly.

That gets me, what, 9 skill points per level?

Acrobatics (15)
Fly (15)
Disable Device (15)
Open Lock (15)
Perception (15)
Know (History) (5)
Know (Martial) (5)
Know (nobility) (5)
Know (Arcana) (5)
Know (dungeoneering)(5)
Know (Nature)(5)
Know (Religion)(5)
Know (the plains)(5)
Know (Engineering) (5)
Stealth (7)
Use magic device (8)

I need 1 spell a day of 6th and 6 of 5th level or lower, 13 maneuvers known and 8 stances.
Avaliable disciplines are: Broken Blade, Golden Lion, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury

[Devigor]

I need 1 spell a day of 6th and 6 of 5th level or lower, 13 maneuvers known and 8 stances.
Avaliable disciplines are: Broken Blade, Golden Lion, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury

Skills lookin' good.

I'll browse the disciplines tomorrow and let you know any interesting ones I find. At this point, you just need a main go-to for combat (one stance and two or three maneuvers for that) and the rest go towards utility/situational options. I'll keep in mind the general need to maintain effectiveness with other melee powerhouses.

[bahamut920]

Nightstalker's transformation is a good 5th level spell. It essentially turns you into a rogue. It bans spellcasting, like tenser's transformation, but you don't actually spellcast. Fly might also be a good choice, depending upon your maneuverability; it grants a caster level bonus to Fly checks and sets your maneuverability to Good (another +4 bonus). Haste is always useful, and knock is powerful, despite its low level. And superior resistance is a good choice for your 6; it'll save you a lot of money on a resistance item to saves. Sense vitals is lower level than nightstalker's transformation and grants sneak attack. and polymorphs might come in handy, too.

Most of all, remember that you're pretending to be a wizard. You can prepare different spells each day, and you automatically know all spells on the sorcerer/wizard spell list, without the vulnerability of a spellbook or limited spells known.

[Rakaydos]

Hmm... I think I forgot my stat boosts for levelups.

Can I get away with:
12 Str
17 Dex
10 Con
18 Int
10 Wis
8 Cha

at level 15?
With full ranks in Athletics?

[bahamut920]

As a Dex-based melee character, you want the stat you're using for attacks and/or damage to be the highest. Your best stat should be Dex. Int is a secondary. Yes, it's important; both of your classes have class features based upon Intelligence. But you will be using Dexterity all combat, every combat. Int will mostly be providing boosts to your attack and defense. Make sure that it's working as hard as it can. Unless you absolutely need all of the skill points you're getting per level with the 18 Int for your character build to function, Dex should switch with Int. And remember, in Pathfinder, buying a Headband of Mental Prowess gives you max ranks in one skill per two point of Int bonus it grants.

[Rakaydos]

So, in summary...


12 Str
18 Dex
10 Con
17 Int
10 Wis
8 Cha


Acrobatics (15)
Fly (15)
Disable Device (15)
Open Lock (15)
Perception (15)
Know (History) (5)
Know (Martial) (5)
Know (nobility) (5)
Know (Arcana) (5)
Know (dungeoneering)(5)
Know (Nature)(5)
Know (Religion)(5)
Know (the plains)(5)
Know (Engineering) (5)
Stealth (7)
Use magic device (8)
Feat 1 Improved wings (kobold)
Feat 3 green scales(kobold)
Feat 5 breath weapon(kobold)
Feat 7 Improved 2 weapon fighting
Feat 9 Knowledge Devotion
Feat 11 (kobold) Draconic Paragon (flight)
Feat 13 Weapon Finesse
Feat 15 Flyby attack

I need 1 spell a day of 6th and 6 of 5th level or lower, 13 maneuvers known and 8 stances.
Avaliable disciplines are: Broken Blade, Golden Lion, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury

I also need gear.

[Rakaydos]

Bump.

A quick glance at the Armor page tells me that max Dex for effective light armors is 5 for +3, 6 for +2, and 8 for +1. That's a +2 dex item, a +4 dex item, and a +8 dex item to max them out. what can I afford, and what should I reserve for the rest of my gear?