Level 10 warlock / sorcerer

[chokathehutt]

Hi everyone, starting a new game at level 10. I wanted to give a try to the warlock or the sorcerer, can't decide which, so i decided to take both.

What would be a good mix?
Warlock4/Sorcerer6?

Was thinking of having an imp familiar to scout.
There should be a wizard and maybe a psion in the party, so i'm starting to wonder what would be my real role.

Any tips would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[Specter]

If you're focusing on damage, take the Agonizing Blast invocation, the Twinned Spell metamagic option and watch them cry.

You can also go Bladelock if there's no one willing to take a hit in your party. With Mirror Image and Haste, you can self-buff effectively (in which case Quicken Spell is recommended).

[chokathehutt]

Thanks, maybe i should have said a bit more.
I want it to be ranged, not bladelock.
How does twinned spell works with EB?
Twice the amount of blasts?

[PeteNutButter]

Thanks, maybe i should have said a bit more.
I want it to be ranged, not bladelock.
How does twinned spell works with EB?
Twice the amount of blasts?

You can't twin EB after lvl 4.

Just take two levels of warlock and then full sorcerer. You can cast EB and quicken EB to double it for 2 sorcery points. So you'll need a lot of sorcerer levels to build that up. Eventually your hex+scorching ray will outpace your EB damage.

[Elite Hatter]

Unless you have a specific RP goal in mind, I'd say try 8 Sorc/ 2 Warlock. That gives you 2 ASI's and still amazing at will dmg. Also since you can't cast 2 spells of level 1 or higher under normal circumstances (has to be a spell and cantrip according to the PHB) you can quicken and normal 1 action spell and still blast away with 2d10+Cha mod. Which is nice.

And after level 5 Eldritch Blast can't be Twinned since it can target 2 opponents. But your DM may feel differently, so definitely ask. Because if it is allowed, then yes. Double amount of beams.

[Citan]

Hi everyone, starting a new game at level 10. I wanted to give a try to the warlock or the sorcerer, can't decide which, so i decided to take both.

What would be a good mix?
Warlock4/Sorcerer6?

Was thinking of having an imp familiar to scout.
There should be a wizard and maybe a psion in the party, so i'm starting to wonder what would be my real role.

Any tips would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Hi! ;)
I'd say the breakpoint depends on what you want to play, what's allowed and your stats.

First, quick overview of each classes's benefit in your context:
- Sorcerer brings Metamagic: Quicken will be the best for you, followed by, depending on your play style, Twinned (if you have a strong CHA) or Heightened (sometimes you just want to be sure you lock down the soab :)). As well as powerful benefits when reaching lvl 6, whatever archetype you choose.
- Warlock brings powerful cantrip, invocations and short-rest slots.
- Both classes offer buffs, debuff and offensive spells, with many being common. So no much difference here except at lvl 1.
- Warlock can be effective at lvl 2, 3, 5, 7. Sorcerer will require at the very least 6 levels to get a decent amount of Metamagic points and archetype feature.

From here on, you have many ways to build.

1. Classic caster with CHA focus: Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 8.
Take Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast invocations. Bump CHA by 2 at first Sorcerer ASI and either max it at 2nd ASI or get a feat (Warcaster first, Crossbow Expert can be nice too).
Favored Soul (for extra spells) and Shadow Sorcerer if allowed (for "disadvantage beast") are the best choices here.

2. Classic caster without CHA focus (start 16 and stay there): Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 8 (for extra feat) or Warlock 3 / Sorcerer 7 (for Chain/Tome pact): nearly the same as the precedent except that you spend ASI on feats only so would require Shadow Origin to really work. Chain is nice for magic resistance and scouting, Tome for cantrips and rituals.

3. Melee caster with CHA focus: Undying Light Tome Warlock 3 / Draconic Fire Sorcerer 7: grab Shillelagh with Tome (along with Produce Flame or Thorn Whip, see later), Eldricht Blast (with Repelling AND Agonizing if you took Thorn Whip, otherwise just Repelling). Learn Green Blade Flame and Booming Blade. Thanks to the "all-CHA" attack, you'll deal amazing amounts of damage as soon as lvl 1, with a hefty boost with Sorcerer 6. Obviously Quicken is the metamagic of choice here. Any other is good (Twin is always a nice choice).
Works best starting as either Half-Elf (better starting CHA, can take a feat at lvl 8) or Variant Human (start with 16 CHA but Warcaster).

4. Melee caster without CHA focus: basically the same build except that you take Blade pact instead and create...
- Either a heavy weapon (although I'd need other people to confirm it works by RAW, not sure you're not restricted to one-handed/versatile weapons) if you favor STR.
- Or a finesse weapon if you favor DEX (which I would strongly suggest since you would be Draconic Sorcerer: you can start with 16/17 AC and finish at 18 with your natural armor).

5. Melee fighter: Warlock 5 / Sorcerer 5: Blade warlock with lvl 5 invocation for extra attack. Imo it's strictly inferior to the previous ones (because the SCAG melee cantrips are so powerful), but I'm no expert on Bladelock so i'll let others speak on this. :)

As for spells, well, you will probably want to learn Blur or Mirror Image whatever happens (mandatory for melee builds), as well as Shield (Sorcerer), Hex (Warlock) and Fireball (either).
After that, it's a matter of taste. I'm fond of Invisibility for all builds (when **** happens or for sneak) and Greater Invisibility for meleers.
I also usually learn Bestow Curse on Sorcerer because it can be a game changer (especially if you can ensure it works with Shadow Beast, Bend Luck or Heightened).
Unless you go melee, I strongly prefer Slow over Haste. It's usually underrated unfortunately but, in a party with everyone having attacks and being squishies, it can very well save your life (if you have to run away) or make the fight a breeze (-2 AC).

Fly can be great for both, although less for the meleer (you still would get opportunity attacks against you, risking your concentration). Tauting enemies from the sky while you drop Fireballs and Blasts all over the place... Is indeed a blast. You will quickly become the prime target for every ranged enemy though and if you lose concentration, beware the fall! XD

Anyways... Hope these suggestions will help you define the build the most fun for you. :)

[Gtdead]

A tomelock 3/sorc x can do A LOT of things. He can grab shillelagh for melee, guidance to get a pseudo jack of all trades, twin hastes and invisibilities, and have amazing ranged dpr with quickened EB+hex.

Now obviously staying at range is optimal since you will won't be able to pump dex till later, but if you like the idea for rp reasons, GFB hits like a truck with metamagics and you already have access to shield, mirror image and stoneskin since you start at lvl 10.

Start as sorcerer for con profs and then grab at least 2 warlock levels for EB, 3 if you want the cantrips for melee and skills. If you don't care about the cantrips you can go chain and get a better pet but I'm not very familiar with the new choices.

[chokathehutt]

2. Classic caster without CHA focus (start 16 and stay there): Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 8 (for extra feat) or Warlock 3 / Sorcerer 7 (for Chain/Tome pact): nearly the same as the precedent except that you spend ASI on feats only so would require Shadow Origin to really work. Chain is nice for magic resistance and scouting, Tome for cantrips and rituals.


After looking at it all night, that is what i want to try.
We will be in an urban (city) game, lots of RP interactions, i want to try Warlock3 (chain with Imp) / Sorcerer 7 (red dragon).
I love the idea of having my own spy running around the city, feeding me information.

I'll play a Tiefling, i will have 20 Cha, but after that, my highest stats are 14 in Dex and Con, the rest is lower.
Since, i'll have 9 str, i want to focus on the ranged aspect of the character.

Just not sure on what to focus as sorcerer to be effective to the party.
It seems we are gonna have 2 strong melee lads, i'll be sure to grab twinned haste, scorching ray, fireball, shield, besides that, not sure.
Thanks for all your inputs so far, it has helped.


Now obviously staying at range is optimal since you will won't be able to pump dex till later, but if you like the idea for rp reasons, GFB hits like a truck with metamagics and you already have access to shield, mirror image and stoneskin since you start at lvl 10.

What is GFB? explain more please. Thanks!

[PoeticDwarf]

Unless you have a specific RP goal in mind, I'd say try 8 Sorc/ 2 Warlock. That gives you 2 ASI's and still amazing at will dmg. Also since you can't cast 2 spells of level 1 or higher under normal circumstances (has to be a spell and cantrip according to the PHB) you can quicken and normal 1 action spell and still blast away with 2d10+Cha mod. Which is nice.

And after level 5 Eldritch Blast can't be Twinned since it can target 2 opponents. But your DM may feel differently, so definitely ask. Because if it is allowed, then yes. Double amount of beams.

I'd go this too. Maybe 3 warlock if you have pretty high stats. You still get something as polymorph but tomelock is amazing :D

[Citan]

After looking at it all night, that is what i want to try.
We will be in an urban (city) game, lots of RP interactions, i want to try Warlock3 (chain with Imp) / Sorcerer 7 (red dragon).
I love the idea of having my own spy running around the city, feeding me information.

I'll play a Tiefling, i will have 20 Cha, but after that, my highest stats are 14 in Dex and Con, the rest is lower.
Since, i'll have 9 str, i want to focus on the ranged aspect of the character.

Just not sure on what to focus as sorcerer to be effective to the party.
It seems we are gonna have 2 strong melee lads, i'll be sure to grab twinned haste, scorching ray, fireball, shield, besides that, not sure.
Thanks for all your inputs so far, it has helped.



What is GFB? explain more please. Thanks!
Glad we could help. ;)
GFB, sorry, it's Green Flame Blade, a (borderline op in some occasions) "melee cantrip" (you cast a cantrip that makes you do a melee weapon attack with added effect) that has been published in the Sword Coast's Adventurer Guide.

If you have two melee, indeed Twinned Haste can be good. Don't overlook Slow though, it may be far superior in several occasions: for example, if your two pals are outnumbered, face enemies with multiattack / strong enough attacks to hit even against high AC, or just if you just all have to run away.
(Reminder: Slow means, for 6 creatures: half-speed, -2 AC, only one attack per turn, risk of having spellcast delayed).
The big drawback though is, obviously, that the target creatures have to fail the saves. Whereas Haste is auto-success. :)
But when you manage to Slow a group of enemies, it's great ;) (cherry on top if a Cleric blesses your heavy weapon wielders ^^).

Blindness also is "mandatory" since blindness will effectively block many weapon attackers and even quite a few spells, and it's non-concentration to boot. \o/ (So you could combine a successful Blindness and twinned Haste).

For lvl 1, Chromatic Orb is a solid go-to attack spell. Lesser damage but always the right damage type for the job. :)
You could prefer Magic Missiles though, for the "auto-success" leisure.

Note that Scorching Ray is worth it only if your DM ignores the (very senseless imo) errata ruling that makes your Draconic bonus affect only the first damage roll or, at least, ignores it if you target a different creature with each ray (making it situationnally better than Fireball when targets are not clustered). Otherwise, considering how many good lvl2 spells are competing, I'd suggest forget it: Enhance Ability (great for many situations, especially if your pals want to Shove/Grapple, although for this particular case Enlarge is better), Mirror Image (non-concentration defense), Suggestion, See Invisibility...

Anyways, there is little chance you would ever choose a "bad" spell. I'd say, just check them all once now to see which ones you absolutely want. For the rest, you can decide when you gain levels during your campaign (you will also know better at the time whatever fits the best your group tactics). Just try to balance concentration and non-concentration spells, as combat / RP spells (for example, a well-used Subtle Suggestion could avoid you a whole ordeal ^^). ;)

[Saggo]

5. Melee fighter: Warlock 5 / Sorcerer 5: Blade warlock with lvl 5 invocation for extra attack. Imo it's strictly inferior to the previous ones (because the SCAG melee cantrips are so powerful), but I'm no expert on Bladelock so i'll let others speak on this. :)
Traditional Polearm Master build. Don't have SCAG on hand, so correct me if I'm wrong on cantrips. GFB extra damage is 2d8+4 (13), assuming 18 Cha. BB is roughly 3d8 (13.5). Extra attack + bonus attack would be, assuming 18 str and a quarterstaff, 1d10+4+1d4+4 (16). At level 11+, BB/GFB do an additional 2d8 (9) while Lifedrinker would net an additional 3*Cha (9-15). At 17+, you'll need GWM to compete against the last 2d8 increase.

This assumes you always have a second target or the target always moves. Against a single unmoving target, Bladelock is superior.

The point is it's not strictly inferior. It's essentially comparable, each build shining in different levels and situations, if that's the character concept someone wants. TWF is similar for the same reasons, except at 17+.


Thanks, maybe i should have said a bit more.
I want it to be ranged, not bladelock.
How does twinned spell works with EB?
Twice the amount of blasts?
I would assume they meant Quickened, which does work on Eldritch Blast and can double the beams (2 casts).

[Citan]

Traditional Polearm Master build. Don't have SCAG on hand, so correct me if I'm wrong on cantrips. GFB extra damage is 2d8+4 (13), assuming 18 Cha. BB is roughly 3d8 (13.5). Extra attack + bonus attack would be, assuming 18 str and a quarterstaff, 1d10+4+1d4+4 (16). At level 11+, BB/GFB do an additional 2d8 (9) while Lifedrinker would net an additional 3*Cha (9-15). At 17+, you'll need GWM to compete against the last 2d8 increase.

This assumes you always have a second target or the target always moves. Against a single unmoving target, Bladelock is superior.

The point is it's not strictly inferior. It's essentially comparable, each build shining in different levels and situations, if that's the character concept someone wants. TWF is similar for the same reasons, except at 17+.


I would assume they meant Quickened, which does work on Eldritch Blast and can double the beams (2 casts).
Thanks for the detail. Although I think you're wrong in this case.

When I was speaking of "strictly inferior", I was referring to 1) starting build with 10 levels available mixing Warlock and Sorcerer and 2) my build suggestion combining Draconic Sorcerer and if allowed Undying Light Warlock.
Let's just suppose, for the sake of argument, that we would compare builds that are both Draconic Sorcerer 8 / Warlock 12.
Note that Lifedrinker would apply to cantrips also, so we'll forget the Tome option to focus just on the comparison between extra attack and GFB/Booming Blade cantrip (considering either adequate Dragon Origin). We'll also put aside, for now, the potential extra damage of GFB.

Let's finally consider, for easier reading, that character has 18 CHA and 18 STR and Polearm Master.

BB/GFB-based with quarterstaff (for easier comparison)
1d8 (weapon) + STR modifier (melee attack) + 3d8 (cantrip bonus damage) + CHA (Lifedrinker) + CHA (Draconic).
In numbers, average: 18 (4d8) + 4 + 8 = 30.
Note that if Undying Light is allowed, you would add another +4 in the case of Green Flame Blade.

Extra Attack + Bonus action attack
(1d8+STR+CHA)*2 + (1d4+STR+CHA).
In numbers, average = (4,5+8)*2 + (2,5+8) = ~45.

So, obviously, Extra Attack is better right? ;)
Well, as you said, it depends.

First these optimum numbers come true at the end. Especially the Lifedrinker benefit which will come near the last levels if you want to have fun with Sorcerer soon enough.
Meanwhile, when you start, if you go Tomelock you lose the Lifedrinker benefit but become single-stat dependant, meaning easier build so better damage overall (better hit).

Second, when you put Sorcerer metamagic into the equation, it means that, while the Bladelock trumps Tomelock in standard turn, Tomelock can fill the gap as necessary with twin.

Third, if you put the GFB extra damage into balance, in the suggested build, it becomes better than Extra attack+Polearm Master throughout (even more so with Undylight Light Patron).

Fourth, GWM is not available to this build since no proficiency with heavy weapon. ;)

Fifth, using Polearm Master means you have to use the quarterstaff, so you have to use Strength, whereas cantrip allows you to use any weapon so you can build on DEX (which is much better with Draconic Sorcerer otherwise an interesting feature is wasted).

Finally, Hex would very clearly change the balance since it also procs on every attack, so Extra Attack + Lifedrinker would become the clear winner as soon as it's online (either with dual-wielding or Polearm Master).

But, since OP wants to keep concentration slot for other buffs/debuffs (Haste primarily), it means we cannot count on Hex as a basis. ;)

So, for OP character, Bladelock is strictly inferior. ;)

[Saggo]

You're proficient in your Blade Pact weapon, any Polearm and Heavy weapon is fair game.

OP indicated they wanted ranged, so the whole discussion was purely academic. I was just showing it was comparable even for a Warlock/Sorcerer, should one choose the concept. If I was optimizing, I would have them start with Fighter.

[chokathehutt]

You're proficient in your Blade Pact weapon, any Polearm and Heavy weapon is fair game.

OP indicated they wanted ranged, so the whole discussion was purely academic. I was just showing it was comparable even for a Warlock/Sorcerer, should one choose the concept. If I was optimizing, I would have them start with Fighter.

It's cool to discuss that, even though i wasn't fortunate to roll a high enough score for Str, i would have loved to try a bladelock :)