Robes of the Evil Archmagi and Character Evolution

[Delaney Gale]

My group is very close-knit. We started with a DM who loves story, my little brother, and myself. My bro and I are drama queens, so of course we ended up taking his roommates (new to RP) and turning them into method actor RPers, leaving us with a group that values character more than power. However, we've gotten to the level where we're looking longingly at the Epic Level Handbook with some realistic expectation of making it there, which means that there is a certain level of power involved. Three of us are playing two characters, and two are playing one, leaving us with a large party that is a royal pain to make encounters for (sorry DM!) but is amazing interaction and plot-line wise. I'm one of the people playing two characters, and this question focuses on my wizard.

After a long, drawn-out plot involving making enemies of two-thirds of the time-looped leadership of the major city of the region (my wizard is supposed to be the other third, hence the conflict), the cleric's player brings up a very good point. My wizard has changed. A lot. When we met, he was the epitome of selfish neutral evil, and had a deep fascination with everything dark and evil as well. Now, he actually *gasp!* TRUSTS people in the party. And is much more controlled with his destructive tendencies. And is subtle. Also completely paranoid and has deep-seated gender issues thanks to that other two-thirds of the leadership screwing with his gender as a child. Cleric argues that his alignment has changed. Normally, I'd go "Sure! Great! Alignment doesn't really matter, y'know?"

Except it does. Because he's wearing Robes of the Evil Archmagi. SR 20, +5 AC, and +4 to all saves vs. 2 negative levels matters.

I don't want him to become good. He's way too bitter and self-centered- he's just becoming more receptive to the party's way of doing things. If they let him off somewhere, he'd probably build a fortress and start acquiring Call-of-Chthulu-style forbidden knowledge. And become a lich. However, if the party showed up, he'd invite them in for tea and biscuits (but only because the cleric is necrophobic). In fact, if not neutral evil, I have no bloody idea what he would be.

As a player: it isn't really an option for me to not have any armor bonuses on a character at this level. Not wearing protective gear is like painting a large target right on the wizard's chest. I'm thinking I should just replace the robes with something non-alignment specific if he's going to be changing alignments, but I still feel that he's evil. The DM is quite too permissive with me, so I should be able to use one of our party's connections to get what I need. Any suggestions for what I can do for protection if I dump the Robes? Extra cookies if the idea incorporates a robe or robe-like item, I draw obsessively and almost always draw him in open robes with a shirt and breeches underneath. They're even Delaney's Evil Cookies.

As a DM (for curiosity's sake): How would you handle a situation like this? How defined of a change do you ask for when you're forcing a PC alignment change? What would you do if such an alignment change put the character that far behind the rest of the party balance-wise?

[Callix]

For the player conundrum: an evil character can have friends. The cleric might be one of them, and so doesn't get smote (smitten?) when he comes to tea. Just start brutally slaughtering your enemies in combat and reassert your evilness. If the dreaded alignment shift happens, swap robe colours. If you go neutral, the grey robes, while less cool-looking than the black, are still robes, and have the same bonuses.

Do I get a cookie?:smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

this is of course a bit hard to evaluate, when i dont have the stats on your char, but from what you say i get the fealing you are around lv 15+, and in that case with or without the robes bonus to ac, then any melee threat to you will be able to hit you.

a wizard of your lv doesnt survive because the opponents cant hit his Ac, they survive because they cant hit him, either due to invisibility, flying, being grappled by a bunch of tentakles or just being our of range.

that said i would recomend you selling your cloak, and getting something else like fx a ring of protection, or a amulet of natural armor.

[Delaney Gale]

Eh, you can have a cookie, but the grey robes (even neglecting the fact that they, being grey, do not have the equivalent saturation of badass) have been considered, and I think that he's going to be in a nebulous situation of alignment for a while- hence, non-alignment specific. Something he could wear if someone slammed a Helm of Opposing Alignment on over his (occasionally furry) hat.

Delaney: I have two disintegrate rays at WILL. Surely that counts as brutally slaughtering?!

*gives cookie*

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

... And is much more controlled with his destructive tendencies. And is subtle.
...
I don't want him to become good. He's way too bitter and self-centered- he's just becoming more receptive to the party's way of doing things. If they let him off somewhere, he'd probably build a fortress and start acquiring Call-of-Chthulu-style forbidden knowledge. And become a lich.

Destructive tendencies and becoming a Lich does not scream neutral.

He might have become Lawful Evil instead, depending on how exactly he has changed (cannot tell from your description), but if you are willing to go through the process of becoming a Lich you value personal gain very highly (Unspeakably evil process, RAW).

Bad guys sometimes have friends too. Just make sure that you always look out for number one.

[Tor the Fallen]

You could always use an illusion to make the robes black, or even predigistigitize.

[Callix]

Thanks for the cookie.

Bracers of Armor are a stock-standard choice for AC bonus. A Robe of Eyes, while again not badass, is at least creepy (or could be), and gives some nice anti-sneak-attack protection and bonuses on Spot and Search. A Robe of Bones, while not quite the SLA-Disintegrate type of item, has the [Evil] descriptor. Add a Mantle of Spell Resistance and you are only down 1 SR, or grab a Cloak of Resistance for the save boosts. There's plenty of options, but not something that gives you all of it. Also, Amulets of Natural Armor and Rings of Protection are put there for a reason. Use them.

[Delaney Gale]

I don't have any delusions of getting all of it, I'm just trying to rebuild an equipment set for him. Even downpowering it slightly would work, it would make it even more fun to play an extremely paranoid character.

Robe of Bones looks like a barrel of fun, but I doubt the necrophobic cleric would appreciate it. That and my boy casts necromancy spells once in a blue moon- he's more transmuter/evoker/illusionist than necromancer. Basically, his skills are making people believe he's someone he's not (he's been in hiding for four years or so), running away, and destroying things in a spectacular manner. *files away for next evil caster build anyway, because it's cool*

I think a set of Bracers of Armor would be a good way to go, definitely, and I think one of the other characters has a Amulet of Natural Armor they've been hoarding to sell that I could weasel out of them. A little on the "bread-and-butter" side for me, but it works (I love using weird stuff to improve my characters- my duelist is made incredibly powerful by a single 6000 gp item). Maybe I could homebrew a less-powerful robe with fun powers to take its place... hmm.

[Fixer]

In a campaign I got to play once (Literally, once) I got to play a Neutral Evil Bard. This bard was as friendly to everyone as you can imagine. He was charming, friendly, sociable, even likable.

Of course, when he wanted something he got it. Like, he decided he needed a new house. He found someone with a house they liked, befriended them, charmed them into writing a will with my PC as the beneficiary, and then took him out to a dungeon that my character knew had particularly vicious traps. The poor fellow fell victim to one of the traps (eventually, he took four, good saves) and my character returned to the town, and his new home, seeming extremely saddened by the loss of his 'friend'. He even asked around to see if someone would erect an illusion of his friend at the front of his house so he could be remembered always.

Of course the fellow was evil. That being nice business is simply to avoid becoming the target of the good guys. It was all an act. Ultimately, that character is/was only interested in himself and what he wanted. He did 'adventure' with other party members (from LE to CN) but he didn't actually care for any of them other than as potential meat shields and artillery. If one of them died he might pretend to care, but with that crew probably not. He would loot their bodies just as soon as look at them.

[Tallis]

Being evil doesn't mean you can't have friends. It doesn't mean you can't care about your friends. Friends will have an influence on how you act when they're arround. The real test of what kind of person you are is how you act on your own, without outside influences. Judging by that your wizard is still evil, he just tones it down so he can keep his friends. Some people just don't like being alone and they do what they have to to ensure that they're not. This is especially important for someone who lives a dangerous life. If they are the only ones he feels safe with, then it only makes sense to keep them happy.
Ultimately it's up to your DM's interpretation of events, but unless you'r egoing out of your way to do good deeds (with no selfish goal in mind), I don't see the need for an alignment change.

[DeathQuaker]

I don't want him to become good. He's way too bitter and self-centered- he's just becoming more receptive to the party's way of doing things. If they let him off somewhere, he'd probably build a fortress and start acquiring Call-of-Chthulu-style forbidden knowledge. And become a lich. However, if the party showed up, he'd invite them in for tea and biscuits (but only because the cleric is necrophobic). In fact, if not neutral evil, I have no bloody idea what he would be.

Well, if his alignment were shifting, he'd be neutral for a long time before he ever hit good. So him being "good" should be a non-issue.

If he's still truly acting out of selfish motivations and would kill or do other cruel things if it advanced his agenda efficiently, he's still evil. Right now, it's to his advantage to get along with the party. It's perfectly sensible for an evil character in your situation to still try to get along.

Now, if the character starts doing self-sacrificing things to protect the party, etc. then there's a matter of shift. But again, you shift to neutral before you ever get to good. That should be a very long time in development.



As a player: it isn't really an option for me to not have any armor bonuses on a character at this level. Not wearing protective gear is like painting a large target right on the wizard's chest. I'm thinking I should just replace the robes with something non-alignment specific if he's going to be changing alignments, but I still feel that he's evil. The DM is quite too permissive with me, so I should be able to use one of our party's connections to get what I need. Any suggestions for what I can do for protection if I dump the Robes? Extra cookies if the idea incorporates a robe or robe-like item, I draw obsessively and almost always draw him in open robes with a shirt and breeches underneath. They're even Delaney's Evil Cookies.

If you or someone else has item creation feats, creating a non-aligned robe that gives you a good AC bonus, etc. should not be too difficult or too much of a drain on party resources and XP, if you have a flexible and compromising GM. Or likewise hiring a wizard to do so might be worth the party's resources to pool and get for you. Especially since the robe itself is worth a lot of GP, which you could sell and put towards non-aligned items of protection.


As a DM (for curiosity's sake): How would you handle a situation like this? How defined of a change do you ask for when you're forcing a PC alignment change? What would you do if such an alignment change put the character that far behind the rest of the party balance-wise?

I would sit down with the player whose behavior I notice is changing. I would note to them that according to my perceptions, they appear to be tending towards good/evil actions and may be slowly moving towards an alignment shift. I would ask them about their motivations to make sure I am clear on them, and discuss with them the consequences of an alignment shift should they happen.

If the player explained their motivations and that clearly and definitively showed me they were NOT actually behaving outside of their alignment, I would not pursue it further.

If the player agreed with me that yes, their behavior is changing because of good roleplaying reasons, and yes, they are not as good/evil/lawful/purple as it used to be, I would note that, "Continued, consistent behavior in this vein will result in an alignment shift within 2-4 sessions." I'd note that there'd be no shift if the behavior did not continue--but I'd also want to be sure the player had legitimate roleplay reasons to continue or discontinue the behavior, as the case may be. I would want the shift, or lack thereof, be based accurately upon the player's roleplaying and motivations as possible.

Now, I very rarely give out aligned equipment in my games; this avoids certain potential problems. However, if I found that this was about to deprive a character of an ability or item, I'd again be sure to give them adequate warning, and I would include something in the game which would allow them to cope/support the party until the transition could be properly made (new item acquired, etc.).

[LeeMon]

I didn't see enough specifics to make a judgement call myself, so I'll simply say this:

Good people are willing to risk/endanger themselves, or endure some negative consequence/cost/damage, for the benefit of others.

Evil people are willing to risk/endanger others, or cause (directly or indirectly) some negative consequence/cost/damage to others, for their own benefit.

Neutral people generally don't like putting unnecessary risk upon themselves for others who are not important to them, but then, they don't generally feel a desire to get ahead at others' expense, either.

Where does your character lie with regards to these morals?

[Delaney Gale]

I think the main judgement call that's come into play is that if he stayed in this city, he would keep about 100000 people from being destroyed slowly by magical chaos. It's a balance thing- there need to be three leaders, and all of them are the same person for about a millenium. Its a little complex and I really need to make a template for it. However, he was psychologically scarred by the other two leaders, so the largely CN party agreed with his position of not wanting to go back to leading the city and helped him escape when he was captured. So he put about one hundred thousand people in danger for a combination of a desire for his own freedom and revenge against the two leaders who screwed him up as a kid- not out of any desire to get the innocent bystanders hurt. In fact, he would rather prefer to not destroy the city. I think he's neutral evil still, just a different sort of neutral evil than he was when he came into the game.

[magicwalker]

If he can be considered a leader of this city that he's protecting by not being around.. then it is still self-serving evil-goodness =)

...I mean evil evilness

[EagleWiz]

Pay a wizard to make robes of the any alignment archmagi, then kill him and take the money.
Problem solved.

[Delaney Gale]

Pay a wizard to make robes of the any alignment archmagi, then kill him and take the money.
Problem solved.

Wait, wouldn't that get me right back where I started- an evil character wearing Robes of the Archmagi? :D The idea amuses me greatly!

[Tallis]

I think the main judgement call that's come into play is that if he stayed in this city, he would keep about 100000 people from being destroyed slowly by magical chaos. It's a balance thing- there need to be three leaders, and all of them are the same person for about a millenium. Its a little complex and I really need to make a template for it. However, he was psychologically scarred by the other two leaders, so the largely CN party agreed with his position of not wanting to go back to leading the city and helped him escape when he was captured. So he put about one hundred thousand people in danger for a combination of a desire for his own freedom and revenge against the two leaders who screwed him up as a kid- not out of any desire to get the innocent bystanders hurt. In fact, he would rather prefer to not destroy the city. I think he's neutral evil still, just a different sort of neutral evil than he was when he came into the game.

He's willing to risk the well-being of 100,000 people for personal happiness? Even if he had second thoughts about it, his final decision was still a selfish one. Sounds pretty clearly evil to me.

[Tallis]

Wait, wouldn't that get me right back where I started- an evil character wearing Robes of the Archmagi? :D The idea amuses me greatly!

At least then you wouldn't have to consider any future alignment shifts from anything other than a roleplaying standpoint.