Highest single target damage class?

[NewDM]

Which is the highest single target damage class (no multi-classing) feats are allowed, but no magic items. Standard races only and no UA. Please post builds with estimated damage using the following formula (or something similar). Level 20. The average hit chance and save failure chance for most characters is between 60% and 70% so we will say 65%:

Base damage average for example: 1d12+4+1d8+3 average 18.
Base crit damage average (ex. see above with extra dice)
((Hit chance % - crit chance %) * average damage) + (crit chance % * average crit damage) = Damage Per Round.

Nova attacks should be divided by the number of attacks in a standard day. A standard day is 6-8 encounters so we will say 7 encounters. Most encounter last 3-7 rounds, we'll say 5 rounds average. 5 * 7 = 35 rounds. So if a nova deals 140 damage, averaged (140 / 35) it will deal 4.

So what are your single class builds?

[wunderkid]

Small question on your nova. Where did 245 come from?

And if you take nova damage and apply that across all the rounds then you're ignoring that classes base round to round damage.

For example a paladin can nova on X rounds dependant on spell slots. The rest of the rounds he still outputs damage just not as much of it.

[HoarsHalberd]

Half-Orc Barbarian. Polearm master+gwm. Assuming an average 50% chance to hit before advantage. 0.6975(2(5.5+7+10+4)+(2.5+7+10+4))+0.0975(2(33+7+4 )+(15+7+10+4))=65.45~ DPR. If you wanted to squeeze a little extra out you could carry a greataxe as well and go frenzy and use the axe for one combat a day. But it's not really relevant. (And the added survivability of totem may well enable you to do reckless attack all day better as well.)

Also, the level 20 Barbarian would have a higher hit chance from the +13 to hit before magic items as opposed to the +11 for all other melee weapon users.

[NewDM]

Small question on your nova. Where did 245 come from?

And if you take nova damage and apply that across all the rounds then you're ignoring that classes base round to round damage.

For example a paladin can nova on X rounds dependant on spell slots. The rest of the rounds he still outputs damage just not as much of it.

245 is 7 encounter average in a day * 5 rounds per combat average. Since the DMG states 6-8 encounters per day, I just took the middle. A combination of my personal experience and the experiences of others leads to around 5 rounds average for combat.

You are meant to add the nova spread out to the normal damage. Especially in the case of Paladins since they nova by adding to existing attacks.


Half-Orc Barbarian. Polearm master+gwm. Assuming an average 50% chance to hit before advantage. 0.6975(2(5.5+7+10+4)+(2.5+7+10+4))+0.0975(2(33+7+4 )+(15+7+10+4))=65.45~ DPR. If you wanted to squeeze a little extra out you could carry a greataxe as well and go frenzy and use the axe for one combat a day. But it's not really relevant. (And the added survivability of totem may well enable you to do reckless attack all day better as well.)

Also, the level 20 Barbarian would have a higher hit chance from the +13 to hit before magic items as opposed to the +11 for all other melee weapon users.

Can you expand where you are getting 0.6975 and 0.0975? are those hit and crit percents? Barbarians get 2 attacks at level 5. The average hit chance is 65% normally but a level 20 barbarian is actually at 75% so 70% hit and 5% crit.

Their attack bonus at level 20 is +7(str)+6(prof.)-5(GWM) = +8. With advantage from reckless attack that's 69.75% vs AC 20 which is the most common at level 20.

2 attacks with 1 bonus attack. Where is the last attack coming from? Both PAMs and GWM bonus attacks require a bonus action, meaning you get one or the other.

[bid]

245 is 7 encounter average in a day * 5 rounds per combat average.
7 * 5 = 35

7 * 7 * 5 = 245

[NewDM]

7 * 5 = 35

7 * 7 * 5 = 245

lol, my bad. Its past my bedtime here.

[PeteNutButter]

But whole point of NOVAing is to reduce the number of rounds combat lasts...

[NewDM]

But whole point of NOVAing is to reduce the number of rounds combat lasts...

Most combats aren't going to be against single opponents so novaing won't affect combat time that much and in most cases anything over 70 damage is probably going to be wasted.

[Foxhound438]

in most cases anything over 70 damage is probably going to be wasted.

seems too generalized to discount the times when nova drops the BBEG to 1/3 health and leaves you fighting his weaksauce mooks.

So for my build it's [insert full caster L20] perma-TP'd into a pit fiend. +14 to hit means closer to 80% hit chance on average. its 4 attacks combined average 99 on all hits, plus a very high con save against 21 extra dpr from poison. I'd say a relevant target would expectably have a 50% chance of succeeding.

.75(99)+.8(.5)(21)+.05(167) = 91 DPR against a single target.

Wall of fire gives an extra 5d8 dpr when it's needed, and its opaqueness combined with your truesight means you can get advantage out of it for a round if you play it smart as well. If you want to be extra cheeky, if you manage to grapple your enemy you can move them in and out of the wall for another 5d8 dpr. Hold monster of course churns out huge damage when just one of your attacks is basically fireball on a stick every round.

[PeteNutButter]

seems too generalized to discount the times when nova drops the BBEG to 1/3 health and leaves you fighting his weaksauce mooks.


^this.

You are basically saying that NOVA does nothing, which cannot be true at all. I've ended my share of encounters by NOVAing on round 1. Mooks are no real threat, if the whole party can focus them.

The point is your attempting normalize the combat rounds per day, but combat rounds are in a near direct relationship with damage output. A party of glass cannons would win or lose most fights in 1-2 rounds, while a party of tanks could take most fights to 10+ rounds.

I'd say a more accurate way would be to come up with some kind of weighted average between NOVAing, how often one can do it, and their normal non-resource consuming damage.

My paladorc has made short work of many nasty BBEGs with quickened hold monster and a couple max level smites, which autocrit if they failed their save. "Ok, I'm going need to borrow some d8s..."

[Zalabim]

Nova attacks should be divided by the number of attacks in a standard day. A standard day is 6-8 encounters so we will say 7 encounters. Most encounter last 3-7 rounds, we'll say 5 rounds average. 5 * 7 = 35 rounds. So if a nova deals 140 damage, averaged (140 / 35) it will deal 4.

In case this goes on for a while, 6-8 medium to hard encounters per day is wrong. It is incorrect. It disagrees with the rest of the DMG advice in its section.

For simplicity, at level 20, it would be 7 bare minimum medium encounters to 4.7 bare minimum hard encounters, or taking the middle of all possible medium to hard encounters it's 4.33 encounters. Looking at the maximum for a hard encounter, it's 3.15 encounters. So for level 20, the range is 3 to 7 medium to hard encounters, with an average around 5.

Now instead of assuming a total rounds of combat, it would be more accurate to come up with something like a Time To Kill, or a rounds to reach a target total damage number. For example, a single CR 20 is a medium encounter for a group of 4, has an expected AC of 19, an HP between 356 and 400, and 6.4 of them will fill a day's expected XP of encounters. If we take that half-orc barbarian for 35 rounds, it does 2290.75 out of the total 2419.2 HP of enemies faced this average day. I supposed the other three party members are sipping mimosas while he fights.

Single enemies have less total HP than groups of enemies, but this is a single target comparison. So we need to guess how much of the damage the highest damage PC is expected to contribute. Does half sound good? 189 per encounter, 1209.6 per day, or 200/1300 for round numbers. The rest is picked up by the other PCs with lower single target damage or AoE attacks.

Alternatively, we can assign a value of DPR to the non-testing parties, and count rounds using a combination of contributions. There's probably room for a whole thread on "how much damage do you really have to do."

40,000 XP per day per PC at 20. 10,000 XP per PC is a Hard encounter. A normal party would face 4 of these, one for each PC.

A) 1 CR 22,
A) has 468 avg HP and AC 19.
or B) 2 CR 15,
B) has 576 total HP and AC 18.
or C) 4 CR 9,
C) has 792 total HP and AC 16.
or D) 9 CR 5,
D) has 1242 total HP and AC 15.
or E) 12 CR 4,
E) has 1476 total HP and AC 14.
or F) 15 CR 3.
F) has 1620 total HP and AC 13.

Altogether, 1029 HP per encounter, 7 1/6 enemies per encounter, avg AC of 14 15/43. If you can deal over 1000 damage to the higher AC targets in one day you've probably done your job.

[Gtdead]

It's fighter. Hands down.
Perhaps you can find a class that can match him, like a melee sorcerer with gwm+2xgfb+haste that does about 103 dpr compared to fighter's 105~(without action surge or maneuvers), or a paladin (oathbreaker/devotion), that can match him against high ac targets because of smites and +cha to dmg, but the fact remains that if I had to choose, I'd buff the fighter to kill the dragon any time of the day.

Fighter is the only class that can reliably burst down extremely high acs. A lvl 20 fighter with precision strike,haste bless and foresight will deal huge damage against even an AC of 25 (I calculated about 140~ per action surge without magic weapons, it gets 180+ with a +3). Nothing else comes close, especially when legendary resistances are considered.

Mind you, fighter isn't the highest overall dpr class. In fact under normal conditions a sorcerer will probably beat him by just twinning and quickening firebolt (or just quickening EB if he is a sorlock) ,which he can do for the whole day if he likes, and use 6+ spell level slots for disintegrates and meteorswarm. Hell even a tempest cleric by just casting Call Lightning against single targets and managing CD will match him.

He is however the most reliable by far.

[Firechanter]

A lot of very valid complaints have been made on the premise, and I need to add one more:
If you completely ignore magic items, your results will be useless.
Just for one thing, you'll have to cut all physical damage output by half because practically all higher-CR monsters have Resistance vs nonmagical damage.

Secondly, well I don't know about you and your table, but I don't think my group has ever had "6-8 average encounters" per adventuring day. We'd just walk all over them individually. Our DM likes to bundle encounters; sometimes up to Triple Deadly. A "Deadly" encounter is usually no problem for a moderately optimized party.

Also, I agree on the effectiveness of going Nova. It can reduce the duration of an encounter by 60% easily. Zalabim offers a very good approach: "How many rounds do you need to deal X damage?"
However, his followup question "How much damage do you NEED to do?" is also a very valid one and should be answered first. As a very rough testing benchmark, I'd say anywhere between half and two-thirds is probably a good idea. Ah what the hell, we'll make another thread for that.

[PeteNutButter]

Secondly, well I don't know about you and your table, but I don't think my group has ever had "6-8 average encounters" per adventuring day. We'd just walk all over them individually. Our DM likes to bundle encounters; sometimes up to Triple Deadly. A "Deadly" encounter is usually no problem for a moderately optimized party.

I'd second this very heavily, but rather than just provide anecdotal evidence on this topic I like to point out that none of the published adventure modules(campaign books and AL mods) even remotely follow the encounter guidelines in the DMG.

Although fun is of course subjective, most tables soon find out the game is more fun with fewer more challenging encounters.

Also I'll second that a BM archer probably has the best math on DPR, possibly even after enemy resistance to his non-magical bow. Assuming he is solo, I suppose an Eldritch Knight could do better if there are no magic items, by casting something like magic weapon.

[NewDM]

^this.

You are basically saying that NOVA does nothing, which cannot be true at all. I've ended my share of encounters by NOVAing on round 1. Mooks are no real threat, if the whole party can focus them.

The point is your attempting normalize the combat rounds per day, but combat rounds are in a near direct relationship with damage output. A party of glass cannons would win or lose most fights in 1-2 rounds, while a party of tanks could take most fights to 10+ rounds.

I'd say a more accurate way would be to come up with some kind of weighted average between NOVAing, how often one can do it, and their normal non-resource consuming damage.

My paladorc has made short work of many nasty BBEGs with quickened hold monster and a couple max level smites, which autocrit if they failed their save. "Ok, I'm going need to borrow some d8s..."

Ok, what if we look at average hp of monsters compared to average damage per attack ignoring extra damage and then for novas we go with max hp of monsters.


In case this goes on for a while, 6-8 medium to hard encounters per day is wrong. It is incorrect. It disagrees with the rest of the DMG advice in its section.

For simplicity, at level 20, it would be 7 bare minimum medium encounters to 4.7 bare minimum hard encounters, or taking the middle of all possible medium to hard encounters it's 4.33 encounters. Looking at the maximum for a hard encounter, it's 3.15 encounters. So for level 20, the range is 3 to 7 medium to hard encounters, with an average around 5.

Now instead of assuming a total rounds of combat, it would be more accurate to come up with something like a Time To Kill, or a rounds to reach a target total damage number. For example, a single CR 20 is a medium encounter for a group of 4, has an expected AC of 19, an HP between 356 and 400, and 6.4 of them will fill a day's expected XP of encounters. If we take that half-orc barbarian for 35 rounds, it does 2290.75 out of the total 2419.2 HP of enemies faced this average day. I supposed the other three party members are sipping mimosas while he fights.

Single enemies have less total HP than groups of enemies, but this is a single target comparison. So we need to guess how much of the damage the highest damage PC is expected to contribute. Does half sound good? 189 per encounter, 1209.6 per day, or 200/1300 for round numbers. The rest is picked up by the other PCs with lower single target damage or AoE attacks.

Alternatively, we can assign a value of DPR to the non-testing parties, and count rounds using a combination of contributions. There's probably room for a whole thread on "how much damage do you really have to do."

40,000 XP per day per PC at 20. 10,000 XP per PC is a Hard encounter. A normal party would face 4 of these, one for each PC.

A) 1 CR 22,
A) has 468 avg HP and AC 19.
or B) 2 CR 15,
B) has 576 total HP and AC 18.
or C) 4 CR 9,
C) has 792 total HP and AC 16.
or D) 9 CR 5,
D) has 1242 total HP and AC 15.
or E) 12 CR 4,
E) has 1476 total HP and AC 14.
or F) 15 CR 3.
F) has 1620 total HP and AC 13.

Altogether, 1029 HP per encounter, 7 1/6 enemies per encounter, avg AC of 14 15/43. If you can deal over 1000 damage to the higher AC targets in one day you've probably done your job.

The first half of your post actually favors limited use characters because you say 2 less encounters per day or 5 encounters per day average.

The second half can be dealt with easier with what I posted above. The idea isn't to see if everyone contributed their share of damage, its to see who does the highest single target damage.


It's fighter. Hands down.
Perhaps you can find a class that can match him, like a melee sorcerer with gwm+2xgfb+haste that does about 103 dpr compared to fighter's 105~(without action surge or maneuvers), or a paladin (oathbreaker/devotion), that can match him against high ac targets because of smites and +cha to dmg, but the fact remains that if I had to choose, I'd buff the fighter to kill the dragon any time of the day.

Fighter is the only class that can reliably burst down extremely high acs. A lvl 20 fighter with precision strike,haste bless and foresight will deal huge damage against even an AC of 25 (I calculated about 140~ per action surge without magic weapons, it gets 180+ with a +3). Nothing else comes close, especially when legendary resistances are considered.

Mind you, fighter isn't the highest overall dpr class. In fact under normal conditions a sorcerer will probably beat him by just twinning and quickening firebolt (or just quickening EB if he is a sorlock) ,which he can do for the whole day if he likes, and use 6+ spell level slots for disintegrates and meteorswarm. Hell even a tempest cleric by just casting Call Lightning against single targets and managing CD will match him.

He is however the most reliable by far.

lol, you are talking about at least 2 casters buffing the fighter with once a day spells. That's called a group nova and seriously, as a caster I'd hit up the barbarian before the fighter simply because they counteract GWM -5 with their permanent advantage from Reckless attack, and I wouldn't have to use foresight.

If you spread that damage out across the 7 encounters per day with 5 rounds average or 35 rounds and you end up with 4 average per day over their normal attack DPR. If we go with the above 5 encounters per day with 5 rounds each we end with 25 rounds for an increase of 5.6 DPR with that nova over the course of the day.

In another thread someone came up with a Barbarian that deals 80+ damage per round without a nova. That's the highest I've seen so far.


I'd second this very heavily, but rather than just provide anecdotal evidence on this topic I like to point out that none of the published adventure modules(campaign books and AL mods) even remotely follow the encounter guidelines in the DMG.

Although fun is of course subjective, most tables soon find out the game is more fun with fewer more challenging encounters.

Also I'll second that a BM archer probably has the best math on DPR, possibly even after enemy resistance to his non-magical bow. Assuming he is solo, I suppose an Eldritch Knight could do better if there are no magic items, by casting something like magic weapon.

Yeah, I've seen the modules. They throw out 5x deadly encounters and worse. The excuse is that they were being made at the same time as 5E, but didn't get updated before release to the final rules. I disregard them due to this, from any discussion of DPR.

People, can you please post the math if you make a claim like "a BM archer probably has the best math on DPR,"

[Gtdead]

lol, you are talking about at least 2 casters buffing the fighter with once a day spells. That's called a group nova and seriously, as a caster I'd hit up the barbarian before the fighter simply because they counteract GWM -5 with their permanent advantage from Reckless attack, and I wouldn't have to use foresight.

If you spread that damage out across the 7 encounters per day with 5 rounds average or 35 rounds and you end up with 4 average per day over their normal attack DPR. If we go with the above 5 encounters per day with 5 rounds each we end with 25 rounds for an increase of 5.6 DPR with that nova over the course of the day.

In another thread someone came up with a Barbarian that deals 80+ damage per round without a nova. That's the highest I've seen so far.


Can you provide a link for the barbarian?
My numbers are against a tarrasque level ac without any magic items at all.

If a fighter with foresight, haste and bless can hardly reach 50 dpr against the tarrasque without nova, there is no chance in hell a barbarian can do that much better without a ton of magic items. Barbarian can hardly reach 80 dpr against 5 AC. Unless he crits in every single hit. With haste and bless it's possible though.

[NewDM]

Can you provide a link for the barbarian?
My numbers are against a tarrasque level ac without any magic items at all.

If a fighter with foresight, haste and bless can hardly reach 50 dpr against the tarrasque without nova, there is no chance in hell a barbarian can do that much better without a ton of magic items. Barbarian can hardly reach 80 dpr against 5 AC. Unless he crits in every single hit. With haste and bless it's possible though.

Here is the quote:



...
So, Barbarian, PAM and GWM.

If the fighter was hitting on a 0.35 in your example. The barbarian hits on a 0.45

0.35(4(5.5+5+0.75+10)+(2.5+0.5+5+10))+0.05(4(11+5+ 1.5+10)+(5+5+1+10)) = 42.6

(1-(1-0.4)^2)(2(5.5+7+10)+(2.5+7+10+4))+(0.0975)(2(5.5+5 .5+5.5+5.5+5.5+7+10+4)+(2.5+2.5+2.5+2.5+2.5+7+10+4 ))=56.56

The difference here in DPR is almost 14...

... GWF. for a d12 it adds an average of 0.83 per d12 rolled. http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47172/how-much-damage-does-great-weapon-fighting-add-on-average



Unnecessary parts removed.

Let's break down their math:

Most common armor class at CR 20 is AC 20.

A Barbarian is going to have +7 ability score, +6 proficiency for a total of +13. Using reckless attack grants advantage. With GWM their attack roll is reduced to +8. They hit AC 20 about 69.75% of the time. They crit about 9.75% of that time.

They get 2 attacks and deal 1d10(weapon) + 7 (str) + 10(GWM) +4(rage) avg. = 26.5 on a hit and 3d10(weapon) + 7(str) +10(GWM) +4(rage) avg. = 37.5 on a crit.

They also get an extra attack from Pole arm master that deals 1d4(PAM) +7(str)+10(GWM)+4(rage) avg. = 23.5. On a crit it deals 3d4(PAM)+7(str)+10(GWM)+4(rage) avg. = 28.5

Normal Attacks
Hit 60% * 26.5 = 15.9
Crit 9.75% * 37.5 = 3.65625
Total = 19.55625
x2 = 39.1125

PAM attack
Hit 60% * 23.5 = 14.1
Crit 9.75% * 28.5 = 2.77875
Total = 16.87875

Grand Total = 55.99125

With Opportunity attack from PAM = 75.5475 (not guaranteed every round)

Without any spells. If you swap PAM for Haste, Bless (+2.5 to attack roll), and a 1d12 weapon:

They get 3 attacks and deal 1d12(weapon) + 7 (str) + 10(GWM) +4(rage) avg. = 27.5 on a hit and 3d12(weapon) + 7(str) +10(GWM) +4(rage) avg. = 40.5 on a crit.

Normal Attacks
Hit 72.5% * 27.5 = 19.9375
Crit 9.75% * 40.5 =3.94875
Total = 23.88625
x3 = 71.65875

Grand Total=71.65875

Let's not stop there though, lets get the Paladin to stack on elemental weapon. That's an additional +1 to attack and 1d4 damage on each hit:

Normal Attacks
Hit 77.5% * 30 = 23.25
Crit 9.75% * 43 = 4.1925
Total = 27.4425
x3 = 71.65875

Grand Total=82.3275

As long as everyone stacks their spells on the Barbarian, its the top DPR so far. Minus shenanigans like true polymorph, or infinite simulicra chains.

[Vogonjeltz]

Which is the highest single target damage class (no multi-classing) feats are allowed, but no magic items. Standard races only and no UA. Please post builds with estimated damage using the following formula (or something similar). Level 20. The average hit chance and save failure chance for most characters is between 60% and 70% so we will say 65%:

Base damage average for example: 1d12+4+1d8+3 average 18.
Base crit damage average (ex. see above with extra dice)
((Hit chance % - crit chance %) * average damage) + (crit chance % * average crit damage) = Damage Per Round.

Nova attacks should be divided by the number of attacks in a standard day. A standard day is 6-8 encounters so we will say 7 encounters. Most encounter last 3-7 rounds, we'll say 5 rounds average. 5 * 7 = 35 rounds. So if a nova deals 140 damage, averaged (140 / 35) it will deal 4.

So what are your single class builds?

Are you asking for sustained or burst?

Champion has the highest sustained, Battlemaster has the higher burst.

[Foxhound438]

[...]

Let's not stop there though, lets get the Paladin to stack on elemental weapon. That's an additional +1 to attack and 1d4 damage on each hit:

[...]
As long as everyone stacks their spells on the Barbarian, its the top DPR so far. Minus shenanigans like true polymorph, or infinite simulicra chains.

I wouldn't call TP a "shenanigans" tactic. Full casters get it, and no DM leniency required you can concentrate for an hour on that sucker to be whatever you want for forever. That means, no DM leniency required, no needing paladins to pump your damage for you, no needing haste from another teammate, you get higher DPR than the guy getting buffed by the entire damn party, as I've shown above.

[NewDM]

I wouldn't call TP a "shenanigans" tactic. Full casters get it, and no DM leniency required you can concentrate for an hour on that sucker to be whatever you want for forever. That means, no DM leniency required, no needing paladins to pump your damage for you, no needing haste from another teammate, you get higher DPR than the guy getting buffed by the entire damn party, as I've shown above.

Well it is RAW. Most DMs would either not allow it or turn the character into an NPC, but it is RAW. It doesn't last forever, but only until you reach 0 hit points. After 1 hour of concentrating the caster no longer has to concentrate to maintain it. However it can be recast every day and is essentially a crap ton of temporary hp with benefits. Of course no caster would ever nerf themselves like that and it would likely get used on the Fighter or Barbarian, but they wouldn't be able to use their weapons "The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.".

The Pit Fiend would lose its mace attack, reducing its overall effectiveness in combat.
It would be left with 19 AC, 300 hp, fly 60', resistance against cold and weapon damage (because who silvers their enchanted weapons?), fear aura, advantage on spell saves, natural weapons count as magical, fireball at-will.

Lets pit it against the most common player AC of 16 and saves of +5 (prof. or ability bonus).

Bite + Claw + Tail
Hit 90% * (22 + 17 + 24.5) = 57.15
Crit 5% * (36 + 26 + 41) = 5.15

Poison from Bite
DC 21 save chance of 25% for no damage, damage 75% of the time. 6d6 damage (21) * 0.75= 15.75

Total = 78.05

So far that's the highest, being 7 points over a non-buffed barbarian.

[Foxhound438]

"The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment.".


pretty sure that line refers to the equipment that merged into it when it transformed. In context: "The target's gear melds into the new form. [your quote]"

Otherwise, by more of a RAI interpretation you would be replacing the mace attack with a second claw attack. you would be switching the mace (weapon) for an empty hand, aka claw (different weapon); DMG 273.

[NewDM]

pretty sure that line refers to the equipment that merged into it when it transformed. In context: "The target's gear melds into the new form. [your quote]"

It could, but then why didn't they put a semi-colon or a comma? Of course they fail to put spaces in words like "spellcasting" so it might be a pure grammatical error. Some DMs might read RAW and say no weapons. Even if they could drop their gear then pick up the weapons and use them, they would get only one attack because they lose all their class abilities and must abide by the abilities of the new form, meaning multi-attack wouldn't work, unless they own a mace.


Otherwise, by more of a RAI interpretation you would be replacing the mace attack with a second claw attack. you would be switching the mace (weapon) for an empty hand, aka claw (different weapon); DMG 273.

Sure, but multi-attack only works with a mace.

[Foxhound438]

It could, but then why didn't they put a semi-colon or a comma? Of course they fail to put spaces in words like "spellcasting" so it might be a pure grammatical error. Some DMs might read RAW and say no weapons. Even if they could drop their gear then pick up the weapons and use them, they would get only one attack because they lose all their class abilities and must abide by the abilities of the new form, meaning multi-attack wouldn't work, unless they own a mace.

seems like an exercise in semantic games.

And if you own a mace, set it down, TP, pick it up again, your stat block says your mace does an extra 6d6 fire damage, by that level of asininity.

And by the same level of asininity, you use the multiattack option, and it says make a mace attack, so you make a mace attack. even if you don't have a mace.


Sure, but multi-attack only works with a mace.

you replace the instance of [weapon A] with [weapon B] when changing a creature's weapons. Otherwise it might as well be a game of "I win", hosted by the DM.



()'s sake, I consider myself a stickler when it comes to RAW but the words in the book aren't C++ or HTTP. the game itself doesn't stop functioning if something's one letter off.

No intelligent DM would say that the Pit Fiend not having a mace would exclude one of its attacks altogether because then later they have to hold themselves to that same standard. Every character you ever make is a battlemaster fighter with disarming attack, you disarm the opponent and all of a sudden they can only punch you once. No grab a stick and hit you twice or thrice, because "its multiattack doesn't work with improvised weapons or unarmed strike".

[PoeticDwarf]

You ask class. Looking at class it is in general fighter.

[NewDM]

You ask class. Looking at class it is in general fighter.

Math proof please, or at least a link?

In the other thread, I just compared a battle master fighter with a blade singer and the fighter only beat the blade singer by 4.x damage.

[Gtdead]

For simplicity's sake I'll go with an EK SS build to avoid crits and maneuvers. He can just haste himself.

Sharpshooter Fighter, no subclass, not counting criticals.

Basic attack
3.5+5=8.5, 18.5 with Sharp shooter.
5 per round (4 attack action +1 bonus action): 18.5x5= 92.5 dpr

Attack roll +13, SS 13-5=8
Against 20 AC, 40% chance to hit.
92.5*0.4=

37 DPR

Pretty unimpressive. Lets start adding buffs.

Haste: (Self Buff)

Extra attack for 18.5, total of 111

111*0.4=44.4

Bless (Cleric or Paladin)

+2.5 to hit, grant total of 52.5, let's say 50 for simplicity's sake

111*0.5= 55.5

Lowest level magic weapon (Wizard)

Hit goes to 55%, damage to 19.5

116*0.55=63.8

Still unimpressive.

So by now you are right, Barbarian stacks better with simple buffs because he has advantage on attacks due to rage.
This means that the small buffs will stack better with him against high AC.

Earlier I talked about Foresight. The point of this spell is that it lasts for 8 hours, no concentration, gives both offensive advantage, saves and blur effect which is amazing for any frontliner.
Rage already gives advantage, so Barbarian will not get any benefit from Foresight. And even if he gets Foresight, he doesn't have access to the extra Rage damage.

Fighter can however, raising his chance to hit to 80%,

116*0.80=93 Final DPR Ranged.

With the same buffs, PAM does
129.5*0.7=90, 106 with AoO

Foresight completely ****s on rage and 4 classes have access to it.
Not only fighter becomes the ultimate killing machine with it, but it only gets better with Action Surge
A 20 lvl fighter can do an average of 400 dmg in 2 rounds per short rest. More as a battlemaster with precision.
And in a game with a lot of magic items, fighter will just keep outclassing barbarian because he scales better.

Also there are other guys to get advantage. Even at lower levels, an enlarge person can allow the fighter to shove up to huge creatures. The trade is always worth it against 17+ AC at lvl 11.
And there is always the chance of having a wolf barbarian (which imo is a no brainer in a party with 2 melee builds, bear totem is convenient but not the absolute defensive ability).

So as I said, fighter not the highest dpr in the game overall, but if I had to buff any class to kill the bad guy, I'd choose fighter.

Edit: Fixed a mistake.
Double edit: I made another mistake, my numbers are against 21 AC. Add about 4 dpr for 20.

[Giant2005]

The highest sustainable DPR goes to a Champion with PAM, GWM, and Mounted Combatant.
The highest self-buffed DPR goes to a Vengeance Paladin with PAM, GWM, and Mounted Combatant.
The highest party-buffed DPR goes to the Battlemaster Fighter with PAM and GWM (MC is unimportant if Foresight is given to him); or the Champion with the same feats/buffs if the combined combats between short rests are expected to last long enough for the Champion's expanded criticals to surpass the Battlemaster's Superiority Dice.

[HoarsHalberd]

The highest sustainable DPR goes to a Champion with PAM, GWM, and Mounted Combatant.
The highest self-buffed DPR goes to a Vengeance Paladin with PAM, GWM, and Mounted Combatant.
The highest party-buffed DPR goes to the Battlemaster Fighter with PAM and GWM (MC is unimportant if Foresight is given to him); or the Champion with the same feats/buffs if the combined combats between short rests are expected to last long enough for the Champion's expanded criticals to surpass the Battlemaster's Superiority Dice.

Well firstly mounted combatant isn't exactly sustainable unless you use a small race. Urban, dungeons, castles, underwater, on mountains all prelude the use of mounts unless you can get a flying mount. The vast majority of combats take place, in D&D, in places you won't reliably have access to your mount.

Assuming a target AC of 20

Your fighter = 5((0.2)(6.5+5+10)+(0.15)(13+5+10)) = 42.5 vs medium or larger
=5((1-0.8^2)(6.5+5+10)+(0.2775)(13+5+10)) = 77.55 vs small or tiny targets. (Of which you won't be fighting many)
Half-Orc Barbarian = 2((1-0.6^2)(5.5+7+4+10)+(0.0975)(33+7+4+10))+((1-0.6^2)(2.5+7+4+10)+(0.0975)(15+7+4+10)) = 63

In most level 20 fights, the reliable DPR goes to barbarian. (Especially if you go Beserker and simply don't use the frenzy feature.)

[Spacehamster]

Not home atm but a high elf assassin with booming blade as cantrip should be pretty beastly single target damage when he gets of a surprise attack should be smthn like 2d8 weapon + 5 + 6d8 cantrip + 20d6 sneak attack doubled from level 17 assassin ability plus an additional possible 4d8 if the target moves on its turn.

[Gtdead]

For the highest single target build with rogue I'd go for Lock 2/AT 18, against 20 ac, can do 65~ dpr by selfbuffing with haste and hide cunning action, 72 with a bless, not counting criticals. Which is pretty amazing considering that it's about the same as a sorlock with hex and quicken. Although sneaking can go wrong.

[Spacehamster]

For the highest single target build with rogue I'd go for Lock 2/AT 18, against 20 ac, can do 65~ dpr by selfbuffing with haste and hide cunning action, 72 with a bless, not counting criticals. Which is pretty amazing considering that it's about the same as a sorlock with hex and quicken. Although sneaking can go wrong.

Think he specifically asked for no MC builds tho. :)

[Gtdead]

Think he specifically asked for no MC builds tho. :)

Right, forgot about it, you can do the same thing as a normal AT with haste. Attack a target with haste's extra attack for sneak, ready action to prepare a reaction on the target's turn (attacking or moving, depending on what is more convenient), for a second sneak attack.

This does around 50 dpr, about 60 if you utilize bonus action for advantage on one of the attacks with mage hand and up to 70 with bless.

Sadly this can't really work as melee because of the action economy of haste, and readying spells requires concentration. It would be nice to add a booming blade there.

If someone else casts haste on you, this can potentially go up to 80 dpr.

All my numbers are against AC 20, with advantage on one of the two attacks.

I added the 2 lvl warlock to avoid this whole thing since damage and playstyle is about the same.

[NewDM]

For simplicity's sake I'll go with an EK SS build to avoid crits and maneuvers. He can just haste himself.

Sharpshooter Fighter, no subclass, not counting criticals.

Basic attack
3.5+5=8.5, 18.5 with Sharp shooter.
5 per round (4 attack action +1 bonus action): 18.5x5= 92.5 dpr

Attack roll +13, SS 13-5=8
Against 20 AC, 40% chance to hit.
92.5*0.4=

37 DPR

Pretty unimpressive. Lets start adding buffs.

Haste: (Self Buff)

Extra attack for 18.5, total of 111

111*0.4=44.4

Bless (Cleric or Paladin)

+2.5 to hit, grant total of 52.5, let's say 50 for simplicity's sake

111*0.5= 55.5

Lowest level magic weapon (Wizard)

Hit goes to 55%, damage to 19.5

116*0.55=63.8

Still unimpressive.

So by now you are right, Barbarian stacks better with simple buffs because he has advantage on attacks due to rage.
This means that the small buffs will stack better with him against high AC.

Earlier I talked about Foresight. The point of this spell is that it lasts for 8 hours, no concentration, gives both offensive advantage, saves and blur effect which is amazing for any frontliner.
Rage already gives advantage, so Barbarian will not get any benefit from Foresight. And even if he gets Foresight, he doesn't have access to the extra Rage damage.

Fighter can however, raising his chance to hit to 80%,

116*0.80=93 Final DPR Ranged.

With the same buffs, PAM does
129.5*0.7=90, 106 with AoO

Foresight completely ****s on rage and 4 classes have access to it.
Not only fighter becomes the ultimate killing machine with it, but it only gets better with Action Surge
A 20 lvl fighter can do an average of 400 dmg in 2 rounds per short rest. More as a battlemaster with precision.
And in a game with a lot of magic items, fighter will just keep outclassing barbarian because he scales better.

Also there are other guys to get advantage. Even at lower levels, an enlarge person can allow the fighter to shove up to huge creatures. The trade is always worth it against 17+ AC at lvl 11.
And there is always the chance of having a wolf barbarian (which imo is a no brainer in a party with 2 melee builds, bear totem is convenient but not the absolute defensive ability).

So as I said, fighter not the highest dpr in the game overall, but if I had to buff any class to kill the bad guy, I'd choose fighter.

Edit: Fixed a mistake.
Double edit: I made another mistake, my numbers are against 21 AC. Add about 4 dpr for 20.

Yeah, see if you start adding buffs from other classes you gotta add them to all compared classes. This usually ends in a tie (except in the case of foresight with barbarian, but in that case we'd simply use another more useful buff spell like magic weapon +3).

Edit: Enlarge doesn't stack with haste unless someone else casts it. So far you have the cleric casting bless, the wizard/self casting haste. Unless you have another wizard you aren't going to get enlarge on top of it.

[Foxhound438]

Not home atm but a high elf assassin with booming blade as cantrip should be pretty beastly single target damage when he gets of a surprise attack should be smthn like 2d8 weapon + 5 + 6d8 cantrip + 20d6 sneak attack doubled from level 17 assassin ability plus an additional possible 4d8 if the target moves on its turn.

not really sustainable, since after the combat starts you don't auto-crit anymore.

[Spacehamster]

not really sustainable, since after the combat starts you don't auto-crit anymore.

Well after that you still do the decent sustained dps of a Rogue so its not bad either. :)

[Gtdead]

Yeah, see if you start adding buffs from other classes you gotta add them to all compared classes. This usually ends in a tie (except in the case of foresight with barbarian, but in that case we'd simply use another more useful buff spell like magic weapon +3).

Edit: Enlarge doesn't stack with haste unless someone else casts it. So far you have the cleric casting bless, the wizard/self casting haste. Unless you have another wizard you aren't going to get enlarge on top of it.

There just not enough buffs to bring barbarian over fighter, and I took the absolute minimum versions of buffs for my calculations. If both of them get a 3 weapon, fighter will get more mileage out of it. Of course by the end of the day he becomes a glorified wizard's pet, but that's his job anyway.

You are right about enlarge and haste, but it wasn't part of the comparison, just an afterthought. Fighter has action surge. At lvl 11 he can kill most similar cr monsters in one turn. If he requires a shove against a huge creature, enlarge is better than haste. If the monster is smaller no need for enlarge.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am sorry if I missed a post, but is the criterion sustained or burst damage? If sustained, is it "all day" or for one fight?

I could have sworn that last year someone showed that a sorcerer had the most damage, but I can't find the post. (Grrr).

[Citan]

I am sorry if I missed a post, but is the criterion sustained or burst damage? If sustained, is it "all day" or for one fight?

I could have sworn that last year someone showed that a sorcerer had the most damage, but I can't find the post. (Grrr).
Hi!
No clue about the thread you make reference to, but maybe it was about a multiclass?
While I cannot see how a pure Sorcerer could outdamage a Fighter, I see easily how a multiclass could come not far.
Fighter 2 just for action surge, Warlock 2, Sorcerer.
Just cast Hex as first quickened spell, then cast Agonizing Blast with normal action (to follow the rule) and Scorching Ray as lvl 8 action surge.
Makes (1d10*4 + 2d6*8) + (1d6*12) damage if everything hit. So an average of (22 + 56) + 42 = 120 damage if I didn't make a mistake. Not considering potential +5 coming from Draconic or Undying Light.
Not too shabby I'd say. ;)

Obviously, if you disregard the sh**** ruling about Draconic bonus being applied once, then this combo trumps probably any other one because you'd get +10 (Draconic + Undying Light) on each Scorching Ray roll.

With that said, it's good for a solo player. But as a group, putting every buff on a single martial seems a better resource consumption to me (you use everyone actions but spend only low level spells).

[Gtdead]

I talked about sorcerer, that as long as he twins and quickens his cantips he is going to outdo most classes. By lvl 10 or so he has enough slots to twin and quicken literally for whole day.

I'm typing from the phone and it's hard to do math, but consider that a gfb can do 8d8+10=46*3=138, that most classes need per short rest resources and gwm/ss to do, then against any fight with 2+ enemies, he will just beat every other class in the game.

Even firebolt becomes a dpr force with metamagics, 81 dpr at range.

Against dragons (High ac in general) he gets outclassed by the melee classes though, at least till the dragon uses all his legendary resistance. He is also weak against fire resistance.
In short he is not very dependable like fighters and barbarians.

With that in mind I created a paladin 2/undying light lock 1/sorcerer x spec that aims to outlast everything with shields and blurs while dealing steady fire dpr and twin lures for control, turning to sacred flames and smites against Immune targets. The results are amazing. And if i want to I can grab 1 more level of paladin and warlock and have eb, hex, devil's sight, vow of enmity.

[Giant2005]

The Sorc thing may have been accounting for multiple enemies.
A quickened GFB followed by twinned BBs against two side-by-side enemies would inflict some serious damage. Although it would obviously benefit much more from gaining further damage from multiclassing considering that can be achieved with only 3 levels of Sorc and Sorc brings little more to the table (only level 6 damage increase for GFB, and potential DPR increasing buffs such as Haste).

[KorvinStarmast]

No clue about the thread you make reference to, but maybe it was about a multiclass?
Maybe it was a sorc/warlock multiclass. Not sure.

With that said, it's good for a solo player. But as a group, putting every buff on a single martial seems a better resource consumption to me (you use everyone actions but spend only low level spells).Team play tends to be most effective. Two thumbs up! :smallbiggrin:

@ Giant2005

Ah. Maybe that was it, so the question of "at which level band" will move a bit.

[NewDM]

I am sorry if I missed a post, but is the criterion sustained or burst damage? If sustained, is it "all day" or for one fight?

I could have sworn that last year someone showed that a sorcerer had the most damage, but I can't find the post. (Grrr).

Yeah, single class, single target, sustained damage over a 35 round day composed of 7 encounters with 5 rounds each.

I don't think anyone is going to try to argue that any non-caster class will do more multi-target damage than a caster like Wizard or Sorcerer.

[danhass]

When constrained to single class, the Paladin and Rogue are built for this.