Neverwinter Nights 2 Mask of the Betrayer

[BayardSPSR]

I got this a few years ago, bundled into a huge GOG sale of RPGs. Knew nothing about it, read good things comparing it to Planescape: Torment, decided to give it a look.

So open the game, make a character, start playing... And get confronted with an absurd interface the need to immediately level up 18 times. While I've played 3.5, I've never done so at high levels, let alone in a modified-for-PC form. And that interface...

I have two questions:


Is this game worth investing the effort to get in the door?
What can I do to make this game take less effort to get in the door?

[russdm]

I don't have an answer for question 2, but the game is really worth playing through. I have it myself, and plan on plaything through it when I can. It has a great storyline, and there is a let's play of it on LP Archive.

[Sajiri]

Mask of the Betrayer is an expansion though to the original NWN2, so its starting you at a high lvl because you're meant to be continuing from the level you finished the original campaign at. Admittedly even though I own MotB, I never played the expansion after finishing the main game, and it sounds like you havent played the main one. I'd imagine it's the same thing, and by playing MotB first you're missing out on the tutorials from the original one.

I'd imagine the expansion comes with the main game, but it sounds like thats where you're starting from

[Eldariel]

Honestly, Mask of the Betrayer is 10 times the game NWN2 ever was. NWN2 is just...weak on many fronts, but MotB succeeds in a rather more mystical, engaging story. It has its weaknesses (without spoiling much, I'll just say that there was executive meddling involved) and the fundamental mechanic of the game is rather punishing at times (but can be turned off and I recommend doing so if it gets annoying), but the story and the characterization is rather good in my opinion and it offers multiple distinct playthrough paths which I find refreshing. Also, it makes a good use of the planar aspects of the world.

Now, how to start, well, you'll just have to learn the system. I recommend referencing an online guide on the class you picked or on character creation in general: the game is actually rather high on the difficulty scale unless you've got a decent grasp of what you're doing (enemy numbers get really high and you have far fewer options to subvert them than on pen'n'paper). There are some defaults that work really well though so just start there.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the game actually has a decent set of system-expanding mods adding much of 3.5 content including the Tome of Battle-classes in so if you're interested in a bit more varied martial system, it might be worth taking a look there. Compared to NWN1 the modding is nothing, but that's just because of how expansive NWN1 modding scene was.

[Ailurus]

I got this a few years ago, bundled into a huge GOG sale of RPGs. Knew nothing about it, read good things comparing it to Planescape: Torment, decided to give it a look.

So open the game, make a character, start playing... And get confronted with an absurd interface the need to immediately level up 18 times. While I've played 3.5, I've never done so at high levels, let alone in a modified-for-PC form. And that interface...

I have two questions:


Is this game worth investing the effort to get in the door?
What can I do to make this game take less effort to get in the door?


1) Yes.
2) This website (http://nwn2db.com/) is a character builder for NWN2. So, you can see all the skills/feats/classes/etc. that are available and plan it out ahead of time.

[Morty]

Honestly? It's not worth it. Mask of the Betrayer is extremely well-written, but a combination of NWN2's engine and interface with D&D 3e's epic rules make combat an absolute chore. Managing an epic spellcaster's spell list is bad in itself - imagine doing it for two of them at the minimum. Finding a Let's Play of the game will save you money, time and frustration.

And I'm pretty sure the Tome of Battle mod for NWN2 doesn't actually work.

[Crow]

I hated Mask of the Betrayer. Tedious combat that felt like a chore, and a dreadful "hunger" mechanic that was an unneeded and uninteresting burden.

[Luceid]

Is this game worth investing the effort to get in the door?
What can I do to make this game take less effort to get in the door?


There's a lot of valid criticism about NWN2's engine and the implementation of the 3.5 engine in this game. But the music, setting, and mood are worth it to me. The key to enjoying it for minimal effort is to find the most effortless build imaginable so that combat becomes something that just kind of happens with minimal stuffing about with the admittedly cumbersome camera and UI.

The go-to build I used for this, playing blind without importing a character from NWN2 OC, was the eye-rollingly named 'Kaze no Kama' (it should show up on a search easily enough) monk build which hits a ridiculous number of times per round for all kinds of bizarre damage that can't be mitigated. It takes off around Level 6, so an NWN2 MOTB character can enter play already capable of taking care of themselves. Eventually, you have so many elemental gems on your weapons that everything evaporates in a cloud of numbers and you can pay more attention to the plot and your decisions within it.

Oh yeah, the build doesn't require any buffs so if you just occasionally Haste yourself somehow, that's it. The game isn't perfect by any means, but it's a lot easier to enjoy the ride when you can suplex the entire cast through a table by yourself instead of juggling all kinds of spell memorizations and finicky aiming circles.

[Douglas]

It's an excellent game with a great story, in my opinion, though hampered by an edict from WotC that it's not allowed to make as major a change to the setting as the outcome a lot of players really wanted to go for at the end.

I was rather annoyed that the party size limit was precisely 1 too low to include every companion at once. I found a mod to change that when I played it.


Honestly? It's not worth it. Mask of the Betrayer is extremely well-written, but a combination of NWN2's engine and interface with D&D 3e's epic rules make combat an absolute chore. Managing an epic spellcaster's spell list is bad in itself - imagine doing it for two of them at the minimum. Finding a Let's Play of the game will save you money, time and frustration.
You have to set up each caster's spells known/prepared once, true, but I mostly let the AI handle the companions and it worked pretty well, so I rarely had to do anything with spells from someone other than my PC after the one-time spell selection. I'm not entirely sure whether I was running with an unmodded AI, though - I remember using an AI mod (I think by someone named TonyK?) in NWN2, but it might have been only for the core non-expansion game.


I hated Mask of the Betrayer. Tedious combat that felt like a chore, and a dreadful "hunger" mechanic that was an unneeded and uninteresting burden.
It's pretty easy to entirely negate the Hunger mechanic. If you always Suppress and never feed, the amount you lose for resting gets pretty low. If you have spirits nearby when you Suppress, that increases the amount you gain from it. One of the companions counts as a spirit, and one of the options for Summon Monster (I think it's the elemental) also counts, and two companions are able to cast that. You can thus provide 3 nearby spirits solely from within the party, which is enough to make Suppress give you more than resting loses.

[veti]

Honestly, Mask of the Betrayer is 10 times the game NWN2 ever was.

I consider NWN2 the biggest disappointment of my gaming career. Worse than HoMMV, worse than Tropico 2, worse than MoO3 - as an "unspeakably dreadful sequel to a great predecessor/series", it stands alone. Heck, it's worse than Windows Vista.

So that's faint praise at best.

[Winter_Wolf]

Worse than MoO3? Surely you jest. I don't even know how that's possible. Then again I like NWN2 better than BG2, though I admit that ain't saying much in my case.

[BayardSPSR]

Thanks for the responses, everyone.


The go-to build I used for this, playing blind without importing a character from NWN2 OC, was the eye-rollingly named 'Kaze no Kama' (it should show up on a search easily enough) monk build which hits a ridiculous number of times per round for all kinds of bizarre damage that can't be mitigated.

This especially. I'll look for that.

Relevant question, to help me make the judgment: how long is it? It seems like it ought to be less than the full game, being an expansion, but that can still be a lot.

[Kish]

There's a Tome of Battle mod which may or may not work?

[Starwulf]

Just in case you are unaware, there is also a second expansion(though I'm pretty sure it can also be played as a stand-alone) to NWN2, called Storm of Zehir. It introduces a fairly interesting new mechanic in more or less building up a merchant caravan.

[Aragehaor]

There's a Tome of Battle mod which may or may not work?

Maybe? (http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/hakpak/original-hakpak/tome-battle-book-nine-swords)



As for the games length, i don't remember precisely, but i believe it took me around 27 hours to complete, Though i play games of this nature fairly slowly, so the exact time might vary for you.



Still, i'd say about 18-20 hours is a good expectation - anyone can feel free to correct me into the ground if my memory is faulty, though. :smalltongue:

[Morty]

You have to set up each caster's spells known/prepared once, true, but I mostly let the AI handle the companions and it worked pretty well, so I rarely had to do anything with spells from someone other than my PC after the one-time spell selection. I'm not entirely sure whether I was running with an unmodded AI, though - I remember using an AI mod (I think by someone named TonyK?) in NWN2, but it might have been only for the core non-expansion game.

I have a distinct recollection of my wizard companion firing her Meteor Swarm at the first enemy she saw. Daily spells are bad enough on their own, and they get worse when mixed with AI.

As far as the ToB mod goes, I've heard it's rather non-functional. But that was before January 2015, so maybe it's been made to function in the meantime. It's certainly an ambitious project, since NWN2 just doesn't have a lot of things that ToB uses - jump checks or grappling, to start with.

[danzibr]

Whoa, 3.5 support? I might pick this up.

[Psyren]

Whoa, 3.5 support? I might pick this up.

All of NWN2 uses 3.5 rules. The mods simply try to add more classes/subsystems/spells (with varying degrees of success.)

In addition to MotB, some enterprising folks also redid the entirety of Baldur's Gate in the NWN2 engine (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/06/06/mad-mod-recreates-baldurs-gate-in-neverwinter-nights-2/) (i.e. under 3.5 rules.) So if you're debating picking up the game, well, here's another reason.

[Calemyr]

NWN2 was a pretty good game a few months after it came out (being an Obsidian game, a "beta" release was unavoidable).

The main game is a pretty generic, but interesting. The characters range from being pretty cool to being pretty forgettable. There is a romance angle, but it's an "Avellone" romance, as Chris Avellone has a delightfully cynical view on the topic (nothing ever ends with a Happily Ever After). The climax is pretty good, but the actual ending ticks off a lot of people.

Mask of the Betrayer is at the same time ten times better and ten times worse than the main game. It continues the original story, but you lose the original cast (beyond some cameos). Instead of a dozen crazy characters representing a collection of classes, races, and alignments, you are left with about half that. The story itself is downright epic in a lot of the best ways, forcing you to deal with issues fundamental to the entire Forgotten Realms setting, things the gods themselves are loathe to address. This epic game is then complicated to hell with the Spirit Eater, a curse that kills you if you ignore it and screws with your alignment if you address it. You can render it useless (and shift your alignment good) with the Surpress Hunger ability, which keeps the curse satisfied and weak, or you can use it as a weapon to destroy your enemies and collect rare ingredients for exotic enchantments in the process, but the more you feed the curse the quicker it gets hungry again. It's something of a scrappy mechanic, like the Slayer form in Baldur's Gate 2 - something you're probably never going to use and would rather it just not be there. On the other hand, however, it can be quite cool if you want to try to make use of it.

Storm of Zehir is the second expansion and honestly I both love it and hate it with great passion. It doesn't follow the hero from the first two games, instead focusing on a player-created party whose boat crashed on a foreign shore, before they get caught up in an adventure that honestly has more to do with trade caravans than monster slaying. You can have up to 4 player-generated characters, and up to 5 if you include NPC allies (6 if one of your PCs has the Leadership feat). It feels much more like a D&D game than NWN ever has before, with random encounters, skill checks, and the chance for any party member to participate in conversations (and the NPC party members can contribute in wonderful ways sometimes). The production values, however, are much lower at the same time. Few cinematic cut-scenes, minimal voice acting, and generally simplistic presentation. That and the NPCs (while awesome in writing) are horribly, horribly screwed up in generation, using pitifully poor optimization, wasted feats, and badly allocated statistics. One thing this DLC adds that is absolutely great, however, is a prestige class Doomguide of Kelemvor. The prestige class is pretty cool in general, but it is a great addition to NWN2 and Mask of the Betrayer, as undead are absurdly common in both stories and it just makes oddly perfect sense, plotwise.

The problem with the game in general, though, is that it didn't age all that well. A lot of NWN2 was pretty generic for the time, and now comes off as comically hokey. The graphics aren't horrible, but they are certainly not grand. MoB is epic in story, but you have to endure your way through the gameplay to enjoy it, and that can be a challenge. SoZ is a brilliant reinvention of the NWN2 engine that comes off as one of those clever low-budget games that try to use creativity in the place of money.

[Winter_Wolf]

People forget that with the complete bundle from GOG you also get the Mysteries of Westgate, which I have admittedly never played beyond arriving on the docks because it was too much for my laptop. The thing that gets my goat in NWN2 OC is that it's really one module with three acts so that unlike NWN1 you can't just skip to the late game fun stuff. Sadly by the time I get to the part I'm most interested in, fatigue sets in and I've never actually beaten the whole game. Consequently, I keep meaning to start MotB but feel like I need to wrap up the first module before that. Vicious cycle.

[Starwulf]

NWN2 was a pretty good game a few months after it came out (being an Obsidian game, a "beta" release was unavoidable).

Heh, understatement. I had pre-ordered NWN2, and let me tell you, those of us who received the pre-orders(that we got directly from them, not from a store) were pretty much screwed, I had nothing but a black screen of nothing until 1.02 I believe. The game continued to remain unplayable until about 1.06, and then was pretty decent until they broke the whole damn thing at around 1.12 or 1.13(I can't quite recall which one now). Once they fixed that though, the game was great :)



The problem with the game in general, though, is that it didn't age all that well. A lot of NWN2 was pretty generic for the time, and now comes off as comically hokey. The graphics aren't horrible, but they are certainly not grand. MoB is epic in story, but you have to endure your way through the gameplay to enjoy it, and that can be a challenge. SoZ is a brilliant reinvention of the NWN2 engine that comes off as one of those clever low-budget games that try to use creativity in the place of money.

Hmmm, this is purely a matter of perspective/opinion, as I just played the game within the last year, I thought the graphics were perfectly fine, and once I got the cameras and controls to a point I was comfortable with, it played just like NWN, which is to say, quite enjoyable. Sadly I got distracted by another game and didn't finish, but I'll eventually get back to it :)

[Kish]

All I'm seeing in the description of the ToB mod is that it may not play well with other class packs. I don't really give a flying row of asterisks about other class packs, so if that's all it is, it might be enough to motivate me to try NWN2 again.

(The AI made it unplayable for me. And I mean really unplayable; I'd get partway through and realize every step of the way was being excruciating.)

[Eldariel]

I played it with the AI disabled after I'd had enough of my characters running after a single escaping enemy into a full room and dying in short order. Just paused between rounds and gave orders á la Baldur's Gate. Frankly, the engine and the AI are both terrible and that can't really be helped (there's a reason it was 1/10th the game NWN was and that's the inflexibility of the UI), but I was able to bear with them as I played through it. They'll never magically become awesome but I feel they're tolerable if the game underneath is good enough.

[Morty]

I finished NWN2's basic campaign some years ago. I don't know that I'd be able to do it now. I still remember the sheer tedium of Old Owl's Well. So many, many identical orcs.

[Kish]

Tried that. My characters still randomly decided to belay my orders, they just replaced them with "stand there and drool on my shoes" instead of doing something active other than what I'd told them to do.

[Driderman]

Thanks for the responses, everyone.



This especially. I'll look for that.

Relevant question, to help me make the judgment: how long is it? It seems like it ought to be less than the full game, being an expansion, but that can still be a lot.

Unless you edit in some magical weapons the starting area for the Kaze no Kama is going to be HORRIBLE though, since you only have your weak, weak fists to inflict damage on some pretty nasty opponents.
I *think* the playtime for the expansion is around 20 hours? Not sure I actually ever finished it, as awesome as it is.

[KillingAScarab]

Whoa, 3.5 support? I might pick this up.Well, Neverwinter Nights 2 has 3.5 with some additions. One of the additions to 3.0 rules in the original Neverwinter Nights was the parry skill, and it stuck around (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Parry) for the sequel. How good was the parry skill? I remember BioWare forum signatures from before NWN2's release to the effect of, "Friends don't let friends put points in parry." Discipline (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Discipline) was thankfully removed, but I still wouldn't trust automatic skill point assignments.

The Temple of Elemental Evil used a closer interpretation of the 3.5 rules, though I think it was still buggy with the patches (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/ToEE/index_misc.php). Circle of Eight (http://www.co8.org/forum/) has been modding that one for a long time, though.

[BayardSPSR]

Unless you edit in some magical weapons the starting area for the Kaze no Kama is going to be HORRIBLE though, since you only have your weak, weak fists to inflict damage on some pretty nasty opponents.

Hm. Seeing as it's based on 3.5, is just going with a wizard and using a nova-rest-nova system to get through fights going to work?

[veti]

Hm. Seeing as it's based on 3.5, is just going with a wizard and using a nova-rest-nova system to get through fights going to work?

Talking only about the original campaign here, not 'Mask' - I'm pretty sure not only that does work, but also it's the default assumption of the designers.

So many areas consisted of "encounter huge horde of mobs, pause, encounter huge horde of mobs". In that "pause", you could take 20 seconds to rest, heal and relearn spells. If you didn't, then by the third or fourth huge melee in a row, you'd be flagging. Towards the end of the campaign, when they wanted to step up the challenge, they did it by "introducing an area where you couldn't rest".

I forget exactly where it was, but there was this one house where I swear I had to fight more enemies than would have physically fit inside it. It was like having a melee in a clown car.

[Inarius]

All I'm seeing in the description of the ToB mod is that it may not play well with other class packs. I don't really give a flying row of asterisks about other class packs, so if that's all it is, it might be enough to motivate me to try NWN2 again.

(The AI made it unplayable for me. And I mean really unplayable; I'd get partway through and realize every step of the way was being excruciating.)

I remember using the ToB a several years back and it worked well enough. The only problem I had was it didnt work with Kaedrins PrC pack. No clue if thats been updated or not but I just disabled Kaedrins and used ToB. I do remember some things not quite working right but there were disclaimers in the descriptions saying that those parts were still being worked on.

[Kislath]

I loved Neverwinter Nights 2.
In fact, I've been trying to re-install it, but I can't find my authentication code anywhere. My old computer crashed and I've upgraded it, but even though I seem to have all the old paperwork, I can't find the code. It's annoying.

The toolset uses much more system resources than the game itself, so a lot of people had trouble modding it. I wasn't one of those people, so i modded the heck out of it. Hee!

One of my favorite things about the game is the way things go when you have different combinations of followers with you at any given time. LOL!! Aw, man.. You've GOT to try the bugbear vault scene with Khelgar, Grobnar, and Neeshka.

The story was cool, the villains were awesome, and you get to meet Sand, one of the all-time greatest NPCs in videogame history.

Man, I want to reinstall this!! GRRRR!!!

Anyway, all that said, I hated Mask of the Betrayer. The soul hunger mechanic was just too much. Take my advice, NEVER eat a soul, not even once to see what happens. You'll regret it.

[Starwulf]

I loved Neverwinter Nights 2.
In fact, I've been trying to re-install it, but I can't find my authentication code anywhere. My old computer crashed and I've upgraded it, but even though I seem to have all the old paperwork, I can't find the code. It's annoying.

The toolset uses much more system resources than the game itself, so a lot of people had trouble modding it. I wasn't one of those people, so i modded the heck out of it. Hee!

One of my favorite things about the game is the way things go when you have different combinations of followers with you at any given time. LOL!! Aw, man.. You've GOT to try the bugbear vault scene with Khelgar, Grobnar, and Neeshka.

The story was cool, the villains were awesome, and you get to meet Sand, one of the all-time greatest NPCs in videogame history.

Man, I want to reinstall this!! GRRRR!!!

Anyway, all that said, I hated Mask of the Betrayer. The soul hunger mechanic was just too much. Take my advice, NEVER eat a soul, not even once to see what happens. You'll regret it.

Hmm, I've seen people take issue with doing morally reprehensible things in games before, but I've never really understood why. It's a game, it doesn't mirror or reflect who you are in real life at all, it's just a way to complete a game and nothing more. Assuming this is what your issue with it is, could you maybe explain to me why it bothers you and why you refuse to take part in it even though it's just a game?

[Douglas]

Hmm, I've seen people take issue with doing morally reprehensible things in games before, but I've never really understood why. It's a game, it doesn't mirror or reflect who you are in real life at all, it's just a way to complete a game and nothing more. Assuming this is what your issue with it is, could you maybe explain to me why it bothers you and why you refuse to take part in it even though it's just a game?
I think his issue is with the mechanics of it, not morality. The mechanical issue with eating souls in MotB is that each time you eat a soul it increases the curse's appetite. Thus, eating one soul causes a lasting increase in how hard it is to avoid spiritual starvation.

On the other hand, using Suppress (once per rest, cannot be used if you've eaten a soul since your last rest) decreases the curse's appetite (within limits), so I'd think it should be a temporary problem.

I haven't tried it, but internet guides tell me there are some interesting special magic items you can craft if you eat specific souls. For the ultimate example, if you devour the souls of every single one of the possible NPC companions (which of course requires you to play the rest of the game solo), you can combine them to make the Amulet of Betrayal Personified.

[Starwulf]

I think his issue is with the mechanics of it, not morality. The mechanical issue with eating souls in MotB is that each time you eat a soul it increases the curse's appetite. Thus, eating one soul causes a lasting increase in how hard it is to avoid spiritual starvation.

On the other hand, using Suppress (once per rest, cannot be used if you've eaten a soul since your last rest) decreases the curse's appetite (within limits), so I'd think it should be a temporary problem.

I haven't tried it, but internet guides tell me there are some interesting special magic items you can craft if you eat specific souls. For the ultimate example, if you devour the souls of every single one of the possible NPC companions (which of course requires you to play the rest of the game solo), you can combine them to make the Amulet of Betrayal Personified.

Ahhh, alright then, I understand. Sorry for the confusion ^^

[Edge]

Mask of the Betrayer has a fantastic story, and once of my favourite scenes and lines in video games:

"Only love could be so cruel, I think."

I also never had any major issues with the spirit-eater mechanic, but I only ever played after the patch that altered several things about it:

Reduced the intervals at which you lost spirit energy
Increased the effects of Suppression
I think it increased the amount of spirit energy gained from Devouring?
And it definitely removed the Good/Evil alignment shifts for Suppression and Devouring, respectively.


Even if you don't end up buying and playing it, I would definitely suggest reading the aforementioned Let's Play (http://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2-Mask-of-the-Betrayer/) over on the Let's Play archive.

[Winter_Wolf]

Bishop was actually one of my favorite npcs in the OC. Try putting him in with the paladin NPC. That guy's so bland I can't even remember his name other than starts with a "C". Once for giggles I did the max roster cheat to see the interactions between npcs with the least replaying. Cacophonous.

I had some point about MotB I was going to make, but spoiler tags on a mobile phone are problematic.

[Calemyr]

Yeah. Please don't get me wrong. If you're big into story and not the sort to get turned off by a game that's a little old, I heartily recommend NWN2 and it's expansions. Mask of the Betrayer is one of the best stories I've seen, one that really pushes questions of morality to a breaking point and offers some very interesting companions, including a bear god and an unholy spectre comprised of the souls of many executed evil people (these two can not be recruited in the same play-through). The games of Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, and Shadowrun Returns tell better stories, I think, but to come in second behind them is hardly faint praise.

[Psyren]

With all the hype for MotB I guess I'll have to fire up GoG and install it :smallsmile:

[Sajiri]

Bishop was actually one of my favorite npcs in the OC. Try putting him in with the paladin NPC. That guy's so bland I can't even remember his name other than starts with a "C". Once for giggles I did the max roster cheat to see the interactions between npcs with the least replaying. Cacophonous.

I had some point about MotB I was going to make, but spoiler tags on a mobile phone are problematic.

That's exactly what I did! Too bad the pc I had back then, having all the npcs with you at once just lagged like crazy, but it was worth it to see those scenes.

Bishop was a great character, and the paladin was Casavir. Its a shame so many of the characters had content cut, I believe Casavir was meant to have more to his background that never made it in, whereas Bishop was meant to have a full romance path that didnt get finished either. At least there's a skyrim mod that adds them, even if they're not quite the same as NWN2

[Inarius]

I'm starting to get the urge to replay through NWN2 again though I have a bunch of games I'm currently half or 3/4ths of the way through that I really should finish first. Not sure what I'd play. Maybe go with Warlock if I can find a fix to the SR bug or play as a Cleric/Doomguide. Or maybe I'll attempt to play as a Wizard/ Red Wizard again while grumbling to myself how much more fluid metamagic is as a Sorcerer and winding up restarting as a Sorcerer/Arcane Scholar. At least NWN2 has good prestige classes for casters without having to use mods which was something that annoyed me in NWN 1.

[Winter_Wolf]

I'm starting to get the urge to replay through NWN2 again though I have a bunch of games I'm currently half or 3/4ths of the way through that I really should finish first. Not sure what I'd play. Maybe go with Warlock if I can find a fix to the SR bug or play as a Cleric/Doomguide. Or maybe I'll attempt to play as a Wizard/ Red Wizard again while grumbling to myself how much more fluid metamagic is as a Sorcerer and winding up restarting as a Sorcerer/Arcane Scholar. At least NWN2 has good prestige classes for casters without having to use mods which was something that annoyed me in NWN 1.

Seems contagious. Been thinking about going back to play NWN2 myself. But my favorite part is the beginning of act three and you can't just skip to it, so a little torn. Meanwhile desperately trying to get into BG2, gods why is it just so hard for me to like that game?!

[KillingAScarab]

Seems contagious. Been thinking about going back to play NWN2 myself.Same here. First time I tried it must have been without patches, because I swear the warlock's eldritch blast didn't work.


Meanwhile desperately trying to get into BG2, gods why is it just so hard for me to like that game?!Is it because of Irenicus' dungeon? Because there is a mod to let you skip it (http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=98&Itemid=79/). If it's the rules... well, I can't help you there.

[Inarius]

Same here. First time I tried it must have been without patches, because I swear the warlock's eldritch blast didn't work.


There's a bug related to Warlocks that makes Eldritch Blast only take 1/2 of the Warlocks level into account for spell resistance purposes. It tends to make Eldritch Blast fizzle a lot unless you use the Vitriolic essence since that bypasses spell resist. It never got patched though there are a few mods that have fixes for it, but I'm not sure if they work on the current version of the game or only older versions.

[KillingAScarab]

There's a bug related to Warlocks that makes Eldritch Blast only take 1/2 of the Warlocks level into account for spell resistance purposes. It tends to make Eldritch Blast fizzle a lot unless you use the Vitriolic essence since that bypasses spell resist. It never got patched though there are a few mods that have fixes for it, but I'm not sure if they work on the current version of the game or only older versions.Huh, could have sworn I had it fail against low-level bandits I wouldn't have expected spell resistance on, but it has been too long. Anyway, this mod (http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/script/spell-fixes-and-improvements) seems to provide some options for how to fix/improve the spells and invocations, works with version 1.23 and has some extras thrown in.

[Kish]

All I'm seeing in the description of the ToB mod is that it may not play well with other class packs. I don't really give a flying row of asterisks about other class packs, so if that's all it is, it might be enough to motivate me to try NWN2 again.

(The AI made it unplayable for me. And I mean really unplayable; I'd get partway through and realize every step of the way was being excruciating.)
Confirmed: The mod does not work. It keeps saying I can't use maneuvers because my target "has less than 1 hit point," no matter how clearly untrue this is.

Oh well. Disappointing, but not nearly as disappointing as a ToB mod for a game I was otherwise excited about not working would have been.

[Morty]

Bolting an entire new subsystem onto the game was a noble effort, but I'd have been really surprised if it had worked.

[KillingAScarab]

Confirmed: The mod does not work. It keeps saying I can't use maneuvers because my target "has less than 1 hit point," no matter how clearly untrue this is.Perhaps the mod spoils the twist ending: that everyone was actually a g-g-g-ghost the whole time?!
:smalleek:

No, wait, ghosts have hit points too, that can't be it. :smalltongue:

[GrayDeath]

Damn, I lent my complete Set of NWN 2 to a friend...who moved and has it somewhere in Storage now.

As this thread made me want to play MotB again (and parts of NWN 2, not OOW obviously).

[Psyren]

Damn, I lent my complete Set of NWN 2 to a friend...who moved and has it somewhere in Storage now.

As this thread made me want to play MotB again (and parts of NWN 2, not OOW obviously).

You can get the whole thing on GoG (https://www.gog.com/game/neverwinter_nights_2_complete) including all expansions for just $20. For $5 extra it looks like you can also get NWN1 Diamond.

If you can hold out until summer (June or so) I would; usually GoG/Steam/Origin all start having crazy sales simultaneously.

[Kislath]

I still have NWN 1 installed and I play it a few times a year. The story is torturous, but it's still worth playing.

I really miss NWN 2, though. I've never had much luck with GOG, but maybe I'll try them again.

[Flickerdart]

I read the LP, and it's clear that I missed so much content with Mask of the Betrayer. Especially the super double-evil playthrough!

[GrayDeath]

You can get the whole thing on GoG (https://www.gog.com/game/neverwinter_nights_2_complete) including all expansions for just $20. For $5 extra it looks like you can also get NWN1 Diamond.

If you can hold out until summer (June or so) I would; usually GoG/Steam/Origin all start having crazy sales simultaneously.


True. I`ll do that, thanks.
Should ahve thought of GOG myself, as an avid Buyer ;)

[Firechanter]

I just dug out NWN2 the other day after a longer time. Noticed that I also yet have to play through MotB. Previously I completed the OC and started MotB, but I'm currently still in that village besieged by that Bear Spirit. I hear a lot of good things about the campaign, but so far, yeah, combat seems a chore. It's also a bit weird that all those Gnoll roughnecks are minimum Level 18, but whatevs.

NWN2 is true to 3.5 in that it reflects the Tier system to a fault. Try playing the OC as Rogue or Monk and you'll get a lesson in Poor Choices. Rolling a Cleric switches the difficulty to Easy Mode. The buff suites are a tedium, but the strategy is extremely effective.
Note that the main difference between OC and MotB is that resting is very restricted in the latter. In the OC you can use any little 6-second break in the action to recover all your HP and spells. In MotB you have to actually manage your resources. Also, some enemies actually take the time to dispel you - *ching* there goes a three-minute buff suite.

That ToB Mod? Yeah, tried it a couple years ago. It got buggy and I wasn't able to recover or initiate maneuvers after a while (around level 8, mind you... hours of gameplay down the drain, argh). The mod seems to have not been supported for years even back then, so I gave up. :-(

So far my favourite character has been a "Divine Soul": a Cleric1/Pal2/Favoured Soul X Build that uses spells for buffing and healing, and TU attempts to fuel Divine Might and Divine Shield. Saves through the roof; combined with energy resistances and the Evasion power from Water Domain you can just laugh at traps and area effects. It lags 2 spell levels behind for most of the game compared to a full caster, but that never proved to be any kind of problem.

Anyway, back to MotB: I'd suggest rolling a primary caster. I doubt you'll have a lot of fun with a mundane character. The campaign is pretty straightforward about the food chain -- you don't even get an NPC Rogue anymore; that function is fulfilled by the _familiar_ of your first companion. So an entire mundane class is replaced by a single class feature of a caster, which pretty much sums up everything you need to know about the balance of classes in this game.

[Flickerdart]

Anyway, back to MotB: I'd suggest rolling a primary caster. I doubt you'll have a lot of fun with a mundane character. The campaign is pretty straightforward about the food chain -- you don't even get an NPC Rogue anymore; that function is fulfilled by the _familiar_ of your first companion. So an entire mundane class is replaced by a single class feature of a caster, which pretty much sums up everything you need to know about the balance of classes in this game.

I played it with a Red Dragon Disciple Barbarian, and he was pretty effective.

Also, Kaji has too few Rogue levels to do anything useful. You want your primary character to Open Locks, or recruit One of Many.

[GrayDeath]

I played through the OC with a Warlock (with Dips in Fighter) and while that wasnt particularly EASY the Companions made it viable.

But yeah, that ... is a really tough choice for MotB. I tried but died (too foten),s till might one day try to go through the game with him, me likes ;)
In my 3 Playthroughs of MotB in it I played a Power CC (Fighter/Barb with 1 level Bard and RDD), a FaceBuffCaster (Fav Soul with Extra PC, dont remember exactly) and my usual D&D PC go: a Blasting and debuffing Sorcerer+Extras.
All workeable.

[Morty]

As weak as non-casting characters are on those levels, at least playing one means you've got one less gargantuan spell list to manage.

[Inarius]

There are more than a few non caster builds that can be insanely OP. I remember doing a Fighter/Sorc/RDD/WM that dual wielded Falchions and was a crit machine. Also had a monk, again combined with RDD that did great. Really any melee with RDD would wind up being fairly powerful, though some builds have it rough early on while others had a smoother power curve. The main advantage casters have is they don't need to multiclass to get powerful, though they still gain some fairly significant power from adding an extra class or two.

[Aotrs Commander]

I never finshed Mask of the Betrayer. I quite liked NWN2 (played as a Warlock) and I reckon it had probably the best boss battle of any of the IE/Bioware/et al RPGs, followed by the worst ending pre-ME3.

But Mask? I just couldn't get on with it. Despite suppressing every time I could, the hungar mechanic made me feel like I was having to rush through large portions of the game (and was punished for resting, despite, 2/4 of the early NPCs all being primary casters). Maybe I was just doing it wrong. At one point, I was at the stage of "taking damage every so often" before there was some sort of event that pushed it back. I got as far as running around in the basement of some hags or something and just never went back to it. I am always a bit mystified as to why people rank it with Torment when I found it pretty forgettable (aside from the frustration of ighting the hungar mechanic).

Never finished Shadow of Zehir, either, come to that.

Perhaps ought to dig them out again at some poiint and maybe try to finish the latter and maybe re-start the former and see if I can do a better job.

[GrayDeath]

Yes, you should.

Agreed, the Hunger Mechanic was a bit ... rushed (^^), but aside from that and the usual Compelxity of High Level D&D it simply rocks.

[Firechanter]

BTW, you can switch off the entire Hunger mechanic if you don't like it. I think it was a Debug switch.

Ah, here we are (source: Gamebanshee)

If you really hate dealing with spirit energy, you can use console commands to turn it off. Just enter the following lines into the console:

debugmode 1
rs ka_se_terminate
debugmode 0

If you later decide that you'd like it back on, you can type

debugmode 1
rs ka_se_init
debugmode 0

The latter command will also reset your spirit meter to its original setting (with low craving and 100 energy), and so you can use it as an alternative to the Satiate feat.

If the Hunger mechanic is detrimental to your enjoyment of the game, I say go for it.

[Crow]

Somebody said the hunger mechanic was toned down in patches. I played on release, and even doing all the "right" things to manage it, it was a fun-sucking hassle.

So maybe it is better now.