Does malconvoker + Verstaile spellcaster allow early access to Planar Binding spells?

[magicalmagicman]

Beginning at 2nd level, you can add the following spells to your class spell list and your list of known spells (or your spellbook) at the indicated levels. If you already have one or more of these spells on your class list at a different level, treat it as being of the lower level.

1. Does this mean malconvoker adds planar binding line of spells to a sorcerer's spells known? As in, I can have, at level 20, three level 8 spells known in addition to greater planar binding to get a total of 4 level 8 spells known? If yes...
2. Versatile Spellcaster lets you use two spell slots to cast a spell you know one level higher. Does this give early access to planar binding spells for sorcerers? (Technically it's normal access. Sorcerers are already 1 level behind, malconvoker pushes it another level behind, and versatile spellcaster pulls it back 2 levels, for a grand total of 0 levels and the sorcerer can cast lesser planar binding at level 9, like a wizard.
3. If you swap out summon monster III, do you lose all the class features for malconvoker because you no longer meet the requirements?

[AnachroNinja]

I haven't double checked my book copy but unfortunately I think the key word is that you "can" know the Spell, not that you do. You gain it on your list, not as an actual spell known.

[magicalmagicman]

I haven't double checked my book copy but unfortunately I think the key word is that you "can" know the Spell, not that you do. You gain it on your list, not as an actual spell known.

The quote specifically says you add it to your spells known though.

[Necroticplague]

1. Does this mean malconvoker adds planar binding line of spells to a sorcerer's spells known? As in, I can have, at level 20, three level 8 spells known in addition to greater planar binding to get a total of 4 level 8 spells known? If yes...
2. Versatile Spellcaster lets you use two spell slots to cast a spell you know one level higher. Does this give early access to planar binding spells for sorcerers? (Technically it's normal access. Sorcerers are already 1 level behind, malconvoker pushes it another level behind, and versatile spellcaster pulls it back 2 levels, for a grand total of 0 levels and the sorcerer can cast lesser planar binding at level 9, like a wizard.
3. If you swap out summon monster III, do you lose all the class features for malconvoker because you no longer meet the requirements?

1.Yes. It's plainly right there, you add it as a spell known.
2.yes.
3. Yes. CArc and DWar both state such.

[MisterKaws]

PHB P23:


If the entry is “—” for a given level of spells, the character may not cast any spells of that level.

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't say anything about bypassing this rule, and any half-sane DM would Rule 0 that the RAI is that it doesn't bypass it.

[magicalmagicman]

PHB P23:



Versatile Spellcaster doesn't say anything about bypassing this rule, and any half-sane DM would Rule 0 that the RAI is that it doesn't bypass it.

1. Specific trumps general. That rule is general, versatile spellcaster is specific.
2. Why are you trying to bring down malconvoker sorcerers? Everyone and their mothers know it's a horribad idea due to being 2 levels behind summon monster v.s. wizards.
3. There are a lot of versatile spellcaster shenanigans, but all of them fail because there is an exceptionally few ways to get spells known beyond leveling up, and by RAW metamagic doesn't work with versatile spellcaster. RAI it does, so I think your dislike of this is misplaced :)

[Silva Stormrage]

Essentially it varies based on DM.

The rules aren't quite clear wether or not versatile spellcaster lets you cast spells of one level higher than you normally could cast or not. As a DM I rule that it can because frankly otherwise the feat is utter trash :smalltongue: but I can see why some DM's would not let it work.

If the DM lets it cast 1 spell higher than normal then yes you would be able to cast planar binding a level earlier due to malconvoker if it adds it to your spell's known.

[magicalmagicman]

Essentially it varies based on DM.

The rules aren't quite clear wether or not versatile spellcaster lets you cast spells of one level higher than you normally could cast or not. As a DM I rule that it can because frankly otherwise the feat is utter trash :smalltongue: but I can see why some DM's would not let it work.

If the DM lets it cast 1 spell higher than normal then yes you would be able to cast planar binding a level earlier due to malconvoker if it adds it to your spell's known.

In your opinion, does it work with RAW?

[DarkSoul]

If you know a spell of the level Versatile Spellcaster gives you access to, in this case lesser planar binding but not having any 5th-level slots to cast it with, then yes versatile spellcaster would let you spend two 4th-level slots to cast it. This is a corner case where you know a spell of a level higher than what you can cast, and have probably the only possible way to actually cast it at your level available to you.

It's not particularly broken because the wizard has been casting it for two levels already.

So what's your hangup on early entry tricks and spellcasting shenanigans like this? It's all you've posted about for the last week.

[magicalmagicman]

If you know a spell of the level Versatile Spellcaster gives you access to, in this case lesser planar binding but not having any 5th-level slots to cast it with, then yes versatile spellcaster would let you spend two 4th-level slots to cast it. This is a corner case where you know a spell of a level higher than what you can cast, and have probably the only possible way to actually cast it at your level available to you.

It's not particularly broken because the wizard has been casting it for two levels already.

So what's your hangup on early entry tricks and spellcasting shenanigans like this? It's all you've posted about for the last week.

These things bother me right now:
1. A character's dependence on equipment (arcane focus, spellbooks)
2. Sorcerer's delayed spellcasting progression. PrCs without fullcasting murder sorcerers IMO, so ways to lessen the damage intrigues me.
3. Level 1-5 combat capability, hence attempt to gain early entry fiery bursts
4. Planar Binding.

As a result I've posted threads about
1.wizards getting away with no spellbooks (I think I was successful)
2. Versatile spellcaster stuff (like this thread)
3. Melee or Early Entry Fiery Burst (all failures)

[Troacctid]

2. Sorcerer's delayed spellcasting progression. PrCs without fullcasting murder sorcerers IMO, so ways to lessen the damage intrigues me.

You could be a kobold. The Draconic Reservoir feat lets you remove the delay.

[AnachroNinja]

I can see the angle now, and yeah you may be right. I'd always read it as you being capable of adding them to your spells known, but I can see your version as valid. I'd say it would work with versatile spellcaster personally.