Mid level encounters (D&D 3.5)

[NapazTrix]

Specific Levels:
Lv13s: 1 - Dragon Shaman.
Lv12s: 3 - Duskblade, Ranger(Cleric Cohort), Bear Warrior
Lv10s: 2 - Rogue, Cleric

Party Level: 12.6


I've not had much experience DMing higher level parties, normally campaigns end around level 10 and we start a new one. The party is hitting above level 12 right now and I am finding it hard to continually create challenging encounters for them, sometimes they can leave a battle with little to no resource loss. On top of that the exp given out seems lacklustre against previous levels progression.

What kind of Encounter levels should the party be facing? I would like an example of 1 encounter a day to 3 encounters in a day.
I can make boss battles fine, engaging and difficult but those "mundane" battles seem to be faltering.

I know I can give them exp in other ways, but a good majority of the party are murder hobos.

[theboss]

Thats kinda ironic, my DM prepare encounters which most of us almost die and we're level 15.
Are you preparing your own mobs? or using the monster manual to help you?
I would recommend using the monster manual for their CR since you're having trouble preapring you're own mobs to keep them challenged.
I think Demons, giants and dragons can be challenging enough, sure you can make some encounters with your own mobs to keep the role-playing...

[NapazTrix]

Thats kinda ironic, my DM prepare encounters which most of us almost die and we're level 15.
Are you preparing your own mobs? or using the monster manual to help you?
I would recommend using the monster manual for their CR since you're having trouble preapring you're own mobs to keep them challenged.
I think Demons, giants and dragons can be challenging enough, sure you can make some encounters with your own mobs to keep the role-playing...

The bosses are what almost kill the party, don't worry there isn't a lack of challenge for them.

I do a bit of both, from preparing my own mobs to using the repertoire from the books I own.

[theboss]

The bosses are what almost kill the party, don't worry there isn't a lack of challenge for them.

You said excatly the opposite... So i geuss i didnt figure it right?
---->


I've not had much experience DMing higher level parties, normally campaigns end around level 10 and we start a new one. The party is hitting above level 12 right now and I am finding it hard to continually create challenging encounters for them, sometimes they can leave a battle with little to no resource loss..



I do a bit of both, from preparing my own mobs to using the repertoire from the books I own.

My advice is you should provide them powerful monsters (like i mentioned in my last comment), And keep putting you're own mobs but realy them on the plot of your campaign (that's how my DM does it and i like this system, it keeps the challenge and the role-playing ), try to put some NPC's that also fight them. So the gain of this method is to keep them intersted and keep the challenge.
FYI, i dont say they're not intersted. But when you always put monsters from the manual its not intersting campaign.
I hope that's helpul.

[NapazTrix]

I can make boss battles fine, engaging and difficult but those "mundane" battles seem to be faltering.

^^ I had a sentence saying Bosses are fine.

I am looking more for suggestions of CR vs PL/ECL

[Dousedinoil]

Why such a big discrepancy between levels? It must be rough on the lower level characters while the higher level ones are breezing through the campaign.

[NapazTrix]

Why such a big discrepancy between levels? It must be rough on the lower level characters while the higher level ones are breezing through the campaign.

New joiners/ Re-rolled characters and some stupid deaths.
One time a rouge "was being stealthy" without rolling and angered a flesh Golem. A lot of the party like to split up, meaning they fight battles alone for a couple rounds.

[noce]

Your party is mostly melee, and a quite big party nontheless.

Try flying creatures. They won't kill the party if you don't want to, but your party will have problems dealing damage to them, unless they have means to fly.

Try area of effect spells and similar (maybe from the flying creatures themselves). They will affect the entire party in a single round, dishing at least a bit of damage (or imposing conditions) before the party can react.

Try monsters with "save or unable-to-fight" abilities, like the hezrou stench. This will potentially leave some players out of combat, breaking party usual combat schemes.

Try giving monsters tactical advantage. For example, a dozen kobold snipers hidden in a jungle with poisoned ammunitions, climbed up on several trees. You can couple such a situation with a grease trap, as the spell, so even if players spot kobold positions, they couldn't just go kill them.

[Kelvarius]

Why is the cohort a higher level than the cleric? Was the cleric 4 of those stupid deaths, because the cohort can't be more than two levels lower than the character with the Leadership feat. They stop gaining experience if they ever get to one level difference. Or am I missing something?

But aside from that, you're probably looking at a CR rating of somewhere in the area of 14. CR ratings are based on a party of 4 of a similar level, but you have 2 extras, and the level discrepancy is large enough to be a difference of 2 spell levels for the cleric and 2d6 sneak attack and special ability for the rogue (In comparison to the Dragon Shaman).

I don't have any specific examples of what they should be fighting, as a lot of that is determined by the campaign.

Another thing you could do, as pointed out by noce, is alter the tactics of the fights. A fight that would be easy in a straight fight can be made much more difficult with the right tactics, circumstances and objectives.

[mabriss lethe]

It might mean that the Ranger has a Cleric as his cohort (which would be in line, since the ranger is 2 levels higher than the cleric.)

[NapazTrix]

Why is the cohort a higher level than the cleric? Was the cleric 4 of those stupid deaths, because the cohort can't be more than two levels lower than the character with the Leadership feat. They stop gaining experience if they ever get to one level difference. Or am I missing something?

The Ranger of lv12 has a Cleric Cohort, that Cohort is lv 10 but isn't really counted in anything, so essentially the party has 2 lv10 clerics, but the cohort one is vastly weaker due to gold etc.



But aside from that, you're probably looking at a CR rating of somewhere in the area of 14. CR ratings are based on a party of 4 of a similar level, but you have 2 extras, and the level discrepancy is large enough to be a difference of 2 spell levels for the cleric and 2d6 sneak attack and special ability for the rogue (In comparison to the Dragon Shaman).

Another thing you could do, as pointed out by noce, is alter the tactics of the fights. A fight that would be easy in a straight fight can be made much more difficult with the right tactics, circumstances and objectives.

Was scared to just start throwing in CR 14 into the fights, due to the power jump some enemies get at that. Will try something along those lines and see what happens.

[noce]

Was scared to just start throwing in CR 14 into the fights, due to the power jump some enemies get at that. Will try something along those lines and see what happens.

We are a party of 5 level 10 characters.
My DM threw us a Kelubar from Fiend Folio (CR 13).
Kelubar have stench, and I alone saved (fighter). Still, I managed to kill him.

This is to say, fights following CR rules are quite easy. CR 14-15 should be ok for them.

[Waazraath]

I often find fights get more interesting the DM mixes up the opponents a bit, especially round these levels. I mean: instead of one CR 14, try sending 5 CR 8's as fodder, 2 CR 11's, and 1 CR 13; all with different abilities (mix melee, ranged an spellcasting). It can get more tactical that way, especially if you have some environmental effects as well (though you can't do that every battle without it getting a bit of a gimmick).

Problems are 1) these kind of encounters take much more time (high level takes more time anyway, because you need to have an idea of all your players options with spells, powers, etc.) and 2) in general, CR's are a good guideline, but a lot of them are off. And if the DM doesn't realize this beforehand, an encounter can be much too easy, ore much to difficult. CR's in MM2 are way too high (in general), in MM3 can be much too low....

The group I play with is lvl 13-14 atm, our DM is a great story teller and improviser, but not super into the rules; he takes random critters out of MM4 and MM5 (some players know the others too well), and he assumes they have the correct CR. That gives some really tricky fights (almost TPK's), and some really easy ones.

[Kelvarius]

It might mean that the Ranger has a Cleric as his cohort (which would be in line, since the ranger is 2 levels higher than the cleric.)


The Ranger of lv12 has a Cleric Cohort, that Cohort is lv 10 but isn't really counted in anything, so essentially the party has 2 lv10 clerics, but the cohort one is vastly weaker due to gold etc.

Ah, I misunderstood. My mistake.