Groundhog Day

[EvilAnagram]

I was thinking of running my party through a Groundhog Day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSVeDx9fk60) plot while they investigate corrupt mages. My current thinking is that whoever touches ends up repeating the current day in which they're living, while the other two players are keyed into the fact that they need to replay plot points.

Pros:

Potential fun times
My group has fun roleplaying comic moments
They're creative enough to solve the problem eventually



Cons:

It could easily become monotonous
If they have trouble solving the problem, it [i]will be monotonous
Knowing when to reset at the most comically appropriate time


Any thoughts on how this would play out as an adventure? Any cool ideas to make it better?

[Giant2005]

The Groundhog Day thing has been repeated in various mediums almost as much as Bill Murray had to repeat that day. Still, each time it has been used, it has been a joy to watch (except for in The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzamiya - that was utter torture).
As much fun as Groundhog Day shenanigans are to watch, they sure wouldn't be much fun to partake in on a level that is less removed. A player is too involved in the experiences of his character for it to amount to anything even resembling an enjoyable experience. S/He would suffer every bit of the suckiness that the character would suffer.
If you pull it off well it will be a testament to your talents as a DM - you would obviously be capable of crafting incredibly genuine experiences. However, sometimes genuine experiences just aren't any fun and it will likely end your campaign. I have endured something similar (a labyrinth that we spent more than 100 hours of real time wading through) and that resulted in the game eventually being abandoned when it was clear that the enjoyment of the game went out the window several sessions ago.

[Naanomi]

I've done a broken time scenario before; they work out well (especially if characters keep gaining XP and levels, so they might overcome challenges that stopped them in earlier rotations)

My advice is keep good notes, the whole gimmick relies on events being identical except for as players influence them... Or other loopers (my version had a villain reliving the same day as well, though they didn't know it at first). Players *will* notice changes 'for no reason'

[YCombinator]

This sounds like a great idea. I think it would be fun. If you don't know about Edge of Tomorrow you should watch it for a more combat and epic goal oriented version of Ground Hog Day. It's Ground Hog Day meets Starship Troupers. The movie itself is not amazing, but totally watchable. For what you're doing it's great research.

You do have to be very careful not to make it tedious, of course. I suggest you structure this as a series of forking choices that the players can rewind to whenever they want to. Your story ends up resembling a tree that the players have complete agency over.

The trick is to allow fast forwarding through every part of the story the characters have been through already. In addition there should benefits for reliving it. For example if the characters have a combat, play it once. If the won, the next time they do it, they should probably take only half the damage. Until finally they basically skate through epically unscathed. When it comes to social interactions allow them to revisit them and say slightly different things. Upping advantages on persuasion and deception as needed.

Imagine this simplified scenario. City is under attack. I wake up and I'm attacked in the street by 5 orcs. I die. I wake up, I decide to go back and fight or avoid it. If I fight, I get advantage on all defense. If I fight again the next day we skip the combat but describe how I magically skate through the battle field with a crit on every shot and magically avoid every attack in an uncanny causal dodge. (See Edge of Tomorrow for example of this)

Next I run to the king and convince him to do something that I think is helpful. I work with him until I find out he's corrupt and he kills me. Draw a tree of this. The players will then say okay we want to go to the first officer instead. You very briefly describe the events that happened up until them. "you fight the orcs, it's amazingly quick. you see that old lady again and ignore her as you have the last 5 times because you already know what she needs to tell you. You get to the first officer." If it's time for another combat, maybe the first officer is under attack. The characters help him in a real combat. Now report the king. The first officer is hasty and tries to confront him, other corrupt individuals are revealed.

The characters might at any point decided to commit suicide. That's fine, run them back to whatever point they want. Describe very quickly the tree path they are following. This will nail down the idea of the story and be fun as long as it's under a minute description every time. That will prevent tedium. You kill the orcs, ignore the old lady, come to the first officer, this time you know how the people attacking him fight, he watches you dispatch his enemies with no problem. He's amazed, now we're at a new part of the story, you're up against the first officer but this time he think's you're some sort of god because of the way you fight.

You players have all kinds of info now. They can say "Trust me this is what's going to happen" the first officer sees it happen. He wonders how it's possible but not trusts them. The players know who is corrupt. With their new knowledge they need to get the first officer to help kill off all the kings corrupt officials. etc.

Never have your players do the same thing twice. Draw a tree of what they have done from start to each progressive end point. Allow them to jump to whatever part of the tree they want to at any time with the new information that they have gained. They can now make a new choice and fork the story off where ever they want.

Keep in mind that some branching of the story will be investigative only but never followed again. For example once they run into the church and torture the cleric for information about the king, they will never need to go into the church again because they know the info. However, they do need to get through the day so one path is going to be the exit. That path they might have to continually come back to and advance piece at a time while continually visiting other parts.

Remember to have multiple solutions, ways out, multiple ways to find the things they need or they might never find them.

I'd love to hear what you come up with, by the way. Post it here and ping me if you think about it.

[PoeticDwarf]

Sounds as great fun. Go for it

[Pex]

I ran something like this in a 3E game. The overall plot is an uber-powerful wizard was in the process of becoming a lich. He teleported a town into a snowglobe that was to become his phylactery. The townspeople would eventually become undead under his control when the lichdom process is complete. While in his sarcophagus, his (living) minions would guard it and the snowglobe. One would occasionally shake the snowglobe.

The party just enters the town when it gets teleported. A Wall of Force effect forms the edge, but the party doesn't know it yet. An earthquake happens, and it snows. (Snowglobe is shaken.) Everyone makes a Will save DC 20. No effect at the moment but know who failed. Party encounters the town recovering from the earthquake. Earthquake happens again, and it snows. The party is instantly back to where they were when they entered the town. No new saving throw. All events are repeated. All who failed the Will save believe they just entered the town as before. Those who made the save know that time is repeating itself. Events don't have to follow the exact same way depending on what the players do, but the set-ups of situations are. Earthquake happens again depending on personal mood and flow of the game as appropriate.

Using "the three clues rule", the players eventually find cause to investigate the well. Going down the well they find a tunnel that leads to a trapped door. Going through the door has them escape the snowglobe where they fight the lich wannabe's minions. Defeating the minions, the party can easily open the sarcophagus and kill the comatose wizard. That breaks the snowglobe freeing the town. Where the party ends up depended on what was happening in the campaign or convention one-shot based on the real world reason I was running that particular adventure.

[EvilAnagram]

There are a lot of great ideas here. Thanks everyone!

[Temperjoke]

The Doctor Who episode, Heaven Sent, used something like this to an extreme, although it wasn't a repeat in the same sense.

[YCombinator]

Hey, I've decided to do something like this in my campaign and would love to continue to collaborate on ideas. Have you developed any more since you last posted? Here's what I've come up with in my looking into it.

Firstly, I watched an episode of Stargate: SG1 called A Window of Opportunity which was available on line and it was fantastic. I am going to derive most of my inspiration of mechanics from it since it fits the D&D world well.

Secondly, I watched a movie called Triangle which I *love* and was surprised I'd never heard of. It has another potentially great mechanic in it.

Thirdly, I watched 12:01, a short film and that was really great as well. All worth it.

Here's my basic structure for how I'm going to run the campaign. All names are going to be changed but for now things have very clear, indicative names to make it easier to follow.

Mechanics overview: The Reverter is a power artifact that can be armed and once it is, it will countdown 24 hours and then violently erupt and revert time back to moments before the Reverter itself was armed. The Reverter can be disarmed by ritual that must be found by the players, as well as the components.

The Preserver is a magic scepter that can expend a usage to hit one creature whose memory is preserved in the event of a reverter explosion. The scepter has just enough charges for the party and the villain. The Preserver is, it self, preserved so it remembers its expended uses. When the reverter goes off it does not regain uses. Being blasted also stuns you for 1d4 rounds. Also you cannot blast yourself, and it requires attunement.

The assistant, a brilliant wizard, has decided to break the laws of magic to revert time to save his loved one who died. The villain, interested in power, helps him do so, and eventually realizes he can adapt the machine not just to travel in time but to loop as explained above. The villain decides he will get hold of a Manual of Quick Action, which allows the reader to gain +2 Dexterity but then loses its magic for a century. He intends to read this for a minor eternity and then allow to world to progress while he is unstoppable.

On the day the plan is supposed to go into action the assistant wakes in a safe house he took shelter in, fearing the worst. He goes invisible to meet the villain, hoping there is still hope for his loved one. This prevents the villain from knowing where he is at the beginning of the day and from easily following his tracks day to day. The assistant blasts the villain and then expects the villain will attune to the preserver and blast him as well, so they can both travel. The villain reveals then that he never intended to do so. The assistant's fears are confirmed.

In a frantic fit of panic, the assistant blasts the villain one more time to stun him and then flees to the street desperate to find anyone to blast with the preserver, knowing that if only the villain were preserved, then on his own tomorrow, the villains day N+1, the villain would be an unstoppable god. Blasting anyone would clue them into the fact that something weird is going on since they themselves would loop and then likely investigate, and attempt to escape.

Frantically the assistant runs out onto the street, takes aim at some commoners, figures they would never be able to do much, he goes for some city guards who are responding to his commotion but they pepper hit with arrows and take cover. About to die he notices the adventuring party, clad in armor and looking like rather capable folks, but caught by surprise. He doesn't know of the party's intentions or good will but it's his only hope so he blasts them one by one.

The guards kill the man and his dying words, directed at the party, are "Find me. You must find me!" after the dust settles from the commotion and the guards reinstate order, an earthquake is felt. The building that the man fled from begins to crumble. An explosion goes off and the players all go unconscious. They wake at full HP where ever they slept last night. Subtle or not subtle clues can be given to indicate to the party that it is the same day. You could being with an encounter or something, and the enemies are again there in the morning. Take care to craft the party's day zero leading up to the first explosion and take good notes.

Once in the loop, the party is afforded some benefits. They are allowed to jump to any part of the day they've already been to making the same choices and if there were any combats they are able to skate through with comedic precision since they know exactly what the enemy will do. After all they might have done this 100 times already. If they ever fail a skill check like stealth or climb, they are allowed to auto pass the next time. Failing allows them to know that on the next time not to make that mistake.

Does anyone have any ideas to add? Possible interesting puzzles or clues to have the adventurer's follow? I think the assistant could write a letter that gets delivered to someone else in the middle of the day and that person might know something is up. They will be able to find the assistant at some point and learn his starting location eventually. If they do they can potentially get to him every morning, reexplain what's going on, and gain knowledge from him day after day. The library will probably provide a lot of benefits.

What benefits could the characters gain from infinitely looping and how do I make sure it doesn't get out of control. I think it'd be neat to allow some permanent character buff from having gone through this. A character might, for example, gain any one free skill training they want. Perhaps a feat. Imagining they are practicing this. Perhaps just get +5 on all knowledge checks about the city henceforth because they have literally read the entire library. But I can't have them taking the Manual of Quick action and reading it over and over. I could say that the villain wrecks the book by starting to read it each morning but may or may not make progress.

The villain is in the loop and potentially gaining a lot of power. Not sure what I'll do here but I might make it so that it's balanced to a character encounter, and not dependent on the days. "You spent 100 days reading the library without finding the villain first. He now has +200 Dex." Sounds a little tough to handle.

Any ideas?

[JackPhoenix]

I don't know, it doesn't seem like it should work. The machine only loops one day, I'm not sure how that should bypass the "Once a 100 year" clause.
If the villain takes the book with him, he'll still have to wait a century of his subjective time before he can use it again, even if that century would be eternal replay of one day. Good luck not going crazy or dying from the old age. If he leaves the book outside the loop, the book would still have its one use expended for the next century, and it won't ever regain it, because in its subjective timeline, no time has passed.
Even with the book, he will be limited to absolute hardcap on ability score, 30.
And even if he wasn't, having arbitrary high dexterity won't make him a god. Sure, he could have NI armor class, Dex save and skills and attack and damage with dex-based weapons...but one Wis- or Con- based spells (the most dangerous types) could still wreck his day. True Polymorph to rock...where's your godlike dexterity now? Or even something as simple as upcasted Sleep

[MBControl]

Fun plan, first of all. I would enjoy playing this.

I might try to develop a method to slightly change things as they get closer to solving the problem. This will encourage the PC's to keep trying new things, and keep them paying attention to the details. So I'll give you an idea to illustrate what I mean.

Let's say there are 3 keys they need to change in order to revert to natural time. Time repeats as normal until one of the puzzles is solved. At that point, continue to repeat time, but make some minor changes to the repeating story. Some words change in the conversations, or the waitress doesn't drop the tray of drinks, or some things like that. Hopefully they will realize that what they just did is part of the key, and will keep doing that, but if they stop, then the story goes back to normal.

This shows the players that they have affected the timeline, and that something they have done has made a positive change in their situation. As I said before, this will help to hold the PC's focus, as a small change will stick out like a sore thumb after all that repetition.

I know this isn't the true groundhog "rules" but it will provide hope, and drive the characters to forge on with creative solutions. Plus watch the players reaction and speculation run wild when something changes.

[MBControl]

Also, thank you. I plan to steal this idea from you, and everybody that has stolen it from groundhog day. Yes, it's a trope, but there is a reason people keep repeating this plot device. Pun intended.

[YCombinator]

I don't know, it doesn't seem like it should work. The machine only loops one day, I'm not sure how that should bypass the "Once a 100 year" clause.


The machine loops back one day to the moment before it was armed. The villain, necessarily always sitting right in front of the machine at that point, has the option to then arm it again.



If the villain takes the book with him, he'll still have to wait a century of his subjective time before he can use it again, even if that century would be eternal replay of one day. Good luck not going crazy or dying from the old age. If he leaves the book outside the loop, the book would still have its one use expended for the next century, and it won't ever regain it, because in its subjective timeline, no time has passed.

The villain does not take the book with him. The no physical matter is take with anyone anywhere. It's like the movie Groundhog Day per the title. All physical matter is reverted to the start of the day. Where ever it was. All items are reverted to their previous state, which is that they still have their charges. All people are also, which is they don't remember the day. Some special people and items have preserved their memories.


Even with the book, he will be limited to absolute hardcap on ability score, 30.

I don't have to obey the rules. I'm the DM. It's magic. This is a major plot line. There's no hard cap on dexterity in my imagination.


And even if he wasn't, having arbitrary high dexterity won't make him a god. Sure, he could have NI armor class, Dex save and skills and attack and damage with dex-based weapons...but one Wis- or Con- based spells (the most dangerous types) could still wreck his day. True Polymorph to rock...where's your godlike dexterity now? Or even something as simple as upcasted Sleep

Fine, he's not a god. But he is still extremely powerful. I could also add the manual that give strength and constitution to it as well. Call it what you will, he's an evil person who's going to get stronger to a point where it's really hard to deal with him. I think that's motivation enough to try to stop it.

[JackPhoenix]

The machine loops back one day to the moment before it was armed. The villain, necessarily always sitting right in front of the machine at that point, has the option to then arm it again.

The villain does not take the book with him. The no physical matter is take with anyone anywhere. It's like the movie Groundhog Day per the title. All physical matter is reverted to the start of the day. Where ever it was. All items are reverted to their previous state, which is that they still have their charges. All people are also, which is they don't remember the day. Some special people and items have preserved their memories.

Fair point. I misunderstood how it's supposed to work. However, getting the benefit of the manual still takes 48 total hours of reading spread through at most 6 days. So looping one day won't help that much


I don't have to obey the rules. I'm the DM. It's magic. This is a major plot line. There's no hard cap on dexterity in my imagination.

Fair point again, though I was going by the RAW and was unaware you're using a house rule.

[YCombinator]

Fun plan, first of all. I would enjoy playing this.

I might try to develop a method to slightly change things as they get closer to solving the problem. This will encourage the PC's to keep trying new things, and keep them paying attention to the details. So I'll give you an idea to illustrate what I mean.

Let's say there are 3 keys they need to change in order to revert to natural time. Time repeats as normal until one of the puzzles is solved. At that point, continue to repeat time, but make some minor changes to the repeating story. Some words change in the conversations, or the waitress doesn't drop the tray of drinks, or some things like that. Hopefully they will realize that what they just did is part of the key, and will keep doing that, but if they stop, then the story goes back to normal.

This shows the players that they have affected the timeline, and that something they have done has made a positive change in their situation. As I said before, this will help to hold the PC's focus, as a small change will stick out like a sore thumb after all that repetition.

I know this isn't the true groundhog "rules" but it will provide hope, and drive the characters to forge on with creative solutions. Plus watch the players reaction and speculation run wild when something changes.

I like the idea of bending the Groundhog Day "rules" and making it so that some changes can actually effect the time line but only subtly. It might be really hard to pull off or give a mechanical reason to justify why. I can't offhand thank of why a change to the reverter would cause a waiter to not drop a dish on a second go round, for example. Perhaps rituals that are performed to stop the reverter are also permanent to the time line. I'll have to think about that a little bit more.


Also, thank you. I plan to steal this idea from you, and everybody that has stolen it from groundhog day. Yes, it's a trope, but there is a reason people keep repeating this plot device. Pun intended.

I'm glad you're interested in running it. I think we should keep all DMs who are developing something like this in the loop so we can all share ideas. I know I'm hoping to bounce my off people. Let me know if you come up with any ideas or if you end up running it, what happens and what your players do.

[MBControl]

About the reverter "trigger" being constant with the timeline, that's the way my mind was seeing it. As far as explaining why the waitress doesn't drop the drinks, you have no reason to explain it. The fun will be letting the PC's try to explain it. The important thing is that it changed. It's basically the butterfly effect, a chain of events that led to a random change your players will notice.

. . . . bar patron doesn't get kicked in the leg, therefore he doesn't have his leg stretched out into the aisle, therefore the waitress doesn't trip on his foot.

The change will just inform the team that something they did, created a "permanent" change in the timeline, it doesn't have to mean any more. In fact, if the change makes too much sense, you may give too much information to the group. If the group is stuck, you can make the change more helpful.

[EvilAnagram]

There are some great ideas here! I like the idea of the preserver artifact that allows the party to be aware of the loop. I'm not sure that reading a Manual of Quickness of Action is the best way to accumulate power, though.

I was thinking of dividing the day into signature moments. The start of the loop is marked by X happening. The Stargate episode used a boring conversation for one character while the other got hit in the face with a door. Every. Single. Loop.

There's a lot of comic potential in being able to signify the start of a loop with something vaguely embarrassing or annoying. I also like the idea of having the loop end at a point of maximum possible reward. The king is about to recognize them with great honors. The merchant is about to shower them with gold. A princess is about to agree to... things. And then bam, you just stepped in cow dung.

There should be other setpiece events: a crime in progress, a building burns down, a creature rampages through the streets. At first, these things challenge the players, but they figure out a way to easily preempt them and learn more about what's going on. I really like the idea of certain challenges becoming auto-successes as with the original movie.

I think villain motivation is pretty important, as the discussion above has shown. What exactly is the antagonist after if someone is doing this intentionally. Maybe they want one last day with their dying wife? Or maybe they're trying to save someone who cannot be saved? Maybe something worse is coming, and they're trying to buy time to stop it? Or maybe they're simply trying to master time because wizard.

I'm really enjoying the discussion.

[Estrillian]

Not D&D, but the Call of Cthulhu sourcebook Ramsey Campbell's Goatswood and Less Pleasant Places (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ramsey-Campbells-Goatswood-Pleasant-Places/dp/1568821530) has a time-loop adventure in it. In this the players go through time multiple times while the villain goes through it at multiple different points in her life, each time attempting to change what her previous self did (or what the players did). That is, there is a semi-stable time loop before the players get there, with young, middle-aged and old versions of the villain at different points in the same day.

Another great source of time-loop plots is Star Trek, they loved them in next-gen, and established the TV idea that all you really need to set up the idea is a single repeating scene where some distinctive things happen. I'd prepare the first scene that the character's see in exquisite detail, because it is that scene which will persuade them that they are in a repeating loop. Generally something accidental happens - a person drops a tray, someone bumps into someone else. That scene is going to frame each trip through the loop, and it saves you from having to describe a whole bunch of stuff. Do the first scene and then fast-forward to whatever they are changing.

[YCombinator]

There are some great ideas here! I like the idea of the preserver artifact that allows the party to be aware of the loop. I'm not sure that reading a Manual of Quickness of Action is the best way to accumulate power, though.

Have any other suggestions? I'm also not even *totally* convinced that the villain needs to be in the loop with my players. The villain could very easily have set out to trigger the device on day zero, does so every loop day, and is difficult to find, as well as is the device. There is a certain interest to having only the players in the loop as well as having the players and a villain in it. I'm torn, honestly. If the villain is in the loop, I still need to have his plan and hopefully it's something the players cannot copy.


I was thinking of dividing the day into signature moments. The start of the loop is marked by X happening. The Stargate episode used a boring conversation for one character while the other got hit in the face with a door. Every. Single. Loop.

There's a lot of comic potential in being able to signify the start of a loop with something vaguely embarrassing or annoying.

Yeah, I like this a lot. It might be cool if the party is slightly separated at the time so that they can all have their own versions of that happening. Potentially I could just have them together but everyone one of them stepping in dog poo, being doused by waste water dumped to the street from a second story window, slipping on a banana peel, all at the same moment... might be a weird if they are together. It could just be all of them in one event, like the waste water dousing the group.


I also like the idea of having the loop end at a point of maximum possible reward. The king is about to recognize them with great honors. The merchant is about to shower them with gold. A princess is about to agree to... things. And then bam, you just stepped in cow dung.

Hm, maybe. That's a tough one though. That reward point would really have to be something that was either set in motion from Day -1 or it needs to be remade everyday by the players. It could be, certainly, that they are on their way to a reward ceremony with the king or something like that. Hard to say. I'll definitely give this some thought.


There should be other setpiece events: a crime in progress, a building burns down, a creature rampages through the streets. At first, these things challenge the players, but they figure out a way to easily preempt them and learn more about what's going on. I really like the idea of certain challenges becoming auto-successes as with the original movie.

Yes definitely. I have been writing up a lot of different character's day zeros right now. I think that the crime in progress is a great one I might add. I ton of various people in minor or major trouble, all of whom can help the characters, whether they know it or not, if they players save the NPCs and they are grateful.

Potentially, also, the events could go two different ways and be helpful puzzle pieces in two ways. Here's an example. There's a robbery in progress and they are taking a lot of gold. They players decide they will thwart this. They do so. The nobel who they rescue is not killed in the robbery. As a result, he ends up friendly to them and when they beg for a way to get into the castle, the nobel says he will escort them. There is something in the castle that the players need to do. Once they do it they find the location of the thieves guild.

When they later go to the thieves guild the guild offers to sell them a potion of invisibility. But they don't have the money. Now that they don't need to go into the castle anymore, they can go to the robbery and let it happen, but rob the robbers when they are done. Or scoop them and rob the nobel first. Either way. They take the money, pay the guild, get the potion, sneak into another location, etc. From that point onward, armed with the information, then revert to saving the nobel.

I'd want to come up with a bunch of events like these that can chain together in any number of ways. Obeying the law of threes when it comes to clues, yes, in case anyone way going to bring it up. I think it's one of the more interesting aspects of being able to live the day several ways through is that you can put the pieces together different ways.

I'd love to hear some story points like the one I laid out above that could be one of the many standard city events that the players could get involved in in ordered to eventually uncover the way to break the loop.


I think villain motivation is pretty important, as the discussion above has shown. What exactly is the antagonist after if someone is doing this intentionally. Maybe they want one last day with their dying wife? Or maybe they're trying to save someone who cannot be saved? Maybe something worse is coming, and they're trying to buy time to stop it? Or maybe they're simply trying to master time because wizard.

I'm really enjoying the discussion.

Yeah I'm enjoying it a lot too. I'm hoping to build up a fairly detailed as well and fairly malleable adventure module that I can write up with all of the basic concepts so that others can run it. It might be a cool idea to try to Wikibook it or develop it in a comity to solicit ideas of anyone interested. I'm going to run the adventure as soon as I can get the plot points nail down enough.

[krugaan]

if you want to make it even more groundhog-gy, pre-roll a bunch of dice and keep the results on a sheet of paper. Then reuse the same rolls in the same order everytime they do the same day/encounter/whatever.

As an alternate, you keep track of all the rolls the first time through, and then reuse those rolls next time. If they get further and need to generate more numbers, roll as normal, append to the fate-sheet, then reuse, and so on and so forth.

You could allow them to reroll (and replace!) a preroll whenever they try something different (persuade instead of intimidate or whatever), and yeah, handwave a particular encounter if they've done it enough times, or let them look at the preroll list if they've done a part often enough.

I second the watching "Edge of Tomorrow", I liked it. Well, enough to watch again. Although really, it's like save points in any vg-rpg.

Edit: Story Ideas

- mystery on how to trigger the resets in the first place (Touch a Macguffin, die, kill a certain recurring monster, do a little dance, whatever)
... im tapped out, i'll think of more, this is interesting

[JeenLeen]

You may want to look at the videogame Ephemeral Fantasia. It wasn't great in my opinion, but the plot is something like the villain has an island in a time-loop of x-many days. I forget his plan, and why the main character is immune, but I think part of it is that the longer the main character is there, the more likely he will get stuck in the loop.

Also, he can wake people out of the loop if he somehow makes them realize what's happening. (It's how you gain members of your party.)

Basically, it might give you some ideas.
This does sound like it could be fun. I think the biggest challenge would be any 'time limit' to prevent the PCs from training for a century and/or the final boss from being unbeatable. Unfortunately, if the final boss's plan is "become invincible through training", that makes it tough.

[YCombinator]

if you want to make it even more groundhog-gy, pre-roll a bunch of dice and keep the results on a sheet of paper. Then reuse the same rolls in the same order everytime they do the same day/encounter/whatever.

As an alternate, you keep track of all the rolls the first time through, and then reuse those rolls next time. If they get further and need to generate more numbers, roll as normal, append to the fate-sheet, then reuse, and so on and so forth.

You could allow them to reroll (and replace!) a preroll whenever they try something different (persuade instead of intimidate or whatever), and yeah, handwave a particular encounter if they've done it enough times, or let them look at the preroll list if they've done a part often enough.

I think this is basically what I'm doing, except that I'm not keeping track of the exact dice rolls. I'm keeping track of the outcomes. I don't actually want to have to have the players relive the same events over and over the way the characters do. That would be pretty tedious. So micro adjustments to the rolls don't really matter. I'll just hand wave and say "Okay you've tried to persuade that character so many times, in so many ways. The best you've ever done is this. So you're allowed to get that result whenever you want."


Although really, it's like save points in any vg-rpg.


Yeah it's save points but you have them infinitely available at every point of your day as well as previously lived days. I think the characters will really get a kick out of the amount of power they have from that. I'm excited to see what they plan to do with it. I'm already planning to give out tool, language, skill, weapon training if they try for them. Potentially other bonuses. I really can't have them get a hold of the Manual of Quick Action though. That would be very unbalancing. Many people meh on the idea of the villain's evil plot to be to read the manual of quick action over and over again, btw. I don't really have a better plan though.

[krugaan]

I think this is basically what I'm doing, except that I'm not keeping track of the exact dice rolls. I'm keeping track of the outcomes. I don't actually want to have to have the players relive the same events over and over the way the characters do. That would be pretty tedious. So micro adjustments to the rolls don't really matter. I'll just hand wave and say "Okay you've tried to persuade that character so many times, in so many ways. The best you've ever done is this. So you're allowed to get that result whenever you want."

Yes, but I meant ALL rolls with a particular die, skill rolls, attack rolls, whatever for both the party and npcs / monsters. If you do it right, it'll become a different game, where you have to match the order and timing of things (because the party can control what order they roll for initiative, etc) with the rolls they know are coming up.


Yeah it's save points but you have them infinitely available at every point of your day as well as previously lived days. I think the characters will really get a kick out of the amount of power they have from that. I'm excited to see what they plan to do with it. I'm already planning to give out tool, language, skill, weapon training if they try for them. Potentially other bonuses. I really can't have them get a hold of the Manual of Quick Action though. That would be very unbalancing. Many people meh on the idea of the villain's evil plot to be to read the manual of quick action over and over again, btw. I don't really have a better plan though.

Well, the Manual of Quick Action involves exercise and whatnot, I guess it depends on what exactly you allowed to carry over.

[EvilAnagram]

Have any other suggestions? I'm also not even *totally* convinced that the villain needs to be in the loop with my players. The villain could very easily have set out to trigger the device on day zero, does so every loop day, and is difficult to find, as well as is the device. There is a certain interest to having only the players in the loop as well as having the players and a villain in it. I'm torn, honestly. If the villain is in the loop, I still need to have his plan and hopefully it's something the players cannot copy.
One thing that could be cool is having an antagonist who doesn't realize that he's causing a time loop. He fiddled with a time whatsit and now we're all in a loop. The end-game has to revolve around turning off the time whatsit by appeasing some deity, killing a time demon, or figuring out how to shut it off.

Another option is to use that as a fake-out, making it look like the time whatsit is an accident, but in reality a puppet master is pulling strings.




Hm, maybe. That's a tough one though. That reward point would really have to be something that was either set in motion from Day -1 or it needs to be remade everyday by the players. It could be, certainly, that they are on their way to a reward ceremony with the king or something like that. Hard to say. I'll definitely give this some thought.
Definitely. It would have to be a major reward for a quest they just finished, and just as the king is about to lay honors and treasure at their feet, it resets.

You've already got a ton of great ideas.

[YCombinator]

Yes, but I meant ALL rolls with a particular die, skill rolls, attack rolls, whatever for both the party and npcs / monsters. If you do it right, it'll become a different game, where you have to match the order and timing of things (because the party can control what order they roll for initiative, etc) with the rolls they know are coming up.

Yeah it would be a very different game. I don't think I want to do that game.


Well, the Manual of Quick Action involves exercise and whatnot, I guess it depends on what exactly you allowed to carry over.

Yeah, true. I'm willing to ignore that if MoQA is the villainous plot I need to go with. I'm still seeking out some others.


One thing that could be cool is having an antagonist who doesn't realize that he's causing a time loop. He fiddled with a time whatsit and now we're all in a loop. The end-game has to revolve around turning off the time whatsit by appeasing some deity, killing a time demon, or figuring out how to shut it off.

I've been seriously considering this for a while. It has some advantages. With only the players in the loop, we're free of any issues where the villain goes unchecked for too long, achieves his goal, and ends the loop himself, and they fail. Or perhaps the villain becomes too powerful. Or I have to contrive of some reason of why he's not getting arbitrarily too powerful even though I've stated that that's how it works.

The mission is fairly similar. Stop the loop. Their's just not a sentient bad actor in the loop. He can still be their at the end with his existing power level, to fight off anyone who would seek to ruin the plan.


Another option is to use that as a fake-out, making it look like the time whatsit is an accident, but in reality a puppet master is pulling strings.

Hm, I can't picture this. Care to explain with an example?


Definitely. It would have to be a major reward for a quest they just finished, and just as the king is about to lay honors and treasure at their feet, it resets.

Yeah, I do like the idea that the characters can go from "You are heroes and we're all indebted to you. We'd like to reward you with this... you are all now doused with waste water. It's early morning again." over and over. It would be funny.

I imagine this as well though... The final state of the day has a final end state. Throughout the day, they've saved people's lives. If they do... they are rewarded. If they save several lives they are rewarded even more. On some iterations, the day ends with this reward ceremony. The magnitude of it is measured by the number of lives they have saved over the course of the day.

Some days, the characters need to do the wrong thing. Like the example I gave where they chose to rob the robbers who kill the nobel instead of save him in order to spend the money on something for the thieves guild for one day. That day might end up with them arrested or at least the guard searching for them. But once they figure out the info they figure out from benefiting from the money, they can go back to not allowing the nobel to die.

Now here's the twist. It turns out that after all of this info gathering (which is the only way they can advance) that they find out the reverter is fueled by soles. At least one person needs to die within the reverter's sphere or influence between when it's armed and when it will go off or it fails to work. Once the characters take all of the paths then need to learn that fact, and learn where the villain is, and that he will sacrifice someone in order to ensure there is a death, they need to run to the villain, kill him, save the sacrifice, and then spend the rest of the day dashing to all the other people who would die and save their lives and the revert fails to work, causing the award ceremony at the end not only to be the biggest it can be, but also finally be able to complete.

Throw in a dying, old women who's dying of old age but a recurring character for extra dramatic effect. She ends up being saved by all the magic the characters can throw at her. But in the end, though she survives the loop, which is required to end it, she dies on day N+1 anyway, when they go back to visit her, because it's just her time anyway.


You've already got a ton of great ideas.

Yeah I think so. Largely because of your originally really cool idea. I'm going to keep the thread going as much as possible to generate ideas with people. I think the more we get all our good ideas out the better.

[EvilAnagram]

Hm, I can't picture this. Care to explain with an example?
Sure. An amateur mage was tinkering with the time reverter and accidentally set it off. When the party finally stops it, they ask where he got it and it turns out a shady figure sold it to him at a discount. It turns out, the shady figure was a vicious trickster who gave it to him because he was feeding off the stole energy of the lives they could have lived.



Yeah, I do like the idea that the characters can go from "You are heroes and we're all indebted to you. We'd like to reward you with this... you are all now doused with waste water. It's early morning again." over and over. It would be funny.

I imagine this as well though... The final state of the day has a final end state. Throughout the day, they've saved people's lives. If they do... they are rewarded. If they save several lives they are rewarded even more. On some iterations, the day ends with this reward ceremony. The magnitude of it is measured by the number of lives they have saved over the course of the day.

Some days, the characters need to do the wrong thing. Like the example I gave where they chose to rob the robbers who kill the nobel instead of save him in order to spend the money on something for the thieves guild for one day. That day might end up with them arrested or at least the guard searching for them. But once they figure out the info they figure out from benefiting from the money, they can go back to not allowing the nobel to die.

Now here's the twist. It turns out that after all of this info gathering (which is the only way they can advance) that they find out the reverter is fueled by soles. At least one person needs to die within the reverter's sphere or influence between when it's armed and when it will go off or it fails to work. Once the characters take all of the paths then need to learn that fact, and learn where the villain is, and that he will sacrifice someone in order to ensure there is a death, they need to run to the villain, kill him, save the sacrifice, and then spend the rest of the day dashing to all the other people who would die and save their lives and the revert fails to work, causing the award ceremony at the end not only to be the biggest it can be, but also finally be able to complete.

Throw in a dying, old women who's dying of old age but a recurring character for extra dramatic effect. She ends up being saved by all the magic the characters can throw at her. But in the end, though she survives the loop, which is required to end it, she dies on day N+1 anyway, when they go back to visit her, because it's just her time anyway.

I love this plan from beginning to end. It's fantastic.

[Rysto]

Now here's the twist. It turns out that after all of this info gathering (which is the only way they can advance) that they find out the reverter is fueled by soles. At least one person needs to die within the reverter's sphere or influence between when it's armed and when it will go off or it fails to work. Once the characters take all of the paths then need to learn that fact, and learn where the villain is, and that he will sacrifice someone in order to ensure there is a death, they need to run to the villain, kill him, save the sacrifice, and then spend the rest of the day dashing to all the other people who would die and save their lives and the revert fails to work, causing the award ceremony at the end not only to be the biggest it can be, but also finally be able to complete.

Wait, but won't killing the BBEG fuel the reverter? So they have to stop him without killing him.


It's an interesting idea, but I do have one objection. What happens if the PCs fail to save one of their targets? Do they have to do the whole day over again? That could get really old, really fast.

[YCombinator]

Wait, but won't killing the BBEG fuel the reverter? So they have to stop him without killing him.

Yeah, it would require in prisoning him, or leaving him unconscious. They could maybe kill him on the day N+1.


It's an interesting idea, but I do have one objection. What happens if the PCs fail to save one of their targets? Do they have to do the whole day over again? That could get really old, really fast.

Yes, it would require doing the whole day over again but this is a built in mechanic. The players are allowed to jump in time to whenever they want. It's actually exactly like normal D&D. Do you want to walk 30 days from city to city? Fine. There will be a few random encounters but we will just fast forward through the walking time.

I imagine a play session like this would go as follows. This is extremely minimalist btw.

You play out encounter of saving the nobel from a robbery.
They get to the reverter after finding clues to how to find it.
The see a dead body of a sacrifice and the villain.
They fight the villain and kill him.
They find the villain's documents of the machine and that gives them info about anyone dying causes the machine to continue.
They realize no one can die.
Time is reverted.
They run as fast as they can to the villain but see new encounter of a deadly fight they'd never known about and they save that person by playing out the encounter.
They run more to the villain and see the sacrifice has already happened. Damn.

So now, we have played out killing the villain, played out saving the nobel, played out saving the other deadly fight. At this point we've played them all exactly once. The character then simply tell me verbally. "We want to commit suicide, run straight passed the fight in the street, incapacitate the villain, run back and save the street fighters."I then report "You get there just in the nick of time. The victim is bleeding out but you cast cure wounds." They then simply say "We go to the nobel, save him, the fifth thing, do that, the other thing we did. I say great. It is becoming about that time... and nothing reverts.

I think it becomes very non-tedious with the right about of "We've done this before, we skip it." style play.

[Naanomi]

An interesting twist is that the time loop can be a *good* thing: it keeps the villain trapped instead of ascending to Godhood or whatever. This splits the game into two Acts: find out how to stop the loop, then find out how to do it without 'unleashing' the villain

[Rysto]

Yes, it would require doing the whole day over again but this is a built in mechanic. The players are allowed to jump in time to whenever they want.

Ok. In practice what this means is that the players get to keep doing over the last encounter until they get it right, which feels a bit videogamey to me, but it's not inherently bad or wrong. However, I'd like to propose this modification: it takes the death of three people to fuel the time loop. I think that this has some nice effects: first, the players have a choice whether to burn one of those deaths killing the BBEG, which is faster and easier, or they can try to capture him and hold him, which is a lot harder but allows them one more failure. Second, it means that when the PCs suffer a third death, they have a choice to re-do just that one encounter, or go back further to undo other deaths as well (but potentially undoing some successes that they would then have to repeat).

I like the idea of presenting the PCs with these types of tactical options.

[YCombinator]

Ok. In practice what this means is that the players get to keep doing over the last encounter until they get it right, which feels a bit videogamey to me, but it's not inherently bad or wrong. However, I'd like to propose this modification: it takes the death of three people to fuel the time loop. I think that this has some nice effects: first, the players have a choice whether to burn one of those deaths killing the BBEG, which is faster and easier, or they can try to capture him and hold him, which is a lot harder but allows them one more failure. Second, it means that when the PCs suffer a third death, they have a choice to re-do just that one encounter, or go back further to undo other deaths as well (but potentially undoing some successes that they would then have to repeat).

I like the idea of presenting the PCs with these types of tactical options.

Well, I'll be slightly pedantic here just to make sure we're understanding each other. It does not mean that the players get to keep doing over the last encounter until they get it right. I agree that is a bit video-gamey and I'm not really into that. What it does mean is that the *characters* get to keep doing over the last encounter until they get it right.

What this means to me is that I will do every encounter exactly once. If they repeat a day and decide to go back to that combat, I will skip it and say okay, you do they combat. In fact they are allowed to jump to the 3-hours later after that combat assuming they have already been there once in that way. I have added that they will be able to do better on combats if they do them again. So I will say "You do all the same stuff you did up until you meet the little old lady. Those two combats you had went way better because you know the future so you all have full HP."

I do not want my players playing an encounter once, then coming back to it, playing the identical encounter but this time trying a different strategy. That would be tedious for many puzzle, intrigue, and even normal groups. Some very combat, power gamey groups might love that though. My group is a puzzle, intrigue heavy group.

Another option, suggested here, which I'm likely not to do either, is to remember the dice rolls and allow the players, knowing the rolls, to change up what they do because they know the future. This is also another very video-gamey option.

I'd like to say that neither are bad. Either could be fun with the right group. I just am pretty sure my players and me for that matter wouldn't enjoy those. So I think my way of running it preserves the feel of a D&D game very much. Skipping to another part of the day is exactly like skipping passed a boring 30-day trek. The difference of course is that weird things are happening to the character's abilities to handle things, since some of them they've handled before.