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View Full Version : DM Help Plot hooks for dungeon crawls?



Iguanodon
2016-04-09, 07:38 PM
In the 5e campaign I've been running for a few months now, my players (all new to TRPGs) tend to sort of shy away from combat in general. This is most often perfectly reasonable in-character, and I'm really happy that they enjoy role-playing as much as they do. However, this means the campaign has a really bad combat-noncombat balance.

I just ran a session with no combat at all; the players repeatedly engineered their way out of danger. This was cool but I think the pace suffered a lot; I could tell most of my players were pretty bored. I really think a sort of old-school "let's go loot that tower full of treasure" dungeon crawl might strike a good balance, and be enjoyable for everyone if I can include enough lore hooks. Problem is, they would never put themselves in that situation, and if I forced them into it I'd be a total jerk and it wouldn't feel fair if, say, there were a character death.

How do I trick my players into doing a dungeon crawl? I'm looking for lore hooks, clever table tricks, pacing strategies, anything that might help. The game world is in the "points of light" style, if that helps.

Thrudd
2016-04-09, 08:58 PM
In the 5e campaign I've been running for a few months now, my players (all new to TRPGs) tend to sort of shy away from combat in general. This is most often perfectly reasonable in-character, and I'm really happy that they enjoy role-playing as much as they do. However, this means the campaign has a really bad combat-noncombat balance.

I just ran a session with no combat at all; the players repeatedly engineered their way out of danger. This was cool but I think the pace suffered a lot; I could tell most of my players were pretty bored. I really think a sort of old-school "let's go loot that tower full of treasure" dungeon crawl might strike a good balance, and be enjoyable for everyone if I can include enough lore hooks. Problem is, they would never put themselves in that situation, and if I forced them into it I'd be a total jerk and it wouldn't feel fair if, say, there were a character death.

How do I trick my players into doing a dungeon crawl? I'm looking for lore hooks, clever table tricks, pacing strategies, anything that might help. The game world is in the "points of light" style, if that helps.

What motivates the players, now? The game rules should be motivating them to seek XP/levels for their characters. How you award XP is the main factor in what they will seek to do during the game.

Introduce a rule that from now on, XP will only be awarded for treasure recovered from dungeons and, in lesser amount, for defeating enemies. There should simply be no way to gain levels without adventuring. Reveal that dungeons full of lost treasure and magic are scattered across the world - they will go look for them.

Barring that, I assume you're using some sort of goal-based XP system. In that case, have quest givers ask them to retrieve something/someone from a dungeon - XP comes upon completion of the mission. Search for the lost whatever - XP awarded after they have returned with their newfound knowledge of whatever. Investigate and report on something - strange monsters seen in the hills, find out what they are, what they can do, where they are coming from - XP awarded for delving deep and reporting back. Notice that the important thing for rewarding XP should always be getting back from the dangerous place after having accomplished something. Your adventure location/dungeon and the journey to get there will be fraught with perils, not all of which can be talked down or avoided.

Things traditionally found in dungeons:

magic items, lost holy relics, artifacts, that are unable to be manufactured by any means - the only way to get them is to find them where they lay, in abandoned, buried temples and lost cities and the hoards of dragons.

Kidnapped people - monsters/cultists/villains have taken one or more prisoners or slaves to their fortress/lair.

Temple to demons or forgotten/strange/evil gods - something has awoken, find it's source and turn it off

Portal to another dimension/plane - similar to demon temple, but maybe less sinister. See where it goes, who/what lives there, and if it can be used or destroyed


You shouldn't need to trick them into it, the game rules should make them want and look for danger/adventures/dungeons. Hanging out in town talking to people is all well and good, but there should be no game reward for doing this. If you want the game to be about adventure, they should only be rewarded for going on adventures. Adventures require assuming risk, danger, the unknown. Reward for sneaking by a sleeping giant to get home with a sack full of treasure? yes. Reward for choosing not to look for treasure because there might be a giant there? No way.

Zman
2016-04-09, 09:09 PM
My groups Bard just did a really in character in thing, brought an ancient set of half plate belonging to a long dead human empire to a eccentric lore master of a particular household. In return he was given a book written in "old common", basically it took three days and successful Int checks to read. In it he read a couple wonderful stories about a particular adventurous human bard. The book was written by the bard, and he alsays left an unfinished copy in the hands of others in case he didn't make it back. The stories talk about his love affair with an Elven maid.... Now two centuries later a powerful fey warlock defending her woods and people. The stories told of him finding a powerful bardic instrument, a Speaking Stone, and described its uses and its powers. One story talked about how the Elven woman took him to an ancient Elven crypt of a powerful Bladesinger, she warned him to leave it in peace and so long as she was there he would be safe. It continues that he parted ways with the Elven woman and years later the Elven bladesinger's crypt has been eating at him and the book ends with him venturing back.

It is a tasty plot hook for an item any Bard would kill to have. They know one contact that can help, the Elven woman, and it will lead to a dangerous crude. This one happens to be filled with animated suits of Elven armor, helmed horrors, and shield guardians in addition to some magical traps. It's a shorter dungeon crawls, but right now we have three of our five man party itching to explore this place.

That is how I do it.

Brendanicus
2016-04-09, 10:37 PM
How hard are your combats? The problem you have could be different from the problem you think you have. If all of your combats are hard, your players might not want to anything that involves conflict, as to preserve their characters' lives. Maybe your game needs to be easier.

Although, they may just not like D&D. That is also a possibility.

Traab
2016-04-09, 11:50 PM
Inn Keeper Dave: "Im serious! Some archmage decided that regular towers full of monsters was boring and went and built himself a big tower full of puzzles and traps! He set out word that all are welcome to try their luck, and if you manage to overcome the obstacles you win a prize! He uses your progress to fine tune his traps and puzzles to make them even harder the next time. Lots of groups have tried for it, but only a couple have made it to the top. You should give it a try if you are getting bored hanging out in town."

Then you build said tower, include traps and puzzles where, if they cant solve it, or screw up, they fight a battle of some sort. If they make it to the top, give them a big congrat speech and an item for each of them. This way they get to do noncombat puzzles, when they fail to solve them they are put into battles they have no choice but to fight, and hopefully everyone goes home happy.

Kol Korran
2016-04-09, 11:53 PM
A few questions:
- something doesn't add up: You're saying that they are bores of the pace, yet they continuously seek ways to keep that pace. Why? Is the entire group bpredators of the pace, or just some of the players. Are you?
- Why do they seek to avoid combat? Do they fear combat, or so they like being clever and circumvent it?
- You say that the game has "bad combat to non-combat ratio". Bad how? What makes it bad? Different people come to the game for different things. (Look for "the 8 aesthetics of play". It can really help figure out play style problems). In my group for example, some of the best fun was with no combat sessions or periods.
- What are the players (Not CHARACTERS!) interested in? What makes them excited, thrilled, engaged?
- What motivates the characters? Known the basics of the game's history can help us help you?
- Why dungeons specifically? Combat can easily be done outside of dungeon, and in some cases it can be more exciting- bigger spaces and influences, different tactics...

I have a feeling this problem stems mostly from play style difference. I really suggest looking the aesthetics article up.

Kelb_Panthera
2016-04-10, 12:15 AM
No need to trick them. Drop a hook for an adventure that requires a mcguffin. Put said mcguffin at the bottom of a proper dungeon. They go through the dungeon to get the mcguffin or the bad thingtm happens; the evil gets out of its can, the dark prophecy comes to pass, the bad guy wins because his proof against everything-but-the-other-mcguffin mcguffin made it possible. You get the idea.

Iguanodon
2016-04-10, 09:55 AM
Lots of great responses in this thread; keep 'em coming! I'm going to answer this first, though:


A few questions:
- something doesn't add up: You're saying that they are bores of the pace, yet they continuously seek ways to keep that pace. Why? Is the entire group bpredators of the pace, or just some of the players. Are you?
- Why do they seek to avoid combat? Do they fear combat, or so they like being clever and circumvent it?
- You say that the game has "bad combat to non-combat ratio". Bad how? What makes it bad? Different people come to the game for different things. (Look for "the 8 aesthetics of play". It can really help figure out play style problems). In my group for example, some of the best fun was with no combat sessions or periods.
- What are the players (Not CHARACTERS!) interested in? What makes them excited, thrilled, engaged?
- What motivates the characters? Known the basics of the game's history can help us help you?
- Why dungeons specifically? Combat can easily be done outside of dungeon, and in some cases it can be more exciting- bigger spaces and influences, different tactics...

I have a feeling this problem stems mostly from play style difference. I really suggest looking the aesthetics article up.

The players are all new to D&D, and aren't really motivated as much by gaining experience and leveling up as long-time players would be. Some of them come from video games, and their normal method of adventuring is to seek out quest-givers with money to pay them. Most of the dungeon plot hooks I've left haven't been in this category, which I think is part of the problem.

The four players are all enjoying the game at different times and in different ways: one player likes digging up lore about the world, one likes interacting with NPCs a lot, one is mostly just hanging out with the rest of us (which is fine, no problem there), and the last one seems most comfortable when things are moving at a good pace (i.e. in combat). Their favorite encounter I ran was a one-session quest where they investigated a cheese-monger's basement for rats and he locked them inside, demanding gold, and they had to fight their way out. I'm still getting used to their play styles, but I think a longer combat-focused mission with strong plot ties is at least worth a shot. My goal isn't to force combat on them, it's to keep the pace up so everyone can be engaged. Combat is just one way to do that, so maybe "bad combat to non-combat ratio" wasn't the right phrasing.

Most of the characters have specific and interesting quest hooks built into them (the wizard sold his soul and wants it back, for example). There have been cool moments when they've followed these hooks, but I kind of want to save them for later. I'm really impressed with the players; they all made really interesting characters on the first try, which is awesome.

Here's a problem: When they see a monster (or hear about one as a hook I've dropped), they say, "that sounds dangerous; let's not go there." I want to trick them into seeking out danger of their own volition.

I hope this helps. Please keep the responses coming!

Gildedragon
2016-04-10, 01:23 PM
A trip into the underdark could be just what you need. Tunnels full of monsters and traps, monstrous NPCs living in the tunnels, and lots of lore. Seed: trade between two underdark villages has been stopped because the tunnels have become infested.
Traps have been set to keep the infestation at bay.
Since the village they stumble in is mostly low hp low level npcs the npcs ask for help. The infestation is waaaay above their power level and their defenses are bound to fail at some point. Meanwhile they can't send the staple they grow to the bigger town; other town is liable to starve sans the fungi.
So NPC interaction with a guide, some lore digging to find out how to control the infestation, and then combat to control.

Other idea: mountain trip, they fall into a tomb. Roots and branches and loose dirt make the falling damage be not lethal, but climbing won't be a possibility (provided they don't have flight. If they have flight this hook is likely gonna be abandoned) so their option is to explore the tomb-complex/abandoned dwarvish stronghold/abandoned underground laboratory for a way out and/or treasure.
Strange writing on the wall, or in dusty old books or tablets, details the nature of the place. Monsters (either built in guardians, environment generated ones, or moved-in-tennants) provide combat and NPC interactions.

JAL_1138
2016-04-10, 02:17 PM
Back in Ye Olde Days, the way you got players to go to a dungeon was to basically just say "There's rumored to be a dungeon at [location]. If it's true, there might be some loot in it." And we'd go, every time. As soon as we bought some 10ft poles, ladders, rope, rope ladders, twine, wire, knives, axes, hatchets, hammers, sledgehammers, shovels, pickaxes, torches, mirrors, pitons, iron spikes, chisels, crowbars, prybars, acid flasks, chalk, charcoal, paper, spare lockpicks, bags of sand, bags of flour, a wheelbarrow, burlap sacks, a wagon, a draft horse, various scrolls, various potions, some strong liquor, spell components, food and water for ourselves, food and water for the draft horse, enough tents and bedrolls for all of us, and finally recruited half a dozen redshirts hirelings.

BayardSPSR
2016-04-10, 11:39 PM
The players are all new to D&D, and aren't really motivated as much by gaining experience and leveling up as long-time players would be. Some of them come from video games, and their normal method of adventuring is to seek out quest-givers with money to pay them. Most of the dungeon plot hooks I've left haven't been in this category, which I think is part of the problem.

The four players are all enjoying the game at different times and in different ways: one player likes digging up lore about the world, one likes interacting with NPCs a lot, one is mostly just hanging out with the rest of us (which is fine, no problem there), and the last one seems most comfortable when things are moving at a good pace (i.e. in combat). Their favorite encounter I ran was a one-session quest where they investigated a cheese-monger's basement for rats and he locked them inside, demanding gold, and they had to fight their way out. I'm still getting used to their play styles, but I think a longer combat-focused mission with strong plot ties is at least worth a shot. My goal isn't to force combat on them, it's to keep the pace up so everyone can be engaged. Combat is just one way to do that, so maybe "bad combat to non-combat ratio" wasn't the right phrasing.

Most of the characters have specific and interesting quest hooks built into them (the wizard sold his soul and wants it back, for example). There have been cool moments when they've followed these hooks, but I kind of want to save them for later. I'm really impressed with the players; they all made really interesting characters on the first try, which is awesome.

If they're motivated by plot hooks that are relevant to their characters, then that's how you need to hook them, rather than leaving bundles of XP and hoping they pick them up. Based on your posts, I can't figure out how combat-oriented they - or you - want the game to be. It sounds like you're saying they want a dungeon crawl, but don't want a dungeon crawl; and that you're happy they're enjoying roleplaying, but also wish for their sake they would stop and play the game.

Kol Korran
2016-04-11, 01:17 AM
This sounds more like problem of pacing, players wanting to play it safe, and you... allowing that.
Not an accusation, but judging by your description, it sounds like the party can pretty much seek "jobs" at their leisure, and nit pick what they want to do. (Pretty much what many video games entail). If the players don't go searching for Mount Doom, well, no matter. It'll wait there till they do. No pressure...

If you want to change the pacing, and the sense of danger, you need to be active. Have the world not be static and waiting, but engaging.
I suggest 3 simple ways to do so:
1. If the players don't go to the adventure, then the adventure comes to them!
The horde attacks the PCs village/ town,
A weird magic phenomena warps the library they are in, the captain of the guard makes a small coup, proclaiming them now belonging to a different nation/ religion, barricading the town, a few dangerous beasts escape from the festival endangering the streets, somdone frames/ tries to blackmail a PC, wyverns (+riders?) Start making raids on the town, a close friend of them is accused of murder, A strange ritual warps their local, with beasts from the shadows/ infrastructure rising/ outsiders coming from everywhere.

Don't just have them pick an adventure at their leisure, have one pick THEM.

2) Keep the pressure: Few adventure sites and monsters just sit and wait till the party engaged them at their own time. Have somebody of a threat keeping the pressure, an outside force, something that keeps them moving, or else... enable them to gather some info, interact a bit, but also make it very clear that action is needed. Adventuring is rarely a safe occupational, and yout can rarely just pick your own time and circumstances.

If the cultists aren't stopped in 5 days, a major demon incursion will happen.
The plague is spreading, some have died, how many more before you find a solution?
The enemy is gathering allies, weapons and magic. The longer you let it roam, the stronger they'll become.
The omens of the last prophecy slowly emerge. 4 have already manifested, there are but 8 more...
You got 3 days before the trial, and the evidence so far is againat you.
The city is on fire, and it's spreading rapidly...

3. Consequences of inaction. Refusing to face a menace may have recreations. Have the players know that.
You didn't wish to face the sorcerer ettin? Well, it's powers developed, and he gained a chimera and a band of folks to worship him, and they just captured and enslaved that village you went through.
You wish to go find the sword of power now? Well, should have done it sooner! As you reach the dungeon, someone already cleared it, and that sweet sweet loot, sword included.
Didn't want to face the thieves guild? Well, it grew in numbers, and the lovely town now seem to be in their grip, and the place starts to become the worst you could imagine.
Didn't want to face the necromancer? Well, guess who just got a big undead army on the march?

Another way, a less extreme way, is to hurt the party's pride and reputation.
Party: "We wish to take this job."
Quest giver: "Wait, aren't you the guys that turned down X and Y? Thought it was too dangerous?"
Party: "Um... "
Quest giver: " Sorry, I don't know if I can trust you to follow it through, I need guys who don't run away when faced with a little danger".

Or simply the crowd/ someone who suffered because the party didn't deal with something following them shouting "cowards!" Or other... unflattering comments...
-------------------------
Have the adventure come to them.
Keep the pressure.
Have in world consequences for inaction.

Keep them on their toes, keep them moving, keep the world alive.

Hope this helps,
Kol.

BayardSPSR
2016-04-11, 07:17 PM
Have the adventure come to them.
Keep the pressure.
...
Keep them on their toes, keep them moving, keep the world alive.

If Kol Korran's understanding of the problem is accurate, then it might be worth having something ready to have happen whenever the table dies down and there's a spoken or unspoken "what now?"

Gildedragon
2016-04-11, 07:25 PM
If Kol Korran's understanding of the problem is accurate, then it might be worth having something ready to have happen whenever the table dies down and there's a spoken or unspoken "what now?"

Ghostwalk's ghost template.

Segev
2016-04-12, 09:33 AM
"That sounds dangerous, let's not go there" means that the danger outweighs their motivation. It sounds, to me, like you need to provide more incentive.

So put, for example, the path to the wizard's soul straight through a dangerous dungeon. If he wants his soul back badly enough, he'll want to brave the danger. Work in whatever else you need to make it something he can persuade the others with which to help him. Perhaps the same thing that is going to help recover the wizard's soul is a deep secret of the world, which should intrigue your lore-explorer.

I doubt your combat-lover is shying away because it "sounds too dangerous" unless he only likes curb-stomp battles in his favor. In which case, give him a few that the party won't object to, and close the more dangerous fights behind them. Be careful, though; you don't want to be vindictive nor adversarial about this. If they won't have fun with the fights, don't force them. It sounds like they're pretty good at working their way around ones they don't want to plow through, though, so you're probably fine.