The Snake Charmer: An Optimized Beastmaster Build

[orcafromthesky]

After some thought and quite a bit of feedback, I've altered the build a bit. I think it works much more smoothly now!

Hi! I like coming up with flavorful outside-the-box character builds. Here's my latest: "The Snake Charmer", a bounty hunter who specializes in harvesting and inflicting poison damage. Let me know what you think!

Race: Stout Halfling
Ability Scores: (using standard array)


Starting:
STR 8
DEX 17
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 8

Final:
STR 8
DEX 20
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 8


Background: Modified Outlander (Bounty Hunter origin).
Skill Proficiencies: Animal Handling, Survival, Perception, Nature, Stealth (once you take levels in Rogue). Expertise goes to Nature and whatever other skill you might want (I chose Survival).
Tool Proficiencies: Poisoner's Kit, Musical Instrument (Flute).
Languages: Common, Halfling (plus Favored Enemy languages).
Weapons: Light Crossbow, Rapier, Whip.
Armor: Studded Leather, Shield.

Classes:


Ranger (Beastmaster): 17 levels
Fighting Style: Archery.
Animal Companion: Giant Poisonous Snake.

Rogue (Thief): 3 levels
Expertise: Nature, any other skill.


ASI Progression: Crossbow Expert, Athlete (+1 Dex), +2 Dex, Sharpshooter.

HOW IT WORKS:
The build revolves around utilizing our Giant Poisonous Snake companion as (1) a damage source in combat and (2) a farming source for Serpent Venom.

There are three big obstacles to making this work: keeping our snake alive, farming the poison itself, and keeping our ammo coated in poison during combat.

1: Keeping our snake alive. The original version of this build dipped into Sorcerer for Mage Armor, in order to boost our pet's AC, but it's been suggested that barding might be a better option. With a Strength of 10, the Giant Poisonous Snake can't wear plate barding (which would cost 6000 gp anyway, jeez), but studded leather would work almost as well as Mage Armor, since the snake has a whopping 18 Dex. With studded leather barding, the snake's AC becomes 16 + our proficiency bonus. Wowza. Damage mitigation is helped at later levels by spells like Stoneskin and Absorb Elements (once Share Spells kicks in).

2: Harvesting Serpent Venom. According to the rules on harvesting poison (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMG_257_8.pdf), the snake needs to be incapacitated, and we need a DC 20 Intelligence (Nature) check. Anything under a 16 subjects us to the snake's poison (this is the primary reason we chose Stout Halfing: for advantage on poison saves, and resistance to poison damage!). If the DM lets us harvest poison after the snake has gone to sleep, then the first requirement isn't an issue. If we need to be more creative, then the build becomes Beastmaster 16/Rogue 4 for the extra ASI: Ritual Casting (Druid) for Feign Death. The Intelligence (Nature) check is made much easier with Expertise, especially since our Intelligence isn't that high. With double our proficiency in Intelligence (Nature), we're likely to score at least a few vials full of Serpent Venom before we bed down for the night (and if we accidentally poison ourselves, we have a very good likelihood of making the save with Stout Resilience).

3: Keeping our Ammo Poisoned: According to the poison errata (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DMG_Errata.pdf), Serpent Venom wears off after one hit, which makes using the venom in melee almost impossible. Luckily, we can coat up to three pieces of ranged weapon ammunition at a time. This is the reason why we took 3 levels of Rogue for the Thief subclass: the Fast Hands ability, which allows us to, among other things, use the bonus action provided by Cunning Action to take the Use an Object action. Meaning we can coat 3 pieces of ammunition with a bonus action! Since we're letting our snake do most of the attacking anyway, and we only fire off one shot per round, we only need to sacrifice one bonus action every 3 rounds to coat our ammunition. Not bad.

(Note: I very consciously chose not to use a Hand Crossbow in this build. Bestial Fury only lets us take one attack when we command our snake to attack, so we don't get the extra bonus action attack. Plus we're probably already using up all of our bonus actions, what with Cunning Action & Exceptional Training.)

COMBAT:
Once we reach Ranger level 11 and get Bestial Fury, things really start to get fun. On our turn, our attacks look like this:

Light Crossbow: 1d8 + DEX + 3d6 (Poison, DC 11, save for half) + 1d6 (Hunter's Mark) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack)
Snake (x2): 1d4 + PROFICIENCY + 4 + 3d6 poison (DC 11, save for half)

Beast Bond (from the Elemental Evil Player's Companion (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf)) gives our snake advantage on attacks against any creature we can see that is within 5 feet of us. If we're worried about our snake taking too much damage, we can Ensnaring Strike our target (assuming it has a 5 ft. reach) and let our snake attack at range (Giant Poisonous Snakes have a 10 ft. reach).

Once we max Dex and Proficiency, average DPR (assuming our target fails their saving throws) would be:
(1d8 + 5 + 3d6 poison + 1d6 + 2d6) + (1d4 + 10 + 3d6 poison)*2 = 76.5 average DPR (86.5 if we use Sharpshooter). If our target makes all 3 saves, that damage is reduced to 65.5 average DPR (75.5 w/SS). If our target makes all 3 saves and has resistance to poison damage, that damage is reduced to 60 average DPR (70 w/SS). Here's the Anydice link (http://anydice.com/program/8200) for those totals.



We're not the greatest damage dealer -- but we're holding our own. We have decent AC (17 w/o shield), without any movement or stealth restrictions, and our snake gets an AC of 22 once we max proficiency bonus. The build has some pretty obvious weak spots: poison resistant/immune monsters, for example. But we also fulfill our out-of-combat Ranger role really well. Better than most single-class Rangers, actually, considering we have expertise in Nature (and another skill!).

RP wise, I love this guy. Killing somebody with a giant snake is just badass, plus the poison harvesting makes it even cooler. We can provide our whole party with poison, and sell our excess to provide some additional income.

I think that's everything. Thanks for reading! Any and all feedback is welcome.

[SharkForce]

afb, but I think sorcerers don't actually get find familiar. in any event, ritual casting as a wizard would mean you don't need the sorcerer level at all since find familiar is a wizard ritual (which is handy, because it really isn't doing much for you). or, you could just grab magic initiate (wizard) and keep ritual casting in druid spells.

in any event, as a venom farm I'd recommend flying snake over giant snake. it doesn't have reach, but it does have flight and fly-by attack. on the down-side, you can't ride it :P

[PeteNutButter]

afb, but I think sorcerers don't actually get find familiar. in any event, ritual casting as a wizard would mean you don't need the sorcerer level at all since find familiar is a wizard ritual (which is handy, because it really isn't doing much for you). or, you could just grab magic initiate (wizard) and keep ritual casting in druid spells.

in any event, as a venom farm I'd recommend flying snake over giant snake. it doesn't have reach, but it does have flight and fly-by attack. on the down-side, you can't ride it :P

Yeah I'd drop the sorcerer level altogether. You could probably buy barding for your companion instead of mage armor, better yet just mount the snake and take mounted combat. That'll keep him kicking.

Cool build though. Consider throwing in 2 more levels of rogue to take the thief subclass so you can apply your poison to your blade as a bonus action.

The Feign Death thing might be a bit overkill. While its a cool trick, can't you just harvest your snake while he sleeps?

[PoeticDwarf]

Not a bad build. There were many ideas about getting snakes and farm the poison so it isn't new. But it will probably work out well

Note: 20 AC is not awesome but expected for this level PC often
Note: the damage is nice, the HP/AC is nice but an optimized hunter has about 70-80 DPR and magic weapons won't work for your beast as they do for the Hunter. The Hunter has more HP and I wouldn't think this is better

[orcafromthesky]

afb, but I think sorcerers don't actually get find familiar. in any event, ritual casting as a wizard would mean you don't need the sorcerer level at all since find familiar is a wizard ritual (which is handy, because it really isn't doing much for you). or, you could just grab magic initiate (wizard) and keep ritual casting in druid spells.

in any event, as a venom farm I'd recommend flying snake over giant snake. it doesn't have reach, but it does have flight and fly-by attack. on the down-side, you can't ride it :P

The rules on poison harvesting specifically say that you have to harvest from a Giant Poisonous Snake to get Serpent Venom. Doesn't mention Flying Snake anywhere that I can see, so I'm not sure that would work without a house rule. You're totally right about Find Familiar, though. Forgot about that! I'm still a recovering 3.5 player, so I make those mistakes sometimes. I'll edit that out.


Yeah I'd drop the sorcerer level altogether. You could probably buy barding for your companion instead of mage armor, better yet just mount the snake and take mounted combat. That'll keep him kicking.

Cool build though. Consider throwing in 2 more levels of rogue to take the thief subclass so you can apply your poison to your blade as a bonus action.

The Feign Death thing might be a bit overkill. While its a cool trick, can't you just harvest your snake while he sleeps?

Yeah, I thought about the Fast Hands thing. I would definitely go that route if I were doing ranged damage mostly, but I don't think it's worth the Ranger levels lost.

I went with Feign Death and Mage Armor because I couldn't buy that (1) a sleeping snake, even your animal companion, wouldn't wake up and get irked if you tried to milk its poison, and (2) that you could attach barding to a giant snake. I mean, how could you strap it on without impeding the snakes method of propulsion? It doesn't make sense to me. Also, even if I could milk the snakes poison while it slept, I don't like the idea of having to wait around for it to fall asleep in order to do it. Feign Death means you'll be able to harvest it whenever you want.

The Sorcerer level adds Mage Armor to your spell list, while Magic Initiate just gives you Mage Armor once per day. I liked the idea of having the versatility to cast Mage Armor more than once, in case our encounters were spaced more than 8 hours apart. It's really hard to keep a Beastmaster's companion alive, so the build needs all the damage mitigation it can get. Also, 1 level in Draconic Sorcerer gives you +3 to your base armor (and scales!), which is awesome. Means we can get plate-level AC without wearing armor at all, which I like, especially since we only have an 8 STR.

Anyway, those were my reasons. I'm glad you thought the build was cool! I'll be posting more in the future, I imagine. I have an idea for an "Educated Barbarian" that I want to try out.


Not a bad build. There were many ideas about getting snakes and farm the poison so it isn't new. But it will probably work out well

Note: 20 AC is not awesome but expected for this level PC often
Note: the damage is nice, the HP/AC is nice but an optimized hunter has about 70-80 DPR and magic weapons won't work for your beast as they do for the Hunter. The Hunter has more HP and I wouldn't think this is better

Glad you like it! Yeah, I got the idea from some other posts lying around, but I didn't read anything that addressed the whole needing-to-be-incapacitated-in-order-to-harvest-poison thing.

And yes, an optimized Hunter would deal more damage. I didn't want to optimize a Hunter, I wanted to optimize a Beastmaster! This is the most damage I've seen for a Beastmaster build (but I'm sure there are better ones out there).

[JoeJ]

The Feign Death thing might be a bit overkill. While its a cool trick, can't you just harvest your snake while he sleeps?

The snakes in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaJh15LgcP8) don't look like they're sleeping.

[PoeticDwarf]

Glad you like it! Yeah, I got the idea from some other posts lying around, but I didn't read anything that addressed the whole needing-to-be-incapacitated-in-order-to-harvest-poison thing.

And yes, an optimized Hunter would deal more damage. I didn't want to optimize a Hunter, I wanted to optimize a Beastmaster! This is the most damage I've seen for a Beastmaster build (but I'm sure there are better ones out there).

Yeah, actually you could just go flying snake (or giant frog if you want so). You could harvest poision and still take a level 1 rogue dip (did you count sneak attack?). You would with crossbow expert and sharpshooter deal 3d6+30+14+6d4. Already 69.5 damage per round as beastmaster. Giant frog could restrain opponents which is really strong btw. With hunter's mark the DPR would become 76.5. With a +2 weapon which you will have probably on this level it becomes 80.5 (you could even ignore your beast at this point) and you could harvest poison still. Everyone can take the same feat/dips so that you are better out of combat is not really true. And just harvest it if the snake sleeps. Athough this is safer and a smart trick

[orcafromthesky]

Yeah, actually you could just go flying snake (or giant frog if you want so). You could harvest poision and still take a level 1 rogue dip (did you count sneak attack?). You would with crossbow expert and sharpshooter deal 3d6+30+14+6d4. Already 69.5 damage per round as beastmaster. Giant frog could restrain opponents which is really strong btw. With hunter's mark the DPR would become 76.5. With a +2 weapon which you will have probably on this level it becomes 80.5 (you could even ignore your beast at this point) and you could harvest poison still. Everyone can take the same feat/dips so that you are better out of combat is not really true. And just harvest it if the snake sleeps. Athough this is safer and a smart trick

How the hell did I forget about Hunter's Mark and Sneak Attack? I need to get more sleep.

Poison doesn't really work for ranged weapons, though. Why? Because you can only coat 3 pieces of ammunition at a time, and it takes an action to apply poison -- which really, really sucks. You could go Rogue 3 for Thief and Fast Hands, which lets you apply poison as a bonus action, but then you lose (75% of the time) your bonus attack from Crossbow Expert. That's why I opted to go melee.

You can't harvest poison from Flying Snakes without a house ruling. A Giant Frog could be fun, but then you lose poison -- and frogs are wayyy squishier, considering they have much worse AC. I think I'll stick with Giant Poisonous Snake. I already have ways to immobilize opponents as a ranger.

Including Hunter's Mark and Sneak Attack, my build (if the target fails their poison saves) ends up at 75 average DPR (before magic weapons), which is pretty comparable to what you're suggesting.

[PoeticDwarf]

How the hell did I forget about Hunter's Mark and Sneak Attack? I need to get more sleep.

Poison doesn't really work for ranged weapons, though. Why? Because you can only coat 3 pieces of ammunition at a time, and it takes an action to apply poison -- which really, really sucks. You could go Rogue 3 for Thief and Fast Hands, which lets you apply poison as a bonus action, but then you lose (75% of the time) your bonus attack from Crossbow Expert. That's why I opted to go melee.

You can't harvest poison from Flying Snakes without a house ruling. A Giant Frog could be fun, but then you lose poison -- and frogs are wayyy squishier, considering they have much worse AC. I think I'll stick with Giant Poisonous Snake. I already have ways to immobilize opponents as a ranger.

Including Hunter's Mark and Sneak Attack, my build (if the target fails their poison saves) ends up at 75 average DPR (before magic weapons), which is pretty comparable to what you're suggesting.

Doesn't poison wear off after a hit:smallconfused:

And without poison as I said is the DPR still huge. And your DPR is comparable but you need to apply poison ^

And flying snake wasn't a suggestion for you but improves my DPR. Giant grogs are great with average DPR

[orcafromthesky]

Doesn't poison wear off after a hit:smallconfused:


No, it lasts for 1 minute. Not long, I know, but long enough for most encounters.

[PeteNutButter]

The snakes in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaJh15LgcP8) don't look like they're sleeping.

I think it's pretty clear the having monsters be dead or asleep to milk their poison was a bit of an oversight by the authors. They either had no idea how poison was milked IRL, and/or didn't even consider that a PC would try and milk a friendly beast for poison.

Its a minor thing, but most DMs would probably be willing to alter the rules slighty. BUT most DMs will probably limit your harvesting of poison to a maybe once a day. That's what I'd do. It's a creature, it only can make so much a day. After a while its shooting blanks.

[PeteNutButter]

How the hell did I forget about Hunter's Mark and Sneak Attack? I need to get more sleep.

Poison doesn't really work for ranged weapons, though. Why? Because you can only coat 3 pieces of ammunition at a time, and it takes an action to apply poison -- which really, really sucks. You could go Rogue 3 for Thief and Fast Hands, which lets you apply poison as a bonus action, but then you lose (75% of the time) your bonus attack from Crossbow Expert. That's why I opted to go melee.
You can't harvest poison from Flying Snakes without a house ruling. A Giant Frog could be fun, but then you lose poison -- and frogs are wayyy squishier, considering they have much worse AC. I think I'll stick with Giant Poisonous Snake. I already have ways to immobilize opponents as a ranger.
Including Hunter's Mark and Sneak Attack, my build (if the target fails their poison saves) ends up at 75 average DPR (before magic weapons), which is pretty comparable to what you're suggesting.
The DMG pg 258 says all about harvesting poison. It does not include or exclude any type of creature or animal. If it has poisons you can milk it.



I went with Feign Death and Mage Armor because I couldn't buy that (1) a sleeping snake, even your animal companion, wouldn't wake up and get irked if you tried to milk its poison, and (2) that you could attach barding to a giant snake. I mean, how could you strap it on without impeding the snakes method of propulsion? It doesn't make sense to me.


I'm no armorer, but its fantasy. I pictured layered linking plates, like a finger of a gauntlet, or maybe just drape some chain over top of it. It doesn't even matter though. It could have an AC of 1 if you are riding it, and it only come up if you are forced off it.

[Specter]

Taking a Sorcerer level just for Mage Armor seems lame in terms of RP. I would go for 3 rogue levels for Assassin (or, if you really care about Mage Armor, Arcane Trickster). And if you don't really care about 5th level ranger spells, go Rogue 4 for extra CON or a feat.

About Expertise, Survival would already have a doubled bonus on your terrains, so maybe it will see some redundancy. You should also ask your DM if Nature would have that doubled bonus on the snake (it's an animal from your terrain, after all).

Nice work, though.

[Crgaston]

Taking a Sorcerer level just for Mage Armor seems lame in terms of RP..
I disagree, since Sorcerer is something that happens to you. Its never a conscious decision to become a sorcerer. Maybe the reason the character is so interested in scaly things is that there's this tiny bit of draconic blood lurking in him... Just enough to give him scales and a few minor powers but not much more than that.

[R.Shackleford]

No, it lasts for 1 minute. Not long, I know, but long enough for most encounters.

I believe there was an errata for poison.

[mrumsey]

Couldn't you also replace Sorcerer and Rogue for a 2-dip in Warlock?

Pact of the Tome would give you 3 cantrips (Guidance could replace expertise - Nature) and also (at level 2) give you 2 free rituals and the ability to cast any other rituals you may come across in your travels. 3 spells known and 2/day isn't horrible, especially on short-rest refresh. The fact that these could also be combined with Ranger spells (cast in Warlock slots) could add a bit of flexibility in your day as well (more cure light wounds!)

Additionally, you could pick up Mage Armor at will for your second invocation. This would mean your snake's Mage Armor won't come online until share spells, but it may be worth it for the extra ASI/Feat not spent on Ritual Caster.

Grabbing ArchFey could fit thematically, and you don't have to grab eldritch blast at all (to keep with your poison flavor).

[Crgaston]

Re: poison... It lasts until wiped off or delivered via a hit per DMG pp 257-258. So you'd have to reapply via Cunning Action after every hit.

[R.Shackleford]

Couldn't you also replace Sorcerer and Rogue for a 2-dip in Warlock?

Pact of the Tome would give you 3 cantrips (Guidance could replace expertise - Nature) and also (at level 2) give you 2 free rituals and the ability to cast any other rituals you may come across in your travels. 3 spells known and 2/day isn't horrible, especially on short-rest refresh. The fact that these could also be combined with Ranger spells (cast in Warlock slots) could add a bit of flexibility in your day as well (more cure light wounds!)

Additionally, you could pick up Mage Armor at will for your second invocation. This would mean your snake's Mage Armor won't come online until share spells, but it may be worth it for the extra ASI/Feat not spent on Ritual Caster.

Grabbing ArchFey could fit thematically, and you don't have to grab eldritch blast at all (to keep with your poison flavor).

Expertise blows guidance out of the water and Cunning Action is almost required for poison users.

Fey Warlock would be great with ranger, I'm going to build a character around that idea but for OP Rogue levels are too good to pass up.

[mrumsey]

Expertise blows guidance out of the water and Cunning Action is almost required for poison users.

Fey Warlock would be great with ranger, I'm going to build a character around that idea but for OP Rogue levels are too good to pass up.

No one said Guidance was better than Expertise. Also, his original build didn't have Cunning Action, so it didn't seem to be a requirement. He said he wanted to do a lot of things for flavor, not pure DPS/mechanical reasons.

Warlock gave a good flavor and easy replacements to what he already suggested while freeing up an ASI in ritual caster and allowing more flexibility in rituals available to the player. It seems a perfectly legitimate option given the parameters of the OP.

If he were to change his mind and add in Cunning Action, it would change his whole build and suggestions could/would be different.

I'm not sure if 18 BM is required, or just filled in to put the build to 20 after getting all of the multi-class options taken care of.

I guess what I'm saying is that without further input from OP, there are a lot of options available to meet the needs/desires as presented, and with the emphasis on flavor and fluff, minimal dips may be more preferable (though I agree that a 3 dip isn't horribly deep, but 4 without an ASI may be a decent hit - especially during the leveling process).

TLDR: I agree that expertise and cunning action are better mechanically, but that may not be the end goal - and to that point (mechanically) non-optimal choices are still equally valid.

[GraakosGraakos]

I always thought BM Ranger 5/Land Druid everything else was a flavorful, fun snake man. Summoning snakes, special (Awakened once you get it) pet snake, and lots of critters and shamany stuff to go with it.

[TentacleSurpris]

Why do you need Feign Death on the Serpent? Isn't it incapacitated while sleeping naturally? Snakes do have to sleep. Train it not to wake up.

Edit: You're using it so you can put it to sleep anytime. in that case, remember you're a snake charmer. Snake charmers play a flute and make snakes go to sleep. That's something you can do with training (Animal Handling). Casting the ritual takes 10 minutes. Just give it a big meal and play a lullaby.

Double Edit: To fully optimize this character, he must be named Jake the Snake Roberts.

[Waffle_Iron]

Warlocks choose a pact at level three, not level two. Additionally, the pact does not automatically include the ability to learn rituals. That must be selected as an invocation. AFB right now, but I believe the earliest it's available is warlock five.

[TentacleSurpris]

No, it lasts for 1 minute. Not long, I know, but long enough for most encounters.

Incorrect. This was updated in errata here: http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DMG_Errata.pdf

However the basic poison in the PHB was not erratad, so it would seem it remains potent and continues doing damage for 1 minute.

[Addaran]

Warlocks choose a pact at level three, not level two. Additionally, the pact does not automatically include the ability to learn rituals. That must be selected as an invocation. AFB right now, but I believe the earliest it's available is warlock five.
You can switch one invocation when you level. For exemple, my warlock needed comprehend language for RP reason, so he had the spell. Level 2 i switch the spell and get the Rune Keeper invocation (weak invocation that i won't mind losing next level) then at 3, i switch Rune Keeper for Ritual Book (one ritual being comprehend language)

"Additionally, when you gain a level in this class,
you can choose one of the invocations you know and
replace it with another invocation that you could learn
at that level."

[orcafromthesky]

Incorrect. This was updated in errata here: http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DMG_Errata.pdf

However the basic poison in the PHB was not erratad, so it would seem it remains potent and continues doing damage for 1 minute.

Well, that puts a bit of a damper on this build.

It doesn't kill it, though. I think the way to go, then, would be ranged over melee, since you can coat up to three pieces of ammunition at a time. If you took three levels of rogue for Fast Hands, and let your pet take two attacks per round through Bestial Fury, you'd only have to use a bonus action to poison new ammo once every three rounds (since you only use one piece of ammunition per round). Which sucks, but it isn't that big of a loss when it comes to action economy.

I'll edit the original post.

[PeteNutButter]

With your updated build it seems like it'd make more sense to drop ranger levels in favor of more rogue. If you are only making on attack a round, why not make it count. If you go 12 Ranger/8 Rogue you lose some spells, and share spells and some other junk, but pick up more sneak attack dice. 2 more sneak attack dice up your DPR by 7, and you get more expertise, uncanny dodge, and evasion.

Share spells is nice, but absorb elements doesn't work RAW, since its a reaction that triggers when you take damage, not your pet. You couldn't react with a shield spell on your paladin mount.

Stoneskin is costly and by the time you get it as a ranger, your probably facing enemies with magic weapons, making it costly and a complete waste.

[djreynolds]

This could be cool.

PAM and the snake is coiled around the polearm like a caduceus. Or shoot snake arrows like in Conan.

Heck you survive 17 levels as a beastmaster, I'd let you do it.

[PoeticDwarf]

Re: poison... It lasts until wiped off or delivered via a hit per DMG pp 257-258. So you'd have to reapply via Cunning Action after every hit.

KNEW IT:smallbiggrin: