How important is concentration on spellcasters?

[magicalmagicman]

I'm running into massive skill point shortage even as a human with 14int, so I need to dip somewhere. Is concentration really that important? I mean, it's only use is non-interrupted spellcasting when you get hit by an AoO, but if you never get hit you don't need concentration right? So you can afford to allocate half your skill points from concentration to other skills right?

Edit: How important is spellcraft on a non wizard full caster?

[Zanos]

You need concentration to make checks to cast defensively, which is probably the most critical usage.

[Troacctid]

Let me put it this way. Needing a Concentration check to cast a spell is a way, way more likely scenario than not having the material components to cast a spell.

[magicalmagicman]

You need concentration to make checks to cast defensively, which is probably the most critical usage.

In your experience, does this come up often? On a pure caster that is, not a gish. Isn't 5-foot step enough most of the time?

[bahamut920]

I'd say it's definitely more important on the more martial casters (clerics, druids, duskblades, hexblades, and any gish builds) than on a "pure" caster like a wizard, sorcerer, or archivist. Still, there's probably going to be a point where you're either in melee or grappled by someone, and you really need to get off that teleport spell to get away. As long as you're fine with "losing" a spell every now and then, you can sacrifice a bit of Concentration, or even say "screw it" and put the skill points somewhere else. There are other ways to escape grapples (anklets of translocation, boots of swift passage, freedom armor or shield enhancement, etc), and you can just take a "withdraw" action to get out of somebody's reach (as long as you're at the edge of it) without provoking.

I recommend putting enough points into it to auto-succeed casting defensively on the highest spell level you can cast, but Con items and skill items (a +5 competence skill item and a +2 masterwork tool go a long way, and both are dirt cheap; a solid investment for a caster) can make that number lower than you think.

[Zanos]

In your experience, does this come up often? On a pure caster that is, not a gish. Isn't 5-foot step enough most of the time?
This varies highly depending on how mean your DM is. It's possible to be in a situation where 5 ft stepping won't remove your from every enemies threatened area, or the enemy could simply have reach.

[magicalmagicman]

I have greater blink and greater dimension door so I think grapples are not an issue. I believe both get me out of a grapple at will as long as I cast them before I get grappled.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Depends. If the DM never puts encounters anywhere interesting and pretends the readied action doesn't exist you can get by without it if you're not a gish.

If the DM might occasionally put an encounter on a boat, airship, or wagon; uses weather or unexpected terrain hazards; or has NPC's smart enough to ready an action to disrupt casting then it becomes utterly indispensible.

So, how creative is your DM?

[ksbsnowowl]

This varies highly depending on how mean your DM is. It's possible to be in a situation where 5 ft stepping won't remove your from every enemies threatened area, or the enemy could simply have reach.

Or if you find yourself in an environment that has difficult terrain (forest with light undergrowth, dungeon with rubble), then you CAN'T 5-foot step.

Also, as a DM, there have been many times when my PC's have not been able to 5-foot step away from enemies, because they are backed up against a wall or other impediment, half-surrounded by enemies, etc.


You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

[heavyfuel]

If the DM [...] has NPC's smart enough to ready an action to disrupt casting then it becomes utterly indispensible.


This is the biggest one for me. Hitting a DC 15+Spell Level to cast defensively is pretty easy, especially with Concentration boosting magical items. But if your DM is using readied actions, it becomes so much more difficult to justify not getting Concentration when the DC is 10+Spell Level+ Damage. You can be expected to reasonably pass DCs 30 by lv 5, which doable, but much harder if you have 0 ranks, especially if your DM likes Martial Adepts, who can ready their maneuvers.

Note that melee characters with readied actions don't much care about your 5ft Step, as they can take one themselves during their readied action.

[Zanos]

For what it's worth, I play a lot of Roll20 3.5 games with random folks and have yet to encounter a DM who used readied actions to force concentration checks for spellcasting. Your mileage may vary.

[magicalmagicman]

All of them are excellent points. I can't duck out on spellcraft either because I need it at 24 at level 21 in case I go epic...

Alright so +8 from gear. +5 from tunic of steady spellcasting, +3 from the constitution one, and this will make me able to beat DC 10 and DC15 concentration stuff, but still not good enough for DC15+Spell level.

Ok, I'll just duck out on spellcraft until I get a reasonable concentration, then dedicate all of my skill points to catch up at the final few levels.

OK! So new question now is... how important is SPELLCRAFT on spellcasters early levels? Other than for qualifying epic spellcasting, I don't really see a point on a non-wizard.

[Zanos]

Spellcraft is actually not especially critical. It's primary purpose for non-wizards is identifying spells cast by enemy spellcasters.

[DrMotives]

[QUOTE=bahamut920;20646173 (a +5 competence skill item and a +2 masterwork tool go a long way, and both are dirt cheap; a solid investment for a caster)[/QUOTE]

I get that masterwork tools can exist for every skill, but what sort of item is your concentration tool? In game, I mean.

[magicalmagicman]

Spellcraft is actually not especially critical. It's primary purpose for non-wizards is identifying spells cast by enemy spellcasters.

Alrighty I'll dump that early and then scramble to max it late.

[bahamut920]

I get that masterwork tools can exist for every skill, but what sort of item is your concentration tool? In game, I mean.
Ritalin? :smalltongue:

I have to admit, it is one of the skills that's more difficult to think up an item for. So maybe we need to wander off of "realistic" items and into the realm of the "fantastic". Maybe our hypothetical masterwork Concentration tool is something like a small, nonmagical necklace or choker (not the aberrant kind) that constantly presses a pressure point at the base of the skull which causes heightened ability to focus or something.

[Kelb_Panthera]

All of them are excellent points. I can't duck out on spellcraft either because I need it at 24 at level 21 in case I go epic...

Alright so +8 from gear. +5 from tunic of steady spellcasting, +3 from the constitution one, and this will make me able to beat DC 10 and DC15 concentration stuff, but still not good enough for DC15+Spell level.

Ok, I'll just duck out on spellcraft until I get a reasonable concentration, then dedicate all of my skill points to catch up at the final few levels.

OK! So new question now is... how important is SPELLCRAFT on spellcasters early levels? Other than for qualifying epic spellcasting, I don't really see a point on a non-wizard.

Outside of scribing to a spellbook, spellcraft isn't that critical unless you're worried about proper counterspelling, as opposed to dispel magic counterspelling.


I get that masterwork tools can exist for every skill, but what sort of item is your concentration tool? In game, I mean.

A well shaped worry stone; a small rock, precisely sculpted to fit comfortably in the hand with a depression for stroking wth the thumb, typically made from a very smooth type of stone or semi-precious gem. Take it in hand, stroke the thumb depression, and use the tactile sensation to steady your thoughts.

[PoeticDwarf]

Well, it's important, but if you say what skills you want we can see what better is overall

[Fizban]

If you and your party are tactical gods you might avoid concentration. If you're lucky. Until you get hit with any damage over time effect. The less you have to face your opponents the better, so line/cone spells you can fire through fog effects and summons or AoEs you can fire from around a corner are your best bets.

Spellcraft is necessary for identifying enemy spells: if you don't care you don't need it, but you should always care. Identifying spells is fairly easy at only 15+spell level. This means +23 is enough to auto-succeed everything up to 9th (not counting possible penalties for not seeing/hearing components), and identifying ongoing or esoteric magical effects is only DC 30 so +23 is a reasonable shot.

The masterwork tool entry is not carte blanche to get any skill boost. You're supposed to work the other direction, imagine a tool and then figure out what skill it boosts (and if it boost multiple skills then multply the price, see Thieve's Tools for example), and that price is only used so long as the tool is otherwise easy to produce (precision optics and performance enhancing drugs are not easy to produce, see Spyglass and alchemical items). I believe there are a couple alchemical and/or drug items that boost concentration but they weren't good enough to warrant inclusion on any of my lists so eh.

[heavyfuel]

Every single DM I've ever had, even before Pathfinder was a thing, used similar rules to it, and allowed Spellcraft checks to identify magic items. Definitely a houserule, but in my experience, a fairly common one. If your DM is one to use this houserule, I'd say Spellcraft is invaluable as you don't have to spend an entire hour IDing items, which can be troublesome in the middle of a dungeon or somesuch. YMMV

[magicalmagicman]

Spellcraft is necessary for identifying enemy spells: if you don't care you don't need it, but you should always care. Identifying spells is fairly easy at only 15+spell level. This means +23 is enough to auto-succeed everything up to 9th (not counting possible penalties for not seeing/hearing components), and identifying ongoing or esoteric magical effects is only DC 30 so +23 is a reasonable shot.


Right, so like, 23 skill point investment isn't a huge investment right?


Well, it's important, but if you say what skills you want we can see what better is overall
Fluff stuff.

[Zaq]

Magic is the strongest thing in the game. Concentration makes your magic work when it otherwise wouldn't. Spellcraft lets you know what kind of magic other people are using (not just identifying spells being actively cast by your enemies, but also identifying existing magical effects), which allows you to make informed decisions about how to apply your own magic in a manner appropriate to the situation.

I dunno about you, but both of those things seem pretty darned important to me. Will you need both of them in every single encounter? With most GMs, probably not. But it's still pretty useful to have both of them.

Of course, a party can survive with only one Spellcraft expert as long as that one Spellcraft expert doesn't have cursed dice, so if there's another party member who's willing to be the Spellcraft person, you might be able to outsource it. Still, it doesn't hurt to have two chances to identify what's going on.

[Âmesang]

Every single DM I've ever had, even before Pathfinder was a thing, used similar rules to it, and allowed Spellcraft checks to identify magic items. Definitely a houserule, but in my experience, a fairly common one.
Not exactly a houserule, actually; both the Magic Item Compendium and the Rules Compendium allow one to identify the properties of magic items (including existing command words and remaining charges) by making a Spellcraft check after identifying the item's aura via detect magic (effectively a Spellcraft DC of 25 + ½ the item's Caster Level).

I'd like to imagine that arcane sight, being essentially a "greater detect magic" of sorts, would enable a similar identification check. Just look at the item, identify it's aura, and subsequently identify its properties.

[Fizban]

Right, so like, 23 skill point investment isn't a huge investment right?

Alright so +8 from gear. +5 from tunic of steady spellcasting, +3 from the constitution one, and this will make me able to beat DC 10 and DC15 concentration stuff, but still not good enough for DC15+Spell level.
:smallconfused:

If you're going to selectively ignore your own options then why bother asking?

[Troacctid]

Of course, a party can survive with only one Spellcraft expert as long as that one Spellcraft expert doesn't have cursed dice, so if there's another party member who's willing to be the Spellcraft person, you might be able to outsource it. Still, it doesn't hurt to have two chances to identify what's going on.

One of the nice things about having a Sorcerer or Wizard as your Spellcraft expert is that you essentially double up on Spellcraft experts for free, because their familiar shares their skill ranks. Especially true if you have an imp or coure familiar with Detect Magic as a spell-like ability.

[ksbsnowowl]

OK! So new question now is... how important is SPELLCRAFT on spellcasters early levels? Other than for qualifying epic spellcasting, I don't really see a point on a non-wizard.

For non-Wizards, early levels, Spellcraft isn't all that important. By the mid levels, though, it becomes important. Once you start plane hopping, and running up against the impeded magic trait, Spellcraft becomes important for nearly every caster. Here is but one example:

Impeded magic. Spells that use or generate light or fire may fizzle when cast on the Plane of Shadow. A spellcaster attempting a spell with the light or fire descriptor must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the level of the spell). Spells that produce light are less effective in general, because all light sources have their ranges halved on the Plane of Shadow.I've seen numerous Druids in my tenure as DM get screwed when the party started adventuring on the Plane of Shadow.