Concept: To spread heresy, for good?

[Xuldarinar]

Couple of weeks ago I was toying with a concept, and only now have I decided to share it to get some sort of reception on it. It is rooted in the idea that through worship a deity can be changed.



An order (don't read as Cavalier order, though one could brew such a thing) forms that promotes heretical views of malevolent deities and demigods, trying to sell them as good entities while moving to wiping out their evil followers, labeling them as the heretics. While Sifkesh is the most frequently worshiped in the order, both due to her portfolio consisting of heresy which befits their cause and that they seek to convert her, they seek to have individuals who worship various other malevolent gods while presenting them as otherwise. Any aspect of an evil deity or demigod's portfolio that can be presented as benevolent, they cling to and promote as good.

[khadgar567]

Couple of weeks ago I was toying with a concept, and only now have I decided to share it to get some sort of reception on it. It is rooted in the idea that through worship a deity can be changed.



An order (don't read as Cavalier order, though one could brew such a thing) forms that promotes heretical views of malevolent deities and demigods, trying to sell them as good entities while moving to wiping out their evil followers, labeling them as the heretics. While Sifkesh is the most frequently worshiped in the order, both due to her portfolio consisting of heresy which befits their cause and that they seek to convert her, they seek to have individuals who worship various other malevolent gods while presenting them as otherwise. Any aspect of an evil deity or demigod's portfolio that can be presented as benevolent, they cling to and promote as good.

so Xuldarina what you are saying is if enough people worships torm as god of carnage he may change the profile to become more bloodtirsty and lose the old profilo

[Xuldarinar]

so Xuldarina what you are saying is if enough people worships torm as god of carnage he may change the profile to become more bloodtirsty and lose the old profilo

The theory goes; If a heresy becomes more common than the orthodoxy, then it may become the orthodoxy. The sins of followers can corrupt a deity (or atleast a demigod), that much has been established. This hinges on the idea it can go the other way.


The only thing I know of that may contradict this is Pelor of the Burning Hatred.

[khadgar567]

The theory goes; If a heresy becomes more common than the orthodoxy, then it may become the orthodoxy. The sins of followers can corrupt a deity (or atleast a demigod), that much has been established. This hinges on the idea it can go the other way.


The only thing I know of that may contradict this is Pelor of the Burning Hatred.
hey turning lawful good guardian of justice to chaotic evil god of carnage needs major worshiper change on the plot hook scale put some cultists and you have an adventure hook worth of several books and if you turn some one like torm might well as turn bunch of them to vestiges

[Jack_Simth]

The only thing I know of that may contradict this is Pelor of the Burning Hatred.To be fair, it may just be that it was done to Pelor, or is in process, hence some of the relics and items not making sense with how he's currently perceived.

[Xuldarinar]

To be fair, it may just be that it was done to Pelor, or is in process, hence some of the relics and items not making sense with how he's currently perceived.

That actually makes perfect sense. I like that.

[Gildedragon]

It is a great idea.
Also quite dig how it meshes with the Burning Hate conspiracy.

Example: Erythnul
Original portfolio: Hate, Envy, Malice, Panic, Ugliness, Slaughter
Original domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Trickery, War

Changes into:

Hatred -> Hatred of evil and imperfection (ie good and improvement)
Envy -> Desire for self betterment and self transformation
Malice -> Determination, boundless motivation, ruthlessness in the fight against Evil
Panic -> Apotropaic aspect (make Evil afraid), the drive for change, divine ecstasy/altered states of consciousness, self preservation & the fear of change (and rejection of that fear)
Ugliness -> Apotropaic (as Panic), rejection of vanity, hardship of self betterment, wabi-sabi, form before function
Slaughter -> ruthlessness, (self) sacrifice, proselytism, ritual bloodletting or self scaring, rejection of the material and ephemeral, destruction of evil

Chaos: self transformation, breaks with imperfect law and old orders, rejection of imposed/received wisdom, individual struggle for Good
Destruction: vanquishing of Evil, bringing down of corrupt power structures
Evil-> Good
Trickery: this one is harder to change, ideas welcome
War: ibid

Portfolio and Domains end up mostly untouched but the way those aspects are interpreted is completely flipped. Erythnul becomes not a god of slaughter but of self transformation and protection; his priests are a bulwark against evil and tyranny. He remains a very martial and physical god, but metaphysical aspects are emphasized. Aesthetically he promotes or embodies either function-before-form or a sort of appreciation of the humble and unpretentious: that which is cracked and mended shows value because it saw through its damage/troubles/imperfections (being broken) and became whole again, functional, perfect.

[Psyren]

I think it's more likely that, rather than change the deity itself, your splinter sect would actually be supported by/have spells granted by another deity in secret.

There are some deities that I just don't see being changed, even if all their mortal followers were to somehow go off the rails. The ones who predated mortals in particular would fall under this. Think of the likes of Asmodeus and Lamashtu - nothing their followers did would change their basic nature, because (a) the universe needs that concentration of evil to exist somewhere and (b) a lot of their followers consist of monsters that wouldn't change even if the core races did. Then there's the likes of Rovagug and Nethys - in other words, insane, and the attention (or lack thereof) of mortals don't have any effect on the at all.

Even if you could make an argument for shifting a deity in this way, all I would see that doing is opening a vacuum. Say you moved Norgorber away from being the God of Secrets and Assassins - well, those two things still need to exist, so the most you would manage is causing another entity to take up those portfolios instead. Maybe Norgorber would patronize the more neutral side of assassination (i.e. keeping wars from starting and such) but the "murderer-for-hire" and "serial killer" aspects would still need representation by someone. The resulting vacuum might even corrupt an existing good or neutral deity.

[Gildedragon]

I think it's more likely that, rather than change the deity itself, your splinter sect would actually be supported by/have spells granted by another deity in secret.

There are some deities that I just don't see being changed, even if all their mortal followers were to somehow go off the rails. The ones who predated mortals in particular would fall under this. Think of the likes of Asmodeus and Lamashtu - nothing their followers did would change their basic nature, because (a) the universe needs that concentration of evil to exist somewhere and (b) a lot of their followers consist of monsters that wouldn't change even if the core races did. Then there's the likes of Rovagug and Nethys - in other words, insane, and the attention (or lack thereof) of mortals don't have any effect on the at all.

Even if you could make an argument for shifting a deity in this way, all I would see that doing is opening a vacuum. Say you moved Norgorber away from being the God of Secrets and Assassins - well, those two things still need to exist, so the most you would manage is causing another entity to take up those portfolios instead. Maybe Norgorber would patronize the more neutral side of assassination (i.e. keeping wars from starting and such) but the "murderer-for-hire" and "serial killer" aspects would still need representation by someone. The resulting vacuum might even corrupt an existing good or neutral deity.

Or give rise to a lesser, niche, deity; or distribute the domain among a lot of gods. Ditto for stuff like Asmodeus' Evil, the evil could make one or a handful of his lesser to get promoted, or it might be distributed giving a rise to legions of smaller fiends.
Also not everything is patronized by a god, serial-killer clerics might be fueled by an "ideal" rather.

[The Viscount]

The other thing here is that the deities have their own thoughts and agendas, so don't automatically change to reflect their worshippers. There are instances of deities changing their portfolios, but these are from the deity's choice.